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"It's a good thing Syria has gun control; otherwise the citizen-slaughtering troops could get hurt".

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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 06:15 PM
Original message
"It's a good thing Syria has gun control; otherwise the citizen-slaughtering troops could get hurt".
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 06:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. hunting rifles vs tanks mortars helicopters and machine guns
excellent suggestion. red dawn intoxication syndrome.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. new fake disease for the pharmaceutical industry to sell drugs on TV
If you remember, in Red Dawn the band of high schoolers replaced their hunting rifles with automatic weapons as soon as they could steal them. The thing about asymmetric (guerrilla)warfare, technology is not that big of an advantage. Arm chair generals talk about tactics while professionals talk logistics.
Guerrillas can and do take on an larger and technological advanced force effectively by stealth, concentrating on destroying communications and logistical capability. Once conventional combat forces are lose their supply and communication lines, they are less effective.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerrilla_warfare
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. And you might also remember, at the end of Red Dawn
Edited on Sat Jun-25-11 08:13 PM by RaleighNCDUer
all but two were dead.

ON EDIT

And those two survived by running away.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. the screen writer could have ended however he wanted, so what?
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. I used to twit RW war hawks by A) proclaiming "Red Dawn" a great American movie, and...
...B) telling them that PAL DVDs of it dubbed into Arabic should be distributed en masse in Iraq.


Most of them thought this was a great idea. At least at first....
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
34. *snort*
:rofl:
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Actually, Milius presented a fairly accurate depiction of guerilla warfare -
and part of that accuracy is that the majority of guerillas who go up against a fully engaged modern military will die.

Do you think that we have killed untold numbers of Iraqis and Afghanis simply because we are so good at it? Assymetrical warfare produces assymetrical results. Even in the American Revolution, the British killed more Americans than Americans killed British - the significant factor was they had to bring replacement 4000 miles, not 400.

And NO guerilla force has ever defeated a major military on its own - the Viet Cong couldn't have done a thing worth mention without NVA regulars backing them with Russian & Chinese weaponry.

Did you ever even watch Red Dawn?
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yes. And I've yet to see any guerilla war, anywhere, without outside support
Do you think that, were another one (God forbid) happen here, both sides wouldn't have outside support?


Part of the reason the Reds won the Russian Civil War was that the outside military intervention on behalf of the Whites was

a) half-assed at best, and b) quite unpopular amongst the war-weary populace of the nations that did intervene. The Romanovs

and their supporters were seen as a bunch of medieval throwbacks.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Years ago, I thought most of the character development sucked and
Edited on Sun Jun-26-11 12:13 PM by gejohnston
bored by a couple of cliches. The Cuban Officer and one of the girls were the only ones that showed any depth. It it is the kind of movie watch with the guys and some beer. How it became a pseudo documentary escapes me.
Out of the Iraqis and Afghans killed, how many were combatants and how many were minding their own business when the bombs dropped? Those are two separate numbers.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Hey, YOU'RE the one who brought up Red Dawn as an example
of how lightly armed civilians can take of a modern military. I was merely using YOUR example to describe the reality of guerrilla warfare - most guerrillas die, they almost never win, and they always need outside help. Oh, and the movie also points out, guerrilla warfare against an occupying force always results in high non-combatant casualties.

Funny how you can use the movie to prove your point, then turn around and dismiss it as being worthless. That kind of cognitive dissonance is almost Republican in scope.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. not really
I only used it because it is a movie most people have seen. Unfortunately, conventional warfare in or near urban areas or strategic bombing tends to have a huge civilian casualty rate. I never said you did not need outside help. That was assumed on your part.

The accuracy of it depicting guerrilla warfare has nothing to do with artistic qualities like characterization. The two are separate subjects in my mind. Kind of like a car having a good engine but shitty paint job.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #16
35. I think the question with Syria is... what will their army do?
If a guerrilla war breaks out there and it is sustained, it could well decimate the economy to the point that the central government cannot afford to field troops effectively.

Or the generals might decide it's time for a military coup.

The question of how well hypothetical Syrian rebels can negate the advantages of Syrian's modern military is also an open one, IMO.

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. I'm sorry, to what engagement does this documentary refer to?
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. If you have to die, might as well die shooting at your oppressors with whatever you have...
Chanting "Hey, Hey, Ho, Ho, Big bad Assad has got to go!" appears to have had limited success. Wolverines!! :o
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. sure, but you are still going to die and not going to inflict any real damage
against a well equipped and trained army. Last time I looked Syria has one of those. The Libyan rebels really didn't get very far without Nato intervention, as in they were about to get their asses kicked, and that was with access to decent equipment. Even with total air superiority, they are in a stalemate against the Libyan army.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. At least you'll die trying and on your feet, not groveling and on your knees...
And this scenario is as old as humanity. It has played out endlessly since the first person picked up a stone to kill another. Humans routinely make collective decisions to enslave or eliminate other groups of humans. It isn't "fair" but such is existence on our fine planet. Life is a drama with very serious consequences for those ending up with the short stick. So make sure your stick is a fire stick.
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discntnt_irny_srcsm Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. As Churchill said:
"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. So victory is assured in Afghanistan for America?
what chance does the Taliban have against a well equipped and trained army?
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w0nderer Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. can libya be assumed to follow restrictive ROE? can America? n/t
Edited on Sat Jun-25-11 09:53 PM by w0nderer
so far America can (in Araq and Afghanistan)
and are paying for it

edit -- clarification of where America can follow ROE
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Last time I checked, Canada was in charge of that operation.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
18. That's odd, drug cartels have seized control of much of Mexico with what they get from gun stores.
Or so we've been told....

Are you now telling us those, ahem, 'experts' are wrong?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. Much of it depends on the training of the rebels
Those that have it do reasonably well, those that do not die in droves.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. re mexico: MONEY not guns is what has taken over
Dear Ignored,

The drug gangs cannot and do not fight the mexican army if they can avoid it. They avoid it with massive corruption up and down the various levels of the mexican government. That was a seriously bad example of civilian weapons vs military.

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Better go tell the Afghanis.
They seem to have missed the memo.

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. The National Liberation Front (AKA the Viet Cong) got the memo, but ignored it.
The US and it's South Vietnamese allies had a decided technological advantage, with nearly complete air superiority.

And still lost....
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Lol
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. They gotta get out and use the bathroom sometime.
Someone has to bring them fuel. Someone has to put the fuel in it. Someone has to bring them food.

By itself, mobile armor does not hold ground.
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hack89 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
28. So why are dictators so hung up on gun control? nt
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
32. Thank you.
An excellent justification for civilian ownership of semi-automatic rifles and factory OEM 30 round magazines.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-25-11 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
14. You use small arms to capture bigger stuff...
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discntnt_irny_srcsm Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. I read this awhile back:
What can a pistol do?

On the other hand...
The Soviets deployed 115,000 troops to Afghanistan, 1 in 8 were killed.

They weren't fighting their countrymen, they fought foreigners on foreign soil.
American troops will not carry out operations to against other Americans.

But to rough out the odds:
There are over 80,000,000 gun owners in the US and they own 310,000,000 firearms.
More than half of all guns in private circulation worldwide are in the US.

If 2% of the gun owners are proficient as snipers, saboteurs and other aspects of guerrilla warfare,
and 3/4 of them are killed, captured or disabled, the remaining force would still be much larger than the
Mujahideen forces that opposed the Soviets...and be much more skilled.

A hypothetical force charged with occupying the US and subjugating its citizens could theoretically survive in a
non-demoralized state for more than 3 years but it would have the number in the billions.
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DWC Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Excellent post. we need more like it. n/t
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discntnt_irny_srcsm Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-26-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Well, thank you.
Glad to be of service. ;)
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-27-11 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Russia vs Finland 1939
Finnish "riflemen" captured Russian tanks, artillery, anti-tank weapons, anti-aircraft weapons etc. Items were in turn used on the Russians.



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