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Gun industry finally catching up to CC market demands, with real innovation.

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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:01 PM
Original message
Gun industry finally catching up to CC market demands, with real innovation.
Its refreshing to finally see the manufactures developing firearms the public has been demanding and waiting for. For years they just sat around offering the same full and medium sized offerings. They are great for home defense and OWB/IWB but not very conceable. Finally slimmer and lighter are gaining popularity among the engineers. I dont feel undergunned with a 6+1 single stack 380, but its nice to see big names stepping up to the plate with real compact offerings. Sure my M&P 9c is supposed to be a compact but its still somewhat hard to conceal.

Kel-Tec PF9
http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns /

Taurus Slim PT709
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/01/17/taurus-pt... /

Sig P290
http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p290.aspx

Kimber Solo
http://www.kimberamerica.com/solo/solo-carry/solo-carry

Ruger LC9
http://www.ruger.com/products/lc9/models.html

And a few extras

Glock 36 (45 acp)
http://www.glock.com/english/glock36.htm

Ruger LCP
http://www.ruger.com/products/lcp/models.html

feel free to add to the list, Ive only included a small sampling of the fine firearms we now have to chose from.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Smith J-frames have always been
Edited on Sun Jun-05-11 06:18 PM by pipoman
good, reliable cc handguns. The titanium frames of the last decade are even lighter than the old js. Models 638 and 642 were specifically manufactured as ccw for leos..

Oh, I like the Kimbers..I'll have to try out a solo even though I don't carry anymore.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I didn't include any revolvers, but you're right.
Edited on Sun Jun-05-11 06:19 PM by ileus
They've been around for a good while and the 38 is a great cartridge...


I'm in the market for a 686 or 586 now...but they're not quite CC sized. LOL
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I'm considering a Ruger KLCR57
A lot of punch in a small package.

Nice thing about a .357, is that I can practice using .38 special loads, and use .357 for defensive loads (of course it
would be in my best interest to practice with .357's as well).

http://www.ruger.com/products/lcr/models.html
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #8
24. I notice that model of the LCR is slightly heavier ...
It weighs 17.10 oz as compared to 13.50 oz for the .38 special.

Light weight snub nosed revolvers are fun to carry but are not pleasant to shoot. My S&W Model 642 weighs 15 oz and with .38 +P rounds the recoil is so strong that I have never had a person who asked to try the weapon on the range ever ask to try it again.


On the other hand my Model 60 .357 mag with a 3" barrel was a very popular gun on the range. That weapon which weighs 24.5 oz was enjoyed by everyone who tried it and most were amazed about its accuracy. I enjoy shooting .357 magnum rounds through this weapon more than I do .38 rounds through the Model 642


But the Model 642 is a fantastic pocket pistol and the model 60 is more of a holster weapon. The Ruger LCR also looks like a great pocket pistol.






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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
48. Yeah, my 638 isn't a fun shoot either
but back in my carrying days it was comfortable and I knew it would go bang every time I pulled the trigger.



I have been looking for a S&W M296...mainly for the novelty of it. A 2 1/2" titanium Airlite in 44 spl certainly isn't going to be a fun shoot either, I'm thinking ;)
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow, cool. So this is a hardware forum now?
Nothing like long steel.

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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. We're talking about compact polys mostly.
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That's fascinating. nt
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. As long as the hardware is about self-defense.
non-self-defense topics should be in the Outdoor Life Group or the Lounge.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. I thought this was the right place...
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. I think it is. It hasn't been moved, and I don't think it will.
:hi:
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
6. S&W 5906 & CZ 2075 RAMI
my two compact pistols
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
7.  Astra A-75, compact all steel 9mm. No longer in production. n/t
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. I googled it and couldn't find anyone saying anything bad
how does it run?
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
15.  Eats anything 9mm I feed it, shoots to POA with Fed. 124gr JHP Hydros.
Edited on Sun Jun-05-11 09:41 PM by oneshooter
Does what I ask of it. All steel so the recoil is very managable. Only trouble is finding a holster for it. I found one for a Colt Pony that fits well.

Not a 45, but smaller and managable for double taps.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. My boss has a 5906...real nice pistol.
He carries a G27 or LCP, the 5906 is his collectors item...I don't think he's ever shot it.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. I picked mine up at a gun show for 435.00(USD)
it was LNIB still in the original box it arrived at a FFL in Denver in may of 89 and I bought it in 2010. when I got it home I broke it down and it still had fresh cutter marks under the slide. It was basically a brand new gun. It's one of the only 2 nines I own

I'm looking for a S&W 4006 to round out my collection.
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burrfoot Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. Don't forget Kahr Arms!
Edited on Sun Jun-05-11 09:31 PM by burrfoot
I often drool over this little number...

http://www.kahr.com/Pistols/Kahr-PM9.asp



:evilgrin:







edit: typo
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. anything by kahr is worth drooling over....
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Talked to a dealer recently
Asked him what brand he sold more of for CCW. He said Kahr.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-05-11 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
17. I'm a revolver guy. One jam,......one funeral.
Edited on Sun Jun-05-11 10:51 PM by RagAss
Been carrying my Colt Detective Special since the mid-80's. Best .38 belly gun ever made.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. That's a beautiful firearm ...
I should have bought one when they were still being manufactured.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #21
41. I was so glad I spent the money for it back then...It was never a cheap revolver. $330 back then.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #17
27. Thousands of police departments disagree with you! n-t
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. They have tactical requirements....I don't.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
42.  I was a Range Safety Officer few years ago when a CHL class arrived to fire their Qualifications.
Among the 30 or so students there was an elderly woman(later I found out she was 78yrs old!)who has an elderly Colt DS. I say "elderly" as the serial number only had 3 digits! She shot a 85% and passed the requirements. Talking to her later she told me that the Colt had belonged to her late Husband, and his father before him! Both were retired HPD detectives.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Love it !
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right2bfree Donating Member (383 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
63. One gun, one funeral, you mean.
Yuppers
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #63
64.  I believe that he meant what he said. If you wish I can rewrite it .
Or you can learn reading comprehension.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
20. My short-list for this year is filled...
with a CMP M1 Garand, but I may see if I can't swing a Sig P290 around X-mas.
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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 11:55 AM
Response to Original message
22. To be fair, Kahr has been making small single stack pistols for ages
so it's not really anything new. The big difference is that the Kel-Tec PF-9 costs about half of what a Kahr does. Once companies realized that Kel-Tec was selling every pistol that they made, they decided to jump on the bandwagon. The idea of a slim, cheap semi-auto pistol is nothing new:



;)
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. funny how people won't spend the extra bucks for a life saving device...
And I'm the same...we all want a cheaper alternative to the Kahrs, sigs, kimbers of the world. It's hard to believe...
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. If you knew for sure that you would have to use the weapon ...
you would spend the extra bucks.

Most people who carry know that having to use your concealed weapon for legitimate self defense is unlikely.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. that may be why...
I carry a LCP often....Not that I don't have faith in it working when I need it, but I'm willing to accept the 380 round for self defense when out and about. When at home I always keep the 45 handy.

I've put about 1000 rounds of 380 down the pipe, and carry one HP chambered and the rest FMJ's just to be sure it will cycle.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. If I suspected that I would have to use a concealed firearm for self defense ...
I would first avoid such a situation if at all possible. If not, I would carry a .45 auto loaded as you suggest with a hollow point in the chamber and FMJ rounds in the magazine.

I usually carry my .38+P S&W Model 642 in my pocket because it's comfortable and the chances of ever having to use it are slim.





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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
39. I never really cared for the LCP
I got a chance to fire it when a Dr. I worked for took me to the range and for a little gun it kicks like a mule.

I'll stick w/ my 5906
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Light firearms are great for carry but are no fun to shoot ...
Edited on Mon Jun-06-11 07:03 PM by spin
I once went shooting with a former police firearms instructor and he brought a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 magnum. I brought a .38+P S&W Model 642 snub nosed revolver. We traded firearms and he commented, "Damn this little gun recoils just as much as my .44 magnum."

The recoil was similar, but I suspect the reloads he was using were not full power.


Ruger Super Blackhawk


S&W Model 642

The little snubbie S&W I carry weighs 15 ounces empty. His Ruger weighed 48 ounces.

edited for HTML error.



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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. It's a lot easier to justify a $250 purchase than a $500 one
Especially when the $250 item will work just as well as the $500 one. When they first came out, PF-9s and the various spinoffs had some issues, but those have been mostly resolved, so it becomes increasingly difficult to justify the price of a Kahr/Sig/Kimber when there are pistols that are just as good 99% of the time. Sure, the Sig 290 will probably go 10000 rounds without a problem, but if someone is never going to shoot more than one box of ammo through the gun (if that much) they will not need the Sig (or Kimber/Kahr/Wilson).

While I personally don't agree with it, most people who buy a gun for self defense will seldom shoot more than a few rounds through the gun, so something like a PF-9 makes perfect sense for them.
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. I've spent some time behind the PF9
A couple of buddies have them and they're a fine little pistol. I even like the trigger on them as crazy as that sounds...
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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #36
58. I bought one when they first came out, and really don't have anything against the pistol
even if mine only managed to get through a mag and a half before breaking (kel-tec fixed it relatively quickly). I think a lot of people who buy the PF-9 would be better served by the P11: it is only marginally wider, carries 5 more rounds, is more comfortable to shoot, handles a wider range of ammo and has a more reliable design. Unfortunately, the P11 is ugly and has a trigger that is worse that most staple guns, so new shooters looking for something in that price range tend to gravitate towards the PF-9 or LC9.
After going back and forth for a couple of months, I eventually sold the PF-9 and kept the P11. It would be nice if Kel-Tec were to update the P11 with the PF-9 trigger and more modern styling.
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #58
65. I've had a P11 for years
I don't use it as a daily carry but carry it when I need something extra concealable. It's a nice little pistol but I hate practicing with it because it's one of the early models with the 10lb hammer spring. I've never replaced it with the 8.5lb spring because I figure if I ever actually need it, I'm not really going to notice that long hard trigger pull.
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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #65
67. You probably won't notice the trigger weight in an emergency situation
Edited on Wed Jun-08-11 11:58 AM by chibajoe
but you definitely notice it when practicing. If you put in the lighter spring, you will likely practice more with the pistol, which should be more than enough justification to swap the spring out. For what it's worth, the lighter spring doesn't make that much of a difference; the trigger only goes from being horrible to being less horrible. The metal trigger shoe and little hogue grip helps a lot.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
28. Tiny guns....
How tiny they are....

yup

:D
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Even a tiny gun can be an effective deterrent. (n/t)
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. Makes little difference
even a small .22 long rifle round, placed in the proper location, will fell an elephant.
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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. I don't think it is possible to kill an elephant with a .22
no matter where you shoot it, but I get you sentiment. :thumbsup:
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Probably true, but I'm not going to try it.
When I was a kid, a friend of my parents said he killed a grizzly with a .22 once. According to his story, the guy was in the process of being mauled when he put the pistol barrel in the bears mouth and fired. I wasn't there, and I'm not going to do a "myth busters" reenactment to find out.
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Through the orbital socket and into the brain.....
an elephant's eye nor their brain isn't any tougher than a human's.

I wouldn't want to have to do it, and I'm nowhere near a good enough marksman to think I could hit such a shot...it's an almost impossible shot, but it could happen.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. It helps a lot
If the elephant thinks it could happen. (To flog the metaphor)
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. LOL
There is that too! :D
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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
61. It might not be any thougher, but it's a lot bigger
That .22 is going to have to do a lot of bouncing around to cause enough damage to actually kill the elephant... lest not before it stomps you into a little red wet spot. :yoiks:

Ok, fine, I'll concede that it is possible, but extremely improbable. :tinfoilhat:
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discntnt_irny_srcsm Donating Member (916 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #33
55. This just came to mind...
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. My LCP is almost the same size as my Atrix...
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. You are of the Goldilocks school of firearms criticism, I take it.
If it is small, it is bad.
If it is big, it is bad.
If it is inexpensive, it is bad.
If it costs thousands, it is bad.
If it is inaccurate, it is bad.
If it is accurate, it is bad.
If it's not powerful, it's bad.
If it's powerful, it's bad.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
46. Allow me to add the promise of a Boberg pistol
Edited on Mon Jun-06-11 07:53 PM by aikoaiko
The designer attempts to add a little length to the barrel of a compact 9mm by using bull-pup design ideas.



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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
60. I don't know if it is quite correct to call that design a bullpup
Edited on Tue Jun-07-11 12:35 PM by chibajoe
What Arne did was tried to adapt a feed and extraction mechanism similar to the one used on the Browning M2. The obvious benefit is that you can get an additional 1" or so of barrel length over a conventional pistol design for a given size. The down side is that relying on a bunch of springs and levers for feeding and positioning the bullets is going to be problematic. I know he has at least one working prototype, but the project doesn't seem to have progressed much in the last year or so. I really hope he does manage to get this design to market, though, because it is the most innovative thing to happen to handguns in at least 50 years.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. true, I was referencing that idea of stripping the round backward first. as a bullpup idea

but you're right, its been around longer than bullpups.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
47. Smith & Wesson's come out with the "Bodyguard" models
Edited on Mon Jun-06-11 09:32 PM by Euromutt
There's the Bodyguard 380 semi-auto and the Bodyguard 38 revolver. Both DAO, and fitted with integral laser sights; they're quite cunning designs, and the only thing I don't like about them at first glance is that they're not southpaw-friendly.

Smith & Wesson's a bit late to the party, which is not unusual for them, but they make up for it by giving their designs just that bit of extra added value.
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I just wish Colt would get into this lite-revolver market !
Anyone hear of any plans for them to do so??
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. I thought Colt was pretty much zeroing in on the military market NT
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
52. I can here the marketing department now - what will appeal to toters' baser instincts?

Get em turned on and they will buy several.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Umm-hmmm. Here's the ad that led to my choice of a S&W 3913 Lady Smith as a CCW...


Appealing to those "baser instincts" of wanting a weapon that is safe, reliable, and effective. Yup. :eyes:

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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #54
66. Very comfortable carry
single stack, narrow, accurate, a little longer for better sight picture and longer range. Along with my S&W snub revolver, my 3914 is a favorite carry.

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. I have small hands and find a firearm with a double stacked magazine ...
difficult to shoot accurately. I have to cant the firearm slightly to reach the trigger.

That's one reason I also carry a J-frame S&W revolver.

I also have no problem with accuracy when shooting one of my Colt 1911 .45 autos which have single stack magazines. Unfortunately the big Colt 45 autos are hard to conceal in the hot weather in Florida plus they are heavy and a pain to carry.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. 3913 or 14 are worth checking out.
Used they are $300 +/- and a great value.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-08-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. I'll have to check them out. Thanks. (n/t)
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ileus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. That's easy: Size, Weight, Caliber...now build what we need.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #52
57. Supply and demand, baby!
It's the only rule of economics that is based on empirical evidence.

In my case, my "baser instinct" is to ask "can the weapon be operated left-handed?" If not, no amount of marketing can make me buy it.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-06-11 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
53. Wow...Those are GIANT!!1!!!1


The NAA...now that is compact!!
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-07-11 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. My daughter sometimes carries one and calls it her ...
"Get away from me" gun.

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