Sheriff's deputy kills his ex-wife in Virginia parking lot

[MyrnaLoy]

"Three shooting incidents -- including one in which a county sheriff's deputy shot dead his ex-wife and another that left a state police trooper wounded -- broke out within less than an hour in western Virginia, police said." http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/05/30/virginia.shooting/

He was a legal gun owner before he became an illegal gun owner. People do snap and a handy weapon makes death easier. So many in this forum say people who carry a weapon legally, ie CWP holders, are the safest individuals. How can we ever measure that metric when the NRA and the GOP wants to keep CWP holders list secret? The numbers thrown around here are false, sure you can show us those Texas numbers all day but what about the states that don't grant access to the CWP lists?

You love that .1% number in Texas but deep down you know it's not true. In reality CWP holders shoot people at a higher rate than that. If you truly want to be the responsible gun owner then let reporters have access to the CWP database, we can then discuss HONEST numbers.

[Name removed]

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[bluerum]

4. Is it reasonable to expect a sheriffs deputy to have a concealed carry permit?

I would expect that a sheriffs deputy would have a concealed permit carry for off duty carry.

Anyone can snap. This guy did.

Dust off the "poor mental health in this country" line boys. You are going to need it.

[gejohnston]

7. Some jurisdictions require off duty carry

and the badge is the de facto CCW.

[Blown330]

8. No it isn't.

Just stated that in many states they are not required to have a CCW to carry concealed off duty. Helps if you actually research this stuff instead of posting blind.

[Euromutt]

17. Ever hear of the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) of 2004?

In broad terms, it allows not only currently serving law enforcement officers, but also separated or retired LEOs, to carry concealed anywhere in the United States, and overrides state and local laws concerning concealed carry.

[bluerum]

25. Got it.

Thanks for the advice, rookie.

[spin]

12. We once had a roomer who had quit his job as a local police officer ...

My daughter, the ex-cop and I went to a local fast food restaurant and he nervously asked if we were carrying. It seems he noticed someone who he had arrested and who harbored bad feelings toward him. He had never bothered to get a concealed carry permit.

When he had been a police officer he did carry concealed off duty and I believe he was required to do so.

[Kennah]

58. Some recommend that cops get a CCW for off duty

Even though you're a cop, if you're carrying under a CCW, in the eyes of the law you're held to a different standard.

When one is not in uniform and carrying a radio, you're on your own.

As such, it makes sense to carry under a CCW and just be a good witness.

[TheCowsCameHome]

13. Whoa! Another unrec.

This is big.

[gejohnston]

27. What do you expect?

Some wife beating cop drives up in his cop car, murders his wife with his cop issue gun, and it is supposed to have something to do with me and my target pistol. So yeah, it rates one. Why would you rec it?

[TheCowsCameHome]

28. I didn't rec it.

But it's funny how the unrec crowd gets so giddy about unreccing a post.

[Straw Man]

3. You're a CWP holder.

Please give us your full name and home address if you don't like "secret" CWP lists.

You love that .1% number in Texas but deep down you know it's not true. In reality CWP holders shoot people at a higher rate than that.

How do you know this? Please share your source with us.

[MyrnaLoy]

5. I am

and the Washington list is available

[Euromutt]

18. Really? Where and how?

As a CPL holder myself, I find that a matter of some concern.

[Euromutt]

38. Say, since this thread has been reanimated, how about an answer to that question?

Where and how is information on Washington state CPL holders available to the general public?

[Straw Man]

22. Washington list is only available to law enforcement.

See item (4).

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=42.56.240

None of the information on the application can be released. Maybe raw data can, but that's not the issue with "secret" lists, and it never was. Has anyone objected to raw data being released?

Nevertheless, if you believe all the information should be public, here's your chance.

[gravity556]

34. If the list is available to the public, why not post

your info?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x437113#437607

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. Your grasp of CCW law is similar to that of your grasp of the workings of the ATF.

If I may be permitted a slight threadjack: I note you seem to have abandoned your role as the ATF's biggest cheerleader on DU.

Care to explain why that is?

[Hoopla Phil]

36. Doesn't this person also claim to have a CHL?

[gravity556]

37. she does indeed purport to have a CCW

to "eliminate the waiting period when she buys a gun". Paraphrasing, but to that effect. That whole "some animals are more equal than others" thing.

[gejohnston]

6. I don't know about the GOP or the NRA

But I have noticed when the issue came up in Oregon, law enforcement agencies I found opposed giving the names out. The agency that compiles the metrics does not need a list of individuals. I am guessing that the statistics are put together by Dept of Public Safety, which should have the list anyway. All they need is a number of how many were CWP holders abused the right vs the number of CWPs as a whole.
The deputy's badge is his defacto CWP. That is a different demographic of CWP holders. Was he indeed a gun owner or did he use a department issue weapon (which would be property of the county.)?

[MyrnaLoy]

10. which brings us to the point of the post

How can reporters or people compiling records really know if those who commit crimes in Oregon know the REAL number of people who have misused their weapon? If reporters can't access the database then there is no real number.

[gejohnston]

11. they can ask for the number. Or are you saying that

they need the list of names to count for themselves? Not having one, I am guessing that each CWP has a number like a DL#. The could simply release the numbers.

[X_Digger]

33. Reporters aren't statisticians.

The DPS (or state equivalent) can and does have access to those records.

Just because YOU don't have access doesn't make them "secret".

[Kennah]

56. Once they get revoked or suspended, it gets reported in Florida

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Details aren't published, but I used to live in Florida and I was curious. When I called and talked with the folks at Division of Licensing in Tallahassee, they said it was public record and that one could come into the office and see info they had on record about revocations. Convicted of murder, rape, robbery, crossing an invisible line, etc. However, names and address of licensees, nope. You don't get that in Florida or Washington.

In the handful of states where it has been public record, some dickhead reporter will usually publish the names and that generally leads to that info being locked away from the general public.

[gejohnston]

9. post script

The article does not say if the cop was off duty or not. We are assuming facts not in evidence.

[udbcrzy2]

14. I wonder if the guy had any narcotic prescriptions too

That seems like a reason to not allow him to own a gun, but we don't know that yet.

Too bad they couldn't have given him an asshole test before allowing him to even own a gun.

[gejohnston]

19. Since the asshole was a cop

he may have not been a gun owner. That was most likely an issue weapon, property of the county. As for giving that asshole a test before giving him a badge and gun, I agree. He should not have either. His superiors and coworkers should have seen it coming.
As far as I am concerned, any rules that apply to CCW should also apply to off duty police.

[Euromutt]

15. What gives you the idea the deputy "snapped"?

I strongly suggest you read "The Myth of the 'Virgin Killer': Law-Abiding Persons Who Kill in a Fit of Rage" by Don Kates and Daniel Polsby (available in .pdf here: http://www.hoffmang.com/firearms/kates/Myth_of_the_Virgin_Killer-Kates-Polsby.pdf ), and if you feel like it, you might also read "The Right to Arms: The Criminology of Guns" (http://www.cardozolawreview.com/Joomla1.5/content/denovo/KATES_2010_86.pdf ). Note the latter piece is also by Don Kates, so it rehashes much of the earlier article.

I also urge you even more strongly to purchase or borrow a copy of The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. I will quote a passage from the chapter on domestic violence:

Though leaving is the best response to violence, it is in trying to leave that most women get killed. This dispels a dangerous myth about spousal killings: that they happen in the heat of an argument. In fact, the majority of husbands who kill their wives stalk them first, and far from the "crime of passion" that it's so often called, killing a wife is usually a decision, not a loss of control. Those men who are the most violent are not at all carried away by fury. In fact, their heart rates actually drop and they become physiologically calmer as they become more violent.

Even the phrase "crime of passion" has contributed to our widespread misunderstanding of this violence. That phrase is not the description of a crime -- it is the description of an excuse, a defense. Since 75 per cent of spousal murders happen after the woman leaves, it is estrangement, not argument, that begets the worst violence.

Emphases in bold mine.

The point I'm driving at is that people very, very rarely kill each other in a sudden fit of rage. Even in cases where the perpetrator had no prior criminal history (as in spousal killings), it almost invariably emerges upon closer examination that the killing was premeditated and planned. I will state more strongly what de Becker, throughout the chapter, hints at, namely that the term "crime of passion" is a fiction, concocted by murderers and their defense counsels in a transparent attempt to downplay the severity of their actions.

And it's a very safe bet that this Franklin Co. deputy didn't just shoot his ex on a momentary whim either; if anyone bothers to scratch the surface, it will almost certainly turn out this murder was some time in coming.

You love that .1% number in Texas but deep down you know it's not true. In reality CWP holders shoot people at a higher rate than that.

You can speculate that the Texas and Florida statistics aren't representative of "shall issue" states in general, but you're going to have to provide some actual evidence if you want anyone to accept that the stats are false. Because I know no such thing, no matter how much you may like to falsely claim that--and others--do.

If you truly want to be the responsible gun owner then let reporters have access to the CWP database, we can then discuss HONEST numbers.

I can agree with your goal, but not with your means. What's wrong with simply having the reporting law enforcement agencies, in their submissions to the National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS) and Summary Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR), list in instances of serious violent crime (homicide, rape, robbery and aggravated assault) whether the perpetrator was found to possess a CCW permit; was found not to; or the perpetrator's possession of a CCW permit or lack thereof could not be established?

[DWC]

16. Living proof

That Ron White is right.

Semper Fi,

[virginia mountainman]

20. So a Deputy goes on a rampage... Their tight lipped, but I bet the shootings are related..

And your reaction is to debate CCW???

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! Talk about a bait and switch!

Not to mention, A Deputy, is a "only one" in this eyes of most that are to HAVE the weapons in the first place..

[spin]

21. Florida is another state that publishes data on those who have concealed weapons permits ...

and can be viewed on a state web page at http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

Unfortunately Florida does provide a breakdown of the reasons that concealed weapons permits have been revoked but they do say that our of the 1,976,774 licenses that they have issued since October 1, 1987, a total of 5,491 have been revoked because of a crime committed after the license was issued and only 168 of those crimes involved a firearm. That doesn't mean that 168 people were shot by a person with a permit.

I know that people who dislike firearms or the fact that most states now have "shall issue" concealed carry find such statistics hard to believe. I personally have to admit that I would have never expected the program to be so successful when it first started. It almost defies logic and commonsense.

I've talked to a number of people who have concealed weapons permits and my own experience with carrying backs up what they say. Once you get a concealed carry permit, you become far more polite and you avoid confrontation. I had always tried to be a good law abiding person before I got my first license but I value my permit and try even harder today to not let my testosterone control my actions. I WILL walk away from a fight, even if it makes me look like a coward. I no longer give another driver the finger when he cuts me off in traffic. My object is to make absolutely sure that the firearm I carry never leaves its holster unless absolutely necessary to protect my health or life and the health and life of those I love.

My daughter attracted the unwanted attention of a stalker a couple of years ago. She filed a restraining order, but the stalker insisted on violating it with impunity. My son in law has a concealed carry permit and often felt the urge to confront the stalker and simply beat the shit out of him. In fact, at a court hearing the judge warned the stalker that it was not wise to bother my daughter as her husband might handle the problem. The judge almost seemed to be expressing the view that this might be a favorable solution to the problem. In the rural area of Florida where we live, it probably is.

My son in law decided to let the situation run its course and while he did talk to the stalker he didn't take any physical action or threaten him. He was concerned that he might lose his carry permit.

My daughter had a carry permit but since the stalker never attempted to physically attack her, she merely reported every violation to the police. Had he attacked her, she would have shot him without hesitation as he was much larger and had a criminal record of violence and alcohol abuse, I doubt that the stalker even knew my daughter was carrying as she preferred to keep that information secret. She saw no reason to threaten the man and also didn't want to lose the advantage of surprise if he was planning to physically assault her.

Eventually, the stalker violated the restraining order in front of a number of witnesses (including myself)and the police arrested him. He spent several weekends in jail and this convinced him that it was wise to leave my daughter alone. The judge told him that he might be looking at a much longer jail sentence if he continued.

[ileus]

23. wow...if we can't trust public servents it's time to ban guns.

[WatsonT]

24. "You love that .1% number in Texas but deep down you know it's not true. "

So you're going by feelings rather than facts?

Not a strong argument there.

Some people "know deep down" that homeopathy works. Or astrology, or alchemy, or voodoo, or whatever.

[PavePusher]

26. Unrecced.

Your referenced incident has nothing to do with Citizen concealed or open carry. It may have something to do with abuse of LEO priviliges. He even used an official vehicle for his act. I'd say this counts more towards banning police cars than any legitimate slap at the Right of Citizens to be armed.

Bait and switch at best, outright lie otherwise.

[virginia mountainman]

29. Now we know..

It was a rouge deputy, in his marked police car, DOING ALL THE SHOOTING...

He was NOT a civilian...He was most likely was ISSUED the weapons he used....

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/wdbj7-shooting-at-sheetz-on-williamson-rd-in-roanoke-20110530,0,5471601.story

I wonder, just HOW the OP can make the leap about "legal gun owners" because even the most ardent anti-gun supporters, demand that the police be allowed to keep their weapons..

BY THE WAY the Ironto exit, where this played out is about half an hour from my house.

I wonder how the OP can explain away that "leap"??

[MicaelS]

30. There is absolutely no reason for ANYONE outside

Law enforcement, or other legitimate state authorities to have access to who has a CCW permit. The public certainly doesn't need to know who has one because all that would do is violate people's privacy, and point out exactly who has a gun and who doesn't. Such disclosure would make CCW holders targets for crime. Disclosure would locate and identify people who are trying to hide from violent ex-spouses, or criminals who the CCW might have filed a report against. Disclosure would permit employers to fire employees who have a CCW permit because the employer doesn't like guns. Disclosure would allow people who are anti-gun to "out" their neighbors.

And the media doesn't need to know, since they so often engage in sensationalism for the sake of sensationalism in order to sell more papers or gain more viewers. The media would violate people's privacy and hide behind the excuse of "open records".

[TPaine7]

31. The OP complains about an alleged lack of data availability in some states...

then goes on to demonstrate the uselessness of data in convincing someone devoted to the Gun Control Reality Distortion Field:

You love that .1% number in Texas but deep down you know it's not true. In reality CWP holders shoot people at a higher rate than that. If you truly want to be the responsible gun owner then let reporters have access to the CWP database, we can then discuss HONEST numbers.

Why do you want data from other states? If the data doesn't meet with your pre-conceived bias, you dismiss it out of hand and supply your own data about what goes on in the minds of other people.

I have no problem with reporters having access to the names of everyone who has had their CCW permit revoked because they were CONVICTED of shooting someone. I'm not opposed to having the truth come out. I do oppose fanatics determined to lash out at concealed carry permittees publishing the names and addresses of innocent people, some of whom are laying low to aviod very real threats against them and their families.

I can handle the truth. I won't make up delusional fantasies, say that the official data is wrong, that others here "know it" "deep down" and that I alone, through intuition can divine "THE TRUTH."

The gun control reailtiy distortion field hasn't wrapped me around its little finger.

[X_Digger]

32. "How can we ever measure that metric"

By the various crime figures states provide..

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

[krispos42]

39. And people do get ambushed, and a handy weapon makes death easier.

And how do we measure the metric? Simple. The homicide rate continues to decline year after year despite your fears of more people having firearms on them when they "snap".

If every year the number of concealed-carry permits goes up, and if every year the rate of concealed-carry permits goes up, and the homicide rate doesn't go up... then your premise is not holding up too well.

:shrug:


If you really wanted to reduce gun violence, you'd be pushing hard for legalizing drugs. Not only would it be easier, both in terms of legislation and in terms of enforcement, it would also work much faster and better than nationwide bans on concealed carry or any of the other schemes bandied about.

[Hoyt]

40. Unless, of course, the rate would be even less without all the friggin guns in circulation.

[gejohnston]

41. the historical record says no such luck in any other country. nt

[Hoyt]

43. Is that right? When was the last time there were no guns in America or restrictions on toting.

[X_Digger]

48. RIF -- reading is fundamental..

the historical record says no such luck in any other country. nt

Did you miss the bolded part?

[Hoyt]

54. XD, I suggest you go back and read the three or four related posts. Then, put them together.

I know it's tough, but try it . . . . . .then try walking down the street without a gun or two strapped to your body.

[X_Digger]

60. Oh I have.. but you still seem to have missed the point..

There isn't a country where restrictions on gun ownership led to a decrease in homicide rates. UK? Were low before gun control, and depending on the particular measure, homicide rates stayed the same or increased. AU? Same. Many EU countries? Same.

[gejohnston]

51. restrictions on "toting"?

The only place in the US that has no restrictions at all is Vermont. Most of the 20 century in all but the South. The 19th and 20th centuries in the South.

[ileus]

42. It would also be less without criminals in circulation...

[Hoyt]

44. No shiite. But you ain't the judge, jury, Jesus and executioner.

[Hoopla Phil]

45. Again I must ask how you would address the situation. Would you meekly

roll over and acquiesce to what ever hardship the criminal would exact upon you? Would submit to rape, beating, death of yourself or loved ones?

[Hoyt]

46. I can assure you it would not be a "meek" response. But, I don't go out everyday prepared for that

situation that will likely never arise. If it does, there are other ways to handle it that don't require carrying a gun or two around and all the BS and damage to society that goes with it.

[Hoopla Phil]

49. And another dodge. Please answer the question. You've been asked many times

yet refuse to answer. I wonder why that is.

[Hoyt]

52. I've told you. You can't accept it because all you know is "the point of a gun . . . . .".

I know why that is.

[Hoopla Phil]

61. And another dodge. Try to answer the question.

The only thing you've said is that you wouldn't be meek. Ok, would you get on your knees and beg? Would you try to dialog? Regal us with your sage advice on how to deal with a murderer or rapist. Here is your chance to set us all on the correct path as you see it.

[gravity556]

47. True.

However, in this instance, it appears that Deputy Friendly decided that he was the judge, jury, deity of preference and executioner.

Still, I have to wonder what the OP's (and your) thought process was that linked a law enforcement officer going apeshit and killing his ex-wife in front of her kid and then opening up on other cops, and CCW holders. Seriously, what kind of mental gymnastics got you from reading a story about a cop killing his wife and seriously injuring another cop to "Concealed carry permitees are all just waiting to murder anyone who looks at them wrong!!!111one!11eleven!"?

[Hoyt]

53. Actually it was reading a downstream post about more guns led to less gun related homicides.

More BS from folks who can't walk out of their house without a gun or two strapped to their bodies.

[friendly_iconoclast]

62. Actually, they said "more guns" *coincided* with a lower homicide rate.

Which is quite true, BTW, no matter how loudly and often you may deny it.


Doublethink might get easier with practice...but it's still doublethink.

[krispos42]

55. Unless, of course, the rate would be even higher without all the friggin guns in circulation

Flip a coin, place your bets.

[gravity556]

50. Here are a couple of additional links on the story

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392658/Sheriff-s-deputy-goes-bloody-Memorial-Day-rampage-killing-ex-wife-shooting-state-trooper.html

(wow,looks like the whole SO is a goatfuck)
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/236505

http://www.roanoke.com/columnists/casey/wb/235104 (more goatfuckery)

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/289604 (timeline)

http://www.roanoke.com/news/breaking/wb/289482 (call transcript)

http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/289618 (more background on the shooter)

[Kennah]

57. What you're really saying is disarm the cops

[Remmah2]

59. Is this why police chiefs everywhere feel civilians should not own firearms?

yup

cop vs civilian ex-wife.

[SteveM]

63. Ah, there's Myrna again, discussing "love."

Do you really think that when a "gun crime" is committed that LEO does not investigate a perpetrator's bg to determine if he can legally own a gun or not? Holy Extra Criminal Charges! They've been doing it for generations, long before wide-spread CCW legislation. But, being such an "honest" person, you knew that, ay?

And you know that the ONLY reason to "...let reporters have access to the CWP database" is to "out" gun-owners, to hold them to moral ridicule, to turn neighbor against neighbor, to subject them to increased break & entering crimes. Let your "honesty" rule, now. Or at least your "love."

[Tejas]

64. So, disarm all law-abiding Deputies?

I mean, since your legal-before-illegal meme is bulletproof. :sarcasm: