East L.A. man kills girlfriend and their children, then himself

[MyrnaLoy]

"the couple got in an argument and he began shooting." http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-murder-suicide-20110509,0,4455324.story


Many members ask for what posts like this has to do with policy. Most intelligent people could see policy questions just by the quote I decided to use. For those of lesser intelligence here is the policy question. Would this family be alive if a gun had not been in the car? So far he seems to be a lawful gun owner in good standing in the community. Not the gang banger criminal you guys hope he might be. Normal guy, normal gun, normal dead family, gun owner snaps. A family is dead.

[AtheistCrusader]

1. And an incredibly unusual scenario.

About as 'common' as said driver scumbag driving into oncoming traffic at a high rate of speed to achieve the same effect.

[JDPriestly]

2. Sorry, but this scenario is much too common.

What a sad thing.

[AtheistCrusader]

4. Too common by what metric?

Suicide is pretty bad. It accounts for nearly half of the firearm deaths in this country. Murder-suicide is a small percentage of that number.

[JDPriestly]

38. In my experience, I would say that terror in the home

due to one member of a household wielding a weapon in a moment of anger is far greater. Domestic violence is quite common. It is bad enough when no weapons are involved, but a national plague in households in which weapons are handily available.

European countries, for example, have far less of a problem with this. Oddly enough, in some of the areas of some of the countries I have lived in, there is a widespread hunting culture.

But we have a disproportionate amount of violence in general and gun violence in particular in our homes. That is what I hear about in LA over the years at any rate.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. Domestic violence is an enormous issue in the United States.

Hell, our murder rate, completely ignoring those murders committed with firearms, is inordinately high.

No argument from me on that score.

[MyrnaLoy]

3. so you are

saying that it is "incredibly unusual" for a parent or other family member to kill their family and then themselves with a firearm? Do they have news where you live?

I put your words in quotes just in case you forgot saying them.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Yes, I have news where I live.

And yes, it is incredibly unusual. Prominence in the news headlines does not a common issue make.

'summer of the shark' much?

[MyrnaLoy]

18. so then in your part of the

world where you live parents drive into traffic at full speed to kill their families much more often than parents killing their families with firearms? This was your example after all. What was it you said, "About as 'common' as said driver scumbag driving into oncoming traffic at a high rate of speed.." Wanna compare the number of families shot and killed by familial gunfire as opposed to families who kill their families by "driving into oncoming traffic"? Come on. lets play!


I think your D.O.P.E. (Defense Of Pistol Everytime)strategy really is a giant fail this time.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Looks like we both failed.

Where you implied I said "much more often". 'about as common' is not 'much more often'.

However, I made an error in the initial comparison.

1. No concern group compiles this data for vehicular suicide/homicide.
2. Intent cannot always be determined in the vehicle category.
3. Victim status cannot always be determined in the vehicle category.

A comparison between vehicular suicide might be apt against the rare case of suicide that is often pegged as an 'accident'. Scenario: old man walks into a gun range, fires a few rounds, goes to a bench, lays out a rag and a can of break-free and shoots himself in the face (and similar implausible 'accidents'). This is generally ruled an accident, even though it is quite clear to firearms users that this was a suicide. (Generally insurance fraud, by the way)

Similar problem with vehicles. Did that car swerve into oncoming traffic or even other unfavorable terrain like a bridge abutment or a lake for the purpose of suicide, or was it an accident? Further still, are victims in the driver's car, or in the other vehicle incidental, or purposely injured/killed? Meaning, are they murders or manslaughter?

It's much easier to determine intent when someone shoots one or more people in the room, and then themself, than it is to determine if the person in the back seat or an oncoming car was intended to be killed, or simply incidental to the event.

So, my apologies for the bad analogy.

Now, are you going to address the numbers I provided that establish how rare this sort of incident occurs, or is the vehicular suicide mistake going to get in the way still?

[Euromutt]

47. "Intent cannot always be determined in the vehicle category," e.g. if all the occupants are dead

In this case, the three witnesses to the incident are all minors (the article says "adolescent") so the press may not get to badger them about the details of the "argument." But as I just remarked further down, I wouldn't be surprised if it emerged that the late Ms Oseguera had just told Mr Deleon that he wasn't the father of the 5 year-old twins.

[AtheistCrusader]

9. United States Population 312 million.

Total number of murder-suicide events in the first half of calendary year 2005: 264
Some unspecified number of those are the person who committed the act. Additionally, unreported by VPC, are incidents where someone ATTEMPTED to kill another person, or attempted to kill two, but only killed one (etc) and themselves.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/amroul2006.pdf

But, lets assume that number is ENTIRELY victims. 591 people.

That's a victimization rate of 0.1894 per 100,000 citizens. And I'm being intentionally generous as all hell there.
Versus the overall murder victimization rate of 5.6 per 100,000 citizens for the same time period of 2005.

See how one is a whole number, and the other isn't?


I'm standing by 'incredibly unusual'. Not sure why you needed to quote it in a strange way, unless you were hoping I would edit it for some sort of 'gotcha' point.

[MyrnaLoy]

21. Wanna find

some data that's not almost 7 years old

[pipoman]

22. Not exactly the way it works

if you dispute the poster's numbers, it is incumbent upon you to cite something which disputes it..At least this poster showed some actual numbers, not just assumption and conjecture based on the perceived prevalence of news stories.

[MyrnaLoy]

24. So

Do you want to show the number of familial gun murder/suicide vs familial murder/suicide by driving into oncoming traffic at a higher rate of speed? That was his comparison not mine, you wanna play too?

[pipoman]

27. Wow..in triplicate?

he posted numbers, you disputed the numbers, you seem to be basing your opinion strictly on teevee and newspaper reports...seems to me it is your turn to provide some actual statistics or numbers.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. You ignored the established rarity of the murder-suicide by numbers issue.

I withdrew the comparison because it is invalid on a number of variables, however, since you sarcastically press the point:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2248/is_n118_v30/ai_17150135/


Schmidt, Perlin, Towns, Fisher, & Shaffer 1972). But such characteristics should not be used to mask the fact that death by automobile offers a unique opportunity for concealment of suicide intent (MacDonald 1965). For example, the results of a study of fatally injured (N = 182) and nonfatally injured (N = 96) drivers involved in vehicular crashes conducted in Baltimore (Schmidt, Shaffer, Zlotowitz, & Fisher 1977) led the investigators to conclude that 1.7% (n = 3) of all fatal crashes were suicides, 2.7% of fatal single-car crashes were so identified, and 1% of the nonfatal crashes were thought to be suicide attempts. Vehicular fatalities that are suicides vary from 1.6% to 5% (Schmidt et al., 1977). These figures lead to considerable speculation that a significant albeit unknown proportion of vehicular deaths classified as accidents are in fact suicides. As Schmidt et al. (1977, p. 175) argue, the single-car, single-occupant fatal crash is especially suspect.

So, that's a strong contention that 1188 fatal crashes for the year in question were actually suicides. THAT is right in line with the murder-suicide number from VPC, however, it does not delve into the murder-component, only suicide. And unfortunately, the VPC numbers do not differentiate the suicides from the murders. They lump them into a total, which, interestingly is right in line with at least single-occupant single-vehicle crashs.

Here's where the data gets problematic quick:

In the first example of an "accident" that may have been intentional, a 38-year-old, married male died of multiple blunt trauma injuries incurred as a result of a two-vehicle crash. The decedent was the only occupant of a vehicle observed to be speeding along a major city thoroughfare when his automobile struck the rear end of a truck. No skid marks were found, indicating that the decedent drove into the truck without any attempt to brake the vehicle.

Should we rule that an attempted murder-suicide? The person who committed the act would be ruled one of the people under the murder-suicide total for VPC, in this scenario: shot someone, shot self, self died, other victim survived the injuries. Here we have an individual who intentionally rammed an occupied vehicle. Same effect yes?


The study I cited does not delve into the murder component of suicide. I think someone ought to undertake such a study. The results might surprise everyone.

[MyrnaLoy]

25. So

Do you want to show the number of familial gun murder/suicide vs familial murder/suicide by driving into oncoming traffic at a higher rate of speed? That was his comparison not mine, you wanna play too?

[MyrnaLoy]

26. So

Do you want to show the number of familial gun murder/suicide vs familial murder/suicide by driving into oncoming traffic at a higher rate of speed? That was his comparison not mine, you wanna play too?

[AtheistCrusader]

31. VPC is the only group I am aware of that compiles this sort of data.

If the frequency of their updates bothers you, perhaps you could ask them for a refresh, or perhaps donate them some money to fund their studies.

[Euromutt]

50. It is incredibly unusual for it to happen without warning

Allow me to quote Gavin de Becker, from his invaluable book The Gift of Fear:

Though leaving is the best response to violence, it is in trying to leave that most women get killed. This dispels a dangerous myth about spousal killings: that they happen in the heat of an argument. In fact, the majority of husbands who kill their wives stalk them first, and far from the "crime of passion" that it's so often called, killing a wife is usually a decision, not a loss of control. Those men who are the most violent are not at all carried away by fury. In fact, their heart rates actually drop and they become physiologically calmer as they become more violent.

Even the phrase "crime of passion" has contributed to our widespread misunderstanding of this violence. That phrase is not the description of a crime -- it is the description of an excuse, a defense. Since 75 per cent of spousal murders happen after the woman leaves, it is estrangement, not argument, that begets the worst violence.

And while this incident was reportedly triggered (pardon the pun) by an argument, my guess is that it was a long time coming: at least six years, after Ms Oseguera got pregnant by another man but led Mr. Deleon to believe the twins were his. That's surmise on my part, but it would explain it, wouldn't it? I also suspect this matter had been coming to a head for a while, because I doubt very, very strongly that Mr. Deleon had a CCW permit, so he didn't "just happen" to be illegally carrying a loaded handgun in his car.

[DrDan]

17. but he didn't - had a gun handy, so . . . .

[AtheistCrusader]

34. See post 32.

Incredibly unusual. Less than half of a person per 100,000 people in the US, per year.

That's rare.

[Tripod]

6. What the hell.

I bet that he has had issues before. criminal issues. Long time shit. He bought his gun on the Black Market.

[rl6214]

11. Tripod, your kitten/cat on your post looks exactly like one

I rescued a couple of weeks ago from a neighbors yard.

[Tripod]

13. Nice rescue, We rescued Jet at Thanksgiving. 2010

That is a great picture of your rescue, Rl6214 :bounce:

[rl6214]

14. Not to get off topic but

House behind ours had 13 cats and 17 kittens in the backyard. We were able to rescue 3 kittens, most of them had illnesses and infections. Animal control captured the rest. One we rescued was too far gone and didn't make it. We kept the one and gave the other to a friend of my son.

[Tripod]

16. great job, under the circumstances

[Hoyt]

40. Gotta admit, that is one cool looking cat. Good rescue. Let's turn this into a cat forum.

[petronius]

43. *All* of DU is a cat forum...

:rofl:

[petronius]

42. Gorgeous kitty! That's a great shot - is it really that light-colored, or is

it a result of the flash?

I've got a bunch of shots of one of our kitties leaping at the camera, but she always manages to outrun the focus...

[rl6214]

44. It's the flash that made it look lighter

She really is charcoal grey. She was in my lap playing with the cord on the camera when I took that shot.

Sorry to get off topic.

[rl6214]

7. Yeah, he couldn't have done anything like this mother did

it has to be the gun.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-mother-drowns-kids-20110414,0,221941.story

Mother drowns herself and 3 of her children
Residents of Newburgh, N.Y., say LaShanda Armstrong, a single mother of four, felt alone and overwhelmed before she drove her minivan into the Hudson River, killing herself and three of her children. Only her 10-year-old boy escaped.


Edit to add:

It is an awefull thing the guy did. If all were just in the world he would have just offed himself and the mother and kids would still be alive. It happens all too often that the nutjob kills himself or herself after committing the murders. I don't blame the gun, I blame the nutjob and think he would have found a way.

[AtheistCrusader]

10. I would rather the mentally disturbed obtain proper medical treatment

before they become a danger to themselves or others, but that of course, is a topic for a different forum.

[Tripod]

15. In this case, there wasn't a gun, Just a car, and children.

[MyrnaLoy]

19. We can

compare the numbers over a two year period and see what is used most in familial murder, cars or guns. I don't know the answer but we should see which device is used more often.

[lawodevolution]

8. California has an 85 Brady score, certainly this can't happen there

[Lursa CB]

12. Does sound familiar

Sounds just like the moron who killed his entire family in S. WA st by setting the house on fire. That's happened a couple of times recently, same as one where he killed the family with carbon monoxide. And then there's the ones that drowned their kids.

Yeah...all had arguments with their wives/exs, or were out of work and despondent.

Has nothing to do with guns and everything to do with losers who take their problems out on others.

Millions of Americans have guns for a variety of reasons, and protected by the Constitution, Yes, some do abuse that right and innocents die. That's very sad. Please see my signature. We dont give up our rights because of a few idiots. Lots of people have been killed by freedom of speech too....are you suggesting we curtail that as well?

[MyrnaLoy]

20. Whoaaa

did you mean to post in freedom of speech forum? We're talking guns here.

[cleanhippie]

48. So you have your entire premise destroyed in a single post, and all you can manage to reply with

is THAT nonsense?


Epic Fail.

[Katya Mullethov]

23. yes

[GreenStormCloud]

28. Nope. Not normal.

So-called snapping doesn't happen in reality. There are always signs that people miss. Read The Gift of Fear. The book is neither pro nor anti gun but is about picking up clues on violent people and how to tell when you are in danger.

[beevul]

29. Anybody that doesn't see the same policy question you do is of "lesser intelligence"?

Mmmkay.

[Logical]

30. So your solution is what? Ban all guns? Please let me know so we can discuss logically. n-t

[rl6214]

45. You won't get that.

[slackmaster]

35. The rights of the people should not be curtailed because of bad behavior by one person

Would this family be alive if a gun had not been in the car? So far he seems to be a lawful gun owner in good standing in the community.

It's illegal to carry a loaded gun in your car in California unless you have a concealed weapons permit.

[rrneck]

36. Yep, that's a tragedy

What's your solution?

[Atypical Liberal]

37. This is an unusual event.

Assuming this guy actually was a "lawful gun owner in good standing in the community", and did not have an extensive prior criminal record, as most firearm murders do, then this is an unusual event.

The idea that any firearm owner is a potential murderer just waiting to "snap" is a myth. Most people who commit homicide with firearms have extensive prior criminal histories, including, on average, 4 felonies.

http://www.cardozolawreview.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=138:kates201086&catid=20:firearmsinc&Itemid=20

For those of lesser intelligence here is the policy question. Would this family be alive if a gun had not been in the car?

Assuming the murderer did not decide on some other way of killing everyone in the car, like, say, driving head-on into oncoming traffic, or wait until he got home to bludgeon them to death with a baseball bat, the family would probably still be alive if a gun had not been in the car.

But in terms of policy, since these kinds of "just snapped" killings infrequent, why would we make policies that affect people unlikely to engage in this kind of behavior?

[petronius]

41. This is just my personal approach, so adopt it or not as you see fit, but when I write a

paragraph intended to insult the intelligence of other posters, I generally proofread to ensure that it makes sense. I make a particular effort to avoid Palin-esque sentences like "Many members ask for what posts like this has to do with policy." Also, that question you identified as a "policy question" actually isn't.

You really are a disaster at this, aren't you? Perhaps instead of trying to be a flame-warrior, you should just try and converse like a typically-mannered adult...

[Euromutt]

46. Why don't we review the law?

The California Penal Code, sections 12025-12026, prohibit the transportation of a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle without a CCW permit. Given that the late Mr. Deleon a) lived in Los Angeles, and b) was Hispanic, the likelihood that he possessed a CCW permit is negligible. It is legal, in principle, to openly transport an unloaded handgun in a motor vehicle, but it's a bit hard to see how Mr. Deleon would have loaded the weapon while driving.

I don't believe for one second that this guy "just happened" to have a loaded handgun in the car (illegally), and I don't believe for one second that the guy "just snapped." Despite the ubiquity of such terminology in media reports and public perception, closer inspection almost always reveals that there was a backstory of escalating friction leading up to the incident.

You know what I think? I think the couple had already been having issues--note that the girlfriend was 12 years younger than the guy--and she'd just told him that he wasn't the father of the twins. Mull on that for a bit.

[WatsonT]

49. Well I'm convinced. Murder should be outlawed immediately!