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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:07 PM
Original message
More guns to Mexico in the news.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u... /

(CBS News)

Selling weapons to Mexico - where cartel violence is out of control - is controversial because so many guns fall into the wrong hands due to incompetence and corruption. The Mexican military recently reported nearly 9,000 police weapons "missing."

Yet the U.S. has approved the sale of more guns to Mexico in recent years than ever before through a program called "direct commercial sales." It's a program that some say is worse than the highly-criticized "Fast and Furious" gunrunning scandal, where U.S. agents allowed thousands of weapons to pass from the U.S. to Mexican drug cartels.

CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson discovered that the official tracking all those guns sold through "direct commercial sales" leaves something to be desired.


I know that the CBS news is a right wing publication and all that with little credibility outside the tin foil wearers of the world but this story is really something. I always maintained that Direct Commercial Sales were likely not a source for U.S. arms to Mexico because of the State Department's oversight. Looks like I'm wrong. They weren't buying all those AR's and grenades at Arizona gun shows after all.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
1. And now, a message from a merchant of death
The National Shooting Sports Foundation's Larry Keane, who speaks for gun manufacturers , said he understands the potential for abuse.

"There have been 150,000 or more Mexican soldiers defect to go work for the cartels, and I think it's safe to assume that when they defect they take their firearms with them," Keane told CBS News.

But Keane said the sales help the U.S.

"These sales by the industry actually support U.S. national security interests," Keane told Attkisson. "If they didn't, the State Department wouldn't allow them."

"Do they need better oversight?" asked Attkisson.

"It's certainly for the State Department and the Mexican government to try to make sure that the cartels don't obtain firearms that way," he replied. "But that's really beyond the control of the industry."

---o---
"Dead kids, mothers' crying, not my problem" -- Larry Keane
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Deleted message
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Let me get this straight.
Its the NSSF's fault that the State Department and the DOJ are basically supplying the drug cartels with weapons and in addition its Keane's fault the Mexican police and military are corrupt?

Critical analysis taken to a new frontier.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. If Keane of the NSSF had the power to stop this, he would be President of U.S.
Do you want that? If this is unclear, ask yourself: "Who is responsible for these sales/losses to the cartels?"
You would be hard-pressed to avoid the answers:
(1) The U.S. government which DECIDES what/how many guns go to a foreign government; hence, "Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve."
(2) The astounding corruption of the Mexican government.
(3) The ill-advised gun-running policies of the U.S. government.
(4) The nearly insurmountable power of the cartels (courtesy of drug prohibitionists, here and in other countries).
(5) The obfuscation of these issues (courtesy of gun prohibitionists in the U.S.)

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. Kind of gave away the secret when they HAD grenades.
As well as full-auto M4 rifles in the SBR configuration, which aren't legal for civilian sale in the US.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. That part bothered me a lot.
I suspect the Mexican government is not proudly displaying some of the firearms they're seizing like they do on those photo ops that they try to make look like an Arizona Gun Show sales table. Here's a question. Do arms sold in direct sales through the State Dept. have to be marked as government property? Requiring them to be marked as property of whatever government agency that purchased them could make things very interesting.
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
3. Let's see...
We have the State and Justice Departments running guns to the cartels and the DEA acting as their money launderers. So according to some what we need to do is deprive law abiding citizens of the right to keep and bear arms.

Just adds to the list of things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I heard that Issa has told Holder to be prepared to discuss the DEA issue when he goes before the committee later this week. Gonna have to stock up on popcorn.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. "deprive law abiding citizens"....blah blah blah
Did you read the article?
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. And watched the video too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! n/t
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #4
8. And blah, and blah, and blah, blah, blah...
Read the article, got the T-shirt. These are sales to the Mexican military, sanctioned by the State Department. Let's try a little exercise in international relations, shall we?

"President Calderon? US State Department here. We've decided not to allow any more weapons sales to your military because they're corrupt and in bed with the cartels. Thanks, bye."

If I were conspiracy-minded, I might venture a guess that these sales were moved out from under Pentagon auspices in order to provide "plausible deniability" in case any of these weapons ended up in the wrong hands. Much easier and more politically expedient to blame the "merchants of death," right?
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. It looks as though the State Department
works a little more expeditiously than DoD. If I understand the deal, State lets Mexico deal directly with the manufacturers after the ok is given. Whereas the Pentagon would have to go through procurement and probably some type of funding to furnish the weapons.

From the OP article:

The problem of weapons legally sold to Mexico - then diverted to violent cartels - is becoming more urgent. That's because the U.S. has quietly authorized a massive escalation in the number of guns sold to Mexico through "direct commercial sales." It's a way foreign countries can acquire firearms faster and with less disclosure than going through the Pentagon.


Here's how it works: A foreign government fills out an application to buy weapons from private gun manufacturers in the U.S. Then the State Department decides whether to approve.


Hope this helps.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. You really did miss the connections
Edited on Tue Dec-06-11 03:33 PM by one-eyed fat man
Who approves weapons sales through direct military sales? The State Department. Who runs the State Department? Hillary Clinton. Which Secretary of State said reinstating the expired Assault Weapons ban is needed to stop sales to Mexico?

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009-03-26/news/1791781...

WASHINGTON - Secretary of State Clinton called for a new assault weapon ban in the U.S. on Thursday in hopes of cutting off arms flowing to Mexican drug gangs

The ATF is funelling arms to Mexico through a boneheaded operation called "Fast & Furious." Border Patrol agent gets killed by walked ATF guns by a "rip team" where the FBI and DEA have a CI who is a double agent. Who do all these clowns work for? An Attorney General who claims to know less than this guy?


But is certain all the cartels would be peacefully negotiating their differences if only the US renewed the expired Assault Weapons Ban?

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Holder said that putting the ban back in place would not only be a positive move by the United States, it would help cut down on the flow of guns going across the border into Mexico, which is struggling with heavy violence among drug cartels along the border.

The Justice Department and the State Department are responsible for funneling the most dangerous military grade hardware to the cartels, but you hold them blameless? Damn those lying wikileaks State Department memos...

Three South Korean K400 grenades were recovered in an abandoned armored car believed to have been used by traffickers as a getaway vehicle. The cable requests that U.S. Embassy officials in Seoul, discreetly query the Korean government regarding the whereabouts, disposition, and the possibility of any missing stocks, of South Korean-made grenades. Another Korean-made K75 grenade was thrown into a nightclub in Pharr, Texas on the U.S. side of the border, where the targets were three off-duty police officers. The grenade did not detonate.

Merchants of death?? Better than a consumer of stupid.

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. If it comes down to Holder or Clinton, Holder is toast. No way Hill will take the fall for this.
Holder's letter of resignation will be interesting reading- either for what it says, or what it doesn't say...
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Bum_Whisperer Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. He won't have to answer to it though.
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burf Donating Member (745 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I don't think taking the fifth is
gonna help his cause. If he tries the old ongoing investigation thing, I don't think that has much chance either. Too much of the story is already out there. His only recourse is to blame it on some overzealous employees and offer them up to save his own ass.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
14. Kicked and recommended n/t
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 10:13 PM
Response to Original message
16. resign, already. Holder!
sheesh.
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