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So the Gungeon was wrong about Egypt? Well, *some* of it was:

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:41 PM
Original message
So the Gungeon was wrong about Egypt? Well, *some* of it was:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/07/egypt-milit...



Egypt's military will have final say on country's new constitution
Scaf generals say they will have final approval over new political system, whatever the outcome of the election



Jack Shenker in Cairo guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 7 December 2011 13.46 EST


Egypt's ruling generals have put themselves on a collision course with the country's new parliament after declaring that MPs will not have the final say over the drafting of a fresh constitution.

The revelation is likely to escalate tensions once again between the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces (Scaf) and an increasingly confident Muslim Brotherhood, which looks set to dominate the new assembly once voting is completed and parliament opens for business, in March.

Millions of Egyptians have flocked to the polls in recent days to elect parliamentary representatives, whose primary role is to appoint a special body tasked with drawing up Egypt's first post-Mubarak constitution. But after initial results indicated that political Islamists will form a majority in the new chamber, the military has moved swiftly to rein in their powers and ensure its own well entrenched political and economic privileges remain intact under any future civilian government.

In a rare interview with foreign media, Major General Mokhtar el-Mulla a leading member of Scaf said the upcoming parliament would not be representative of all Egyptian people, and that those appointed to write a fresh constitution must also be approved by the interim cabinet and a newly-created "advisory council" of intellectuals, civilian politicians and media personalities, both of which fall under the control of Scaf...


Let's review, shall we?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Egyptians prove gungeon is wrong

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Egypt proved there is no need for a 2nd amendment

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...


However, a few of us knew what the 411 was. For example:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Egypt "proves" that a government with a monopoly of force will abuse its power


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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Let's bring it back to the United States of America...
Do you really think that the pea shooters that the average citizen has will prevail against SWAT teams, predators and smart bombs? And who will organize this resistance to the government abuse of power? And when will you take it into your hands to shoot a cop when they come knocking on your door with a piece of paper that says you are a terrorist?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Who says they have to?
Remember the chaos and fear that two guys shooting out of the trunk of a car caused in DC?

Who says that action has to be symmetric? Who says it'd be all of "A" v all of "B"?

That's what always tickles me when someone compares today's military to your average gun owner, as though they'd line up in nice rows and shoot at each other.

*snort*
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. No there would be no nice lines...there would be you all alone...
and a predator dropping a small smart bomb on you. Poof!

I gather that you think you will be an Al Qaeda type, melting into the shadows after you ambush the cops.

You are very, very brave.
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. Demand answers, and justice!
"No there would be no nice lines...there would be you all alone and a predator dropping a small smart bomb on you. Poof!"

Demand answers from the government as to why they could have smart bombed mohammed/malvo and didn't. :eyes:
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I can only resond with two questions:1. On what date does Victory in Iraq Day fall on?
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 04:05 PM by friendly_iconoclast
2. How much air power does the Taliban field?
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I don't understand your post. the Iraqis and the Taliban LOST.
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We_Have_A_Problem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. You may want to let them know that
They're still acting like the fighting is still going on.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
21. Booked a vacation in Afghanistan, now that it's all nice and peaceful since the Taliban are gone?
Edited on Wed Dec-07-11 09:40 PM by friendly_iconoclast
Let us know how that works out...
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. weak sauce strawman.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. As long as we're recycling posts: "Um, that isn't a magic word that makes you win arguments."
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-09-11 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. diversion; another logical fallacy.
you're two for two so far.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. What 'diversion'? The Taliban are still in Afghanistan, and the US will leave.
Iraqi fighters are still there, and we're all but gone. Who was it that 'lost', again?
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #10
26. Says who?
We are fighting them even now. We will leave and they will still be there.
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atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Have you bothered looking
The types of guns that the average citizen can acquire are pretty vast, and your concept that the entire military will follow orders and attack or even kill civilians, especially when some of those very same civilians could be family members, is painting with a broad brush.

The way that the military has been treated as nothing more then cannon fodder by the power that be doesn't garner a whole lot of loyalty...so who do you think will win a company of M-1 Abrams tanks or the Capitol police guarding the US Congress?
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Last I checked, various rebel groups in Algeria, Vietnam, Cuba,
Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., didn't have warships, helicopters, drones, smart bombs, B-1s, or even heavy artillery. How did they do it with their "peashooters?"
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. weak sauce strawman.
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We_Have_A_Problem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. Nope - it isnt.
War is not about body counts, tonnage of bombs, etc. It is about breaking the enemies will or ability to fight.

The Colonial Army lost nearly every single battle in the Revolutionary War, yet the British went home. Why? The British lost the WILL to fight.

The US military won nearly every single battle in Vietnam, and regardless of what Sheila Jackson Lee may have to say, North Vietnam won and forced South Vietnam to merge.

The USSR got its ass tossed out of Afghanistan but a bunch of technologically backward goat farmers in the 80s and the USSR didn't even give a damn about leaving a functional country when they were busy trying to beat the Afghans.

History is littered with examples of a small, extremely determined force winning wars against exponentially larger professional armies.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Um, that isn't a magic word that makes you win arguments. nt
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Even assuming all police and military against "civilians"....
80+ million gun owners in the U.S. (estimated) and I can guarantee that in a civil war the number/percentage would go up.

Assuming 3-5% of the population actually takes up arms.... How many actual rifle carriers in the military? (hint: something rather less than 25%. Probably less than 10%.) How many police? How many ex-military in the population that can pass on their skills to the completely untrained?

In terms of sheer numbers, it'd be a walkover for the civvies. But if the government actually starts using tanks and planes against U.S. civilians, you've got a whole butt-load of hurt coming down on the military. Widely dispersed, badly postured, in most respects, to even defend their own bases....

Seriously, do you know anything about military operations and insurgencies? It sure appears you don't.
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We_Have_A_Problem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Ah jeez, not this discussion AGAIN....
Those "pea shooters" are not any different than what a SWAT team carries. The military is not going to use area effect weapons on US citizens.


Will I shoot a cop with a warrant for my arrest for terrorism? If it were in a situation where that was essentially the same as being branded a Jew in 1930's Germany, then yes, without hesitation, Officer Douchbag would get a bullet in the brain.


There are ~300 million firearms in this country owned by about 100 million households. If only 1% of those HOUSEHOLDS, not people, were to resist, the combined non-support (i.e. active shooters) portion of all of the armed forces and police forces would be facing about a 15:1 disadvantage.

The people would run out of targets long before they'd run out of bullets.
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. let me guess: you read The Turner Diaries.
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We_Have_A_Problem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Nope - never have.
I simply understand numbers, asymmetric military operations and human behavior in general when you put someone's back against the wall.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. Let me give you some advice, if you haven't, don't.
It was absolute rubbish. I was given a copy by a fellow officer since it was relevant to our interests. You can't understand your opponent unless you walk a mile in their heads some times. What is amazing is that anyone smart enough to be able to read the thing would not be smart enough to realize that the world doesn't really work that way. There are people out there who have bought into that line of thinking on some level or another. Even though I have no doubt McVeigh would have killed someone without reading it there's no doubt he got his plan from it.
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
32. Associational fallacy.
Ooh, this game is fun!
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Maine_Nurse Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. And lets not forget...
that at any point in time, there are likely 5-10 times as many FORMER combat troops that are now civilians than there are current active and reserve combat troops. Not to mention how many current military and police would refuse orders against civilian US citizens.

Hell, the rural states like Maine, where hunting and former military service are common, would become the new Viet Nam.
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DWC Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-10-11 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
31. What would our military do?
Edited on Sat Dec-10-11 09:22 AM by DWC
I have never been more proud of my Brothers and Sisters-In-Arms

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=ira8...
H-DPQFOCYP90WuEqSRO3V-xBxClPaYwotpEh1jZxdQ9rVM5RFTWnH9OCXiuPe_8Zy6ygZn5Zy1cR
Zhm1pRJikgc2r9tyHWNn5BvsXkQjBs8ZrlkQVVevMlCHPPjqaeoC2KIkSWt5gmf6FPtFYlZ6wutJ523k7IkMOG_iv9aeccqjmIuiWxmNkk

MERRY CHRISTMAS
&
Semper Fi,
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. Oh, Christ, now the "wear a gun to public parks crowd" is going to save us from a rogue government.

I think votes are much more effective in this country, and I would be concerned that all the citizens grabbing their tactical weapons cache would actually be on our side. I think the majority of gun owners -- being TBaggers and right wingers -- would turn their guns on the rest of us as soon as possible.

Besides, this is certainly no justification for citizens carrying guns in public -- you can leave them at home until the revolution starts.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yawn.
Your record is broken again.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. And yours isn't? - answer to our problems, guns, guns, guns, more guns, can't live without my guns.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. And double yawn at your false strawman.
I hae never claimed guns are the answer to our problems, or that I can't live without my guns.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Unless you have an indoor shooting range, you *have* to take them outside
Not all of us are born to privilege- a fact you seem to forget...
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-08-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
24. I said all along...
that the military would demand a veto vote on any new government. Their business interests are too numerous and lucrative to not have a direct say in the running of the country. And I also said the military would mostly sit on it's back sides and let the revolution happen. The bloodshed was minimal compared to what's happening in Syria or Iran. And the Libyan experience was vastly different that what happened to Egypt. Nothing come out of Egypt is surprising in the least.
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