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Suit seeks damages from gun shop that sold gun that killed 7-year-old

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flaminlib Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:48 PM
Original message
Suit seeks damages from gun shop that sold gun that killed 7-year-old
Edited on Sun Apr-18-04 06:51 PM by flaminlib
---
A civil lawsuit filed against a South Williamsport gun shop could be the first to go to court that would hold gun dealers accountable when criminals get their hands on guns, lawyers say.

In April 1999, 7-year-old Nafis Jefferson was fatally shot by another 7-year-old with a revolver they had found under an abandoned car in South Philadelphia.


Police never determined who put the gun under the car, but they learned it came from a gun shop in South Williamsport that sold it for $200 to a straw buyer who illegally resold it on the black market.


That sale and Jefferson's death has spawned a lawsuit, scheduled for trial in July in Philadelphia Common Pleas Court, that could break new ground in Pennsylvania in holding gun shop owners responsible for allegedly negligent and irresponsible sales practices, even when they have complied with state and federal laws.


Someone without a criminal record who can pass a computer background check can buy a pistol from a willing gun dealer in a matter of minutes and immediately resell the gun on the street.
---

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=11342424&BRD=...



Now this is ridiculous. Not only is this 5 years old, but the gun shop clearly upheld the law. I smell money grubbers!

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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Open and shut.
If the gun was originally sold legally then re-sold illegally, then case closed. Once the gun is transferred from the store to the first buyer, it is the total responsibility of that buyer.
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flaminlib Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Straw buyer.
That is the only chance they have. If they prove the gun shop knew it was a straw buyer, they can win. Without that, they lose.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Funny, the odor is coming from the gun store...
"The man who bought the gun, Perry J. Bruce, bought 10 similar small, easily concealed handguns from Sauers between 1994 and 1997. Bruce, of Williamsport, held a permit to carry a gun.
Each time he bought a gun, Bruce illegally resold it. The buyers were criminals who were barred from owning guns, The Philadelphia Inquirer reported in its Sunday editions.
In October 1997, Bruce was charged by federal authorities in Williamsport with gun trafficking. He pleaded guilty in 1998 and was sentenced to three years and 10 months in prison."

Wonder if Bruce is going to testify?
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OpSomBlood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Depends on the situation.
If the store was aware that Bruce was participating in this activity but sold to him anyway...then yes, the store should be held liable.

But the purchase of ten handguns over the course of three years isn't very unusual. It's not the store's responsibility to mark their customer's buying habits on a calendar and track them.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrre....
"But the purchase of ten handguns over the course of three years isn't very unusual. "
Well, you got one right at last....

"Washington, D.C. -- Most American gun dealers surveyed in a new study are willing to engage in illegal sales to "straw buyers" seeking to purchase guns on behalf of others. More than 50 percent of dealers surveyed said they would sell a handgun regardless of who the end user is if a prospective purchaser says that the end user is someone who "needs it," according to a study published today in the June issue of Injury Prevention.
The study, "Buying a handgun for someone else: Firearm dealer willingness to sell," was conducted by Susan B. Sorenson and Katherine A. Vittes, of the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) School of Public Health, and published in the July issue of Injury Prevention, a scholarly journal.
The study showed that some dealers "appeared willing to ignore or sidestep relevant information even when told that the end user was prohibited from purchasing a firearm." Some 52.5 percent of dealers who were asked if a caller could purchase a handgun for a boyfriend or girlfriend "because he/she needs it" said yes."

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/alerts/reader/0%2C2...

"The City of Detroit and Wayne County joined the legal fray Monday to slow gun violence by suing firearms manufacturers and dealers after officers posing as felons and underage buyers easily bought guns during stings.
Officials said gun makers and dealers use the strategy of "willful blindness" to maintain an illegitimate gun market.
Between March 24 and April 14, undercover teams from the Wayne County Sheriff's Department, Prosecutor's Office, airport police and private investigators posing as juveniles and convicted felons tried to buy weapons at 10 licensed gun dealers. Those trying to buy the guns told the dealer they were underage or a felon. The buyer's friend, the straw purchaser, would use his name on the paperwork. Nine dealers sold guns in illegal straw purchases.
One dealer told the officers such a straw purchase was highly illegal. Another joked about teenagers being shot. Charges against the gun dealers are being considered, Ficano said."

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/qguns27.htm

"The suit came after a 1999 sting operation revealed police officers made nine successful "straw" purchases at local gun dealers. The illegal practice of straw purchases involve people buying a gun with the intent of transferring it to a convicted felon or other person forbidden to have one.
The argument centered on the responsibility of the gun manufacturers and dealers for the crimes committed by gun buyers and users. More than 240 crime-related guns could be traced to one dealer, Westforth Sports Inc. in Gary, Seibel said.
He said there is a "tight connection between the manufacturers' conduct and dealers' conduct and harm to the city" that the businesses don't attempt to stop. Handgun violence has created a general fear to use public places and has diminished property value, he said.
"The supply of guns is like a toxic cesspool the city must clean up," Seibel said."

http://www.thetimesonline.com/articles/2003/02/28/news/...

"Riverside police officer Mike Pelissero survived his close call with a weapon sold illegally by B and E Guns. A drug suspect fired at him and missed--then the gun jammed.
At least two homicide victims were less fortunate, killed by guns that reached the street through B and E of Cypress, which operated for years despite repeated violations of federal law. The gun merchant, formerly one of the state's highest-volume dealers, had illegally falsified records to conceal transfers of thousands of firearms, according to court documents and records obtained by The Times under the Freedom of Information Act.
The B and E case and others like it show how unscrupulous dealers, with the imprimatur of a federal firearms license, can be enablers of gun violence on a large scale. Such dealers can be difficult to put out of business or to prosecute, and when convicted they can expect far more lenient treatment than the crooks who buy their wares."

http://www.nisat.org/blackmarket/north_america/united_s...
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Ten handguns over three years?
Not unusual, I've purchased eight from one shop in a little over two years.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I rest my case....
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. And what case would that be?
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FatSlob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. He doesn't have one.
Unless he is insinuating that I am an illegal dealer. If he were to be insinuating that, I would then insinuate that he is an assclown. However, I will do no insinuating until then.

Now, moving on to legitimate discussion, I would be interested in seeing the models of handguns that this alleged sleaze purchased. It would aid me in forming my opinion about his alleged sleaziness. This would be very relevant as three or four purchases of nearly identical guns would surely be an indication of straw purchasing, but not proof, as I purchased four of one model because I liked them so much. I would like to follow this case to see what happens. If he is guilty, I hope he has fun in prison.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. law schools, and what they're for
If the store was aware that Bruce was participating
in this activity but sold to him anyway...then yes,
the store should be held liable.


One useful purpose those law schools serve is to ensure that there are some people in the world who actually know what civil liability law is all about.

That way, nobody has to get his/her legal opinions from people who say things like the thing quoted above (which of course is quite correct, apart from the fact that it's so very incomplete).

Kitchen table gun dealers, kitchen table lawyers ...

Do you practise medicine on that kitchen table too?

.
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. The difference between you and me
Edited on Mon Apr-19-04 01:24 PM by demsrule4life


The professor of a contract law class asked one of his better students, If you were to give someone an orange, how would you go about it?
The student replied, Heres an orange.


The professor was outraged. No! No! Think like a lawyer!

The student then replied, Okay. Id tell him I hereby give and convey to you all and singular, my estate and interests, rights, claim, title, claim and advantages of and in, said orange, together with all its rind, juice, pulp, and seeds, and all rights and advantages with full power to bite, cut, freeze and otherwise eat, the same, or give the same away with and without the pulp, juice, rind and seeds, anything herein before or hereinafter or in any deed, or deeds, instruments of whatever nature or kind whatsoever to the contrary in anywise notwithstanding...

I just give the orange, much easier in the long run.
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flaminlib Donating Member (243 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. How?
"Funny, the odor is coming from the gun store..."

Im quite sure Bruce will be made to testify but, how does anything implicate the gun shop?
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. No case
If NICS approved the guy NO CASE
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. Maybe we should ban hospitals.........
Estimated Annual Mortality and Economic Cost of Medical Intervention

*Condition
*Deaths
*Cost
*Author

Adverse Drug Reactions
Deaths 106,000
$12 billion
Lazarou, Suh

Medical error
Deaths 98,000
$2 billion
IOM

Bedsores
Deaths 115,000
$55 billion
Xakellis, Barczak

Infection
Deaths 88,000
$5 billion
Weinstein, MMWR

Malnutrition
Deaths 108,800
Nurses Coalition

Outpatients
Deaths 199,000
$77 billion
Starfield, Weingart

Unnecessary Procedures
Deaths 37,136
$122 billion
HCUP

Surgery-Related
Deaths 32,000
$9 billion
AHRQ
-----------------
Total
Deaths 783,936
$282 billion

---------------------

They are obviously more dangerous than guns



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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Wow....
Guess that's that amazing RKBA "logic"
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Give Polly a cracker
BAWK! BAWK! BAWK!

More from a REAL threat in our country......

http://books.nap.edu/books/0309085438/html/79.html

Nosocomial infections account for 50 percent of all major hospital complications (Becker et al., 1987). Up to 2 million Americans every year-1 in 20 of all those admitted to hospitals-contract such infections (MMWR Weekly, 2000). In 1995, nosocomial infections cost $4.5 billion and contributed to more than 88,000 deaths, translating to 1 death every 6 minutes (Weinstein, 1998).

http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m0FSL/3_77/99237602/...

Patient deaths resulting from hospital-acquired infections are seriously underreported in the United States, according to a Jan 22, 2003, news release from the Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO).

The CDC estimates that more than two million patients per year acquire infections in US health care facilities while being treated for other illnesses or injuries, and more than 90,000 of these infections result in fatality.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. and in other news
So what *is* the price of tea in China these days, anyhow?

Well, I asked Google.

I got Kenya ...

http://www.bisnetworld.net/bisnet/countries/kenya21.htm

However, in 1998, with world coffee prices holding steady, a further decline of 26% in the volume of coffee exports resulted in a marked fall in export values. Over the same period, tea exports have fared far better : although tea production in 1998 was the virtually the same as in 1996, the improvement in world tea prices led to a 45% increase in the value of exports.
And Pakistan ...

http://www.sbp.org.pk/reports/annual/arFY02/chap3.pdf

... selected commodities of importance in Pakistan's trade basket along with the changes in their international prices during FY02. This importance becomes clear from the fact that during the FY02, Pakistan imported edible oil of US$ 393.0 million, tea of US$ 156.6 million and crude oil of US$ 1, 230.8 million.
And Japan, and a few other places ... and finally, China.

http://www.chinaonline.com/estoreNew/Consumer_Goods/AA0...

And now, if someone can explain what

- staph infections transmitted to individuals seeking necessary medical care, even if negligently (an allegation I don't even see being made, let alone substantiated)

have to do with

- firearms negligently or intentionally transferred to individuals who intend to resell them to criminals

... then I'll tell you what the price of tea in China has to do with ... well, anything you like.

.
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Wubbman Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Please provide gun death figures for comparison-nt
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. Say,wubb....
Going to tell us what you found out about Nugent and Pratt in that other thread?
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Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
14. So you're saying.......
That the adverse (and often unavoidable) side-effects of medical treatment kill more people than guns, therefore there is nothing wrong with current gun laws and we shouldn't do anything to address the misuse of firearms until hospitals are infallible?

I mean seriously, I'm confused here......

Proving that more people die in hospital than in car crashes/drug binges/gun incidents doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything about those other things.

Apple meet orange...

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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. Not quite
Most anti-gun zeolots are that way simply because they are lacking sufficient stimulus from the larger world in which we live.

I have merely provided a new shiny bauble to distract their tiny reptilian brains.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. gosh

That was sure a successful ploy.

"Success" would have to be measured against some standard that I'm not familiar with, for that to be true, of course.

.
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Liberal Classic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-04 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
13. Does this bear any relation to
http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=1793387

Nevada woman sues Coors over son's death in accident

Reno, Nevada-AP -- The mother of a Nevada 19-year-old killed in a traffic accident is suing Coors Brewing Company.
Jodie Pisco's lawsuit claims that Coors promotes underage drinking.

The lawsuit says Ryan Pisco was killed in 2002 after he drank Coors at a party and drove his girlfriend's car into a light pole at 90 miles-per-hour.

...

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. She should really be suing the maker of the car
There is no legitimate reason for anyone in the US to have a passenger car that goes 90 MPH. Car makers are encouraging reckless driving by selling cars that can go that fast.
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Muddleoftheroad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. You really must be kidding
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. Sorry, should have added a :freak:, :dunce:, or :argh:
:freak:, :dunce:, :argh:
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Romulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. not really
take the anti-gun-owner "public health model" logic to its conclusion, and that's what you get. Along with a ban on "unfettered access to high-caloried pastries."
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