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Dad who split up fight MacDonald's shot dead - in UK

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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 12:12 AM
Original message
Dad who split up fight MacDonald's shot dead - in UK
A DAD-of-four who split up a fight in a McDonalds was shot dead moments after being told he wouldnt see the morning.

Raymond Mitchell, 34, had only popped into the restaurant to buy a hot chocolate.

But he apparently caused offence after splitting up two men fighting in the queue.

One of them, who had several gold teeth, shouted at Raymond: You are gonna die tonight, you are not gonna see the morning.

The thug is then said to have phoned an accomplice to fetch a gun, yelling into his mobile: Bring me that thing.



Read more: http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2011/04/21/dad...

And in the UK he had no damn chance to defend himself.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. McDonald's seems to be a very scary place. nt
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GKirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
21. I'm guessing you're joking
seeing how there are over 31,000 McDonalds restaurants in the world.
One could expect trouble at one occaisionally.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Yes, I made a joke because there were two threads yesterday, including this one, where something
scary happened at a McDonalds. But I recognize the calorie content of the food is usually the scariest thing in those restaurants.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
2. But, but, but.... Law-abiding Citizens.....
are SAFER when they're disarmed. That's what we keep getting told here, right...?
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madinmaryland Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. Why does this show up on DU??
Un-recced.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Did you make the same comments in the other threads about Individuals shot
Or are you a hypocrite
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Huh? Seriously... What do you mean?
Are you saying that the UK's restrictive gun laws prevented this murder?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 12:58 AM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is very disturbing.
I had been looking at the high number of YT videos of violent incidents at McD's. There's an obvious need for security guards, especially as the economy gets worse & tempers get shorter. If there had been a security guard on duty, that poor man would not have felt the need to stop the violence. Or, perhaps the fight wouldn't have been allowed to happen.

I'm not against people owning guns, but carrying guns isn't the answer. Let the security guards & the police handle thugs like these.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The man was chased into an alley.
Security Guards will not persue off-property, unless duly authorized-not gonna happen for private property and buisnesses. And where exactly were the police who are supposed to "handle thugs like these"? That doesn't seem to have worked very well, does it?
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. A security guard could have prevented a fight or stopped it quickly.
Then there would be no need for a customer to do what McD's should have felt the responsibility to handle on its own property.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. And that would have stopped the subsequent pursuit?
You don't seem to be thinking this through...
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #12
25. If there had been a security guard, there would have been no fight.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Facts not in evidence.
Security guards seldom prevent fights. They can usually stop them after they start, but not always.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Then they should hire an off-duty policeman.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You've got all kinds of answers
that involve somebody else paying for your security. Nice corporate risk dispersion there.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. How many of them are available? And for what hours?
They have to sleep sometime, you know.

At what point do you take responsibility for your own security, and refuse to let the government restrict your options without remediation?
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #32
40. can they do that in the UK?
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #32
45. I'm in favor of that.
I get $25 an hour for a gig like that. If every fast food place in the country had to hire a security detail it would be fantastic. Sign me up for three nights a week.

You do know we have lots more fast food places than there are cops to protect them 24/7, don't you?
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #27
57. For the most part
The job of security is to be a good witness and contact the police. They arent getting paid to get beat on, and having security wade into a fight makes the employer responsible for any injuries and leaves them open to being sued.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
39. No one should be forced to depend on security guards for protection in a restaurant.
Here's a thread on security guard protection:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

And police have no legal obligation to protect you.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
47. No, not "would have been", but "MAY have been".
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. I don't understand this logic.
I'm not against people owning guns, but carrying guns isn't the answer. Let the security guards & the police handle thugs like these.

If firearms are useful at preventing violent crime in the hands of security guards and police, then why aren't they useful at preventing violent crime when in the hands of actual victims? Why should people have to hope that someone is nearby to rescue them and wait for rescue?

Especially when the data shows that people with CCW permits are many, many times less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than average citizens without a permit?

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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. To prevent innocent bystanders from getting caught in the middle of gunfire.
Edited on Sun Apr-24-11 02:30 PM by pacalo
If a security guard had been there, there would have been no fight. The customer would have gone about his business in a safe environment.

It makes me feel safer to have trained law enforcement handle the guns over a society of free-carrying who-knows-whats itching for a reason to use their weapons.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. two problems with your logic
you are assuming that everyone is itching for a fight. An assumption with no empirical evidence is a value judgement.
and assuming that citizens are not as well trained as police. Not always. Most civilians go to the range more often because they want to, kind of like golf. Many of us have been target shooting or hunting since childhood. Cops not so much. In New Zealand, a handgun owner must go to the gun club and shoot twice as much as the police. Why? No clue, since there is no CCW or anything like that.
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Atypical Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #30
46. But this never happens.
To prevent innocent bystanders from getting caught in the middle of gunfire.

We know that CCW permit holders are less likely to cause collateral damage than the police do during a shooting.

If a security guard had been there, there would have been no fight. The customer would have gone about his business in a safe environment.

Um, I don't think you read the article. A security guard was there, and he used his gun to shoot and kill one of the two armed robbers. A security guard is just a civilian being paid to do guard duty.

It makes me feel safer to have trained law enforcement handle the guns over a society of free-carrying who-knows-whats itching for a reason to use their weapons.

But why do you feel that way? Did you know that CCW permit holders are less likely to be involved in any kind of crime, let alone firearm-related crime, than non-CCW permit holders? The rate of conviction of CCW permit holders in Texas is about .026%. This is for everything from Public Lewdness to Homicide. CCW permit holders are hyper-law-abiding citizens.

Your impression of CCW permit holders as being "free-carrying who-knows-whats itching for a reason to use their weapons" is an incorrect prejudice.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #30
50. Law enforcement makes up what, 0.0052% of the population?
We're going to need a bigger boat....load full of police officers.
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #30
58. 17 year veteran officer near me
Pulls out his gun on duty, showing it off to a friend in a grocery store. Pulls the trigger for some reason and shoots himself in the hand.

The level of training you are recieved isnt on par with your assumptions I think.
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:44 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. So if the police is not there in time, what is your solution? n-t
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Again, if there had been a security guard, there would have been no fight.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. If you had ever worked security
you would know that they are there to watch and call the cops- not intervene.

Security guards are just private citizens getting paid not much more than minimum wage. Don't bet your life on them.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Then a policeman should be used instead.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. Police officers in the employ
of corporations for security. What could go wrong? It's not like cops have never cracked any skulls in the service of corporate security before.
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. We cant stop it if we arent there nt
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reggie the dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
11. most cops in the uk dont even have guns
and so calling the cops wouldnt have helped, it would have taken a while for the special cops with guns to arrive. i wish the law permitted me to have a gun on the street here in france but i can only have and use a gun to defend myself in my home. the crossbow is the same, fine at home, not so legal in the street.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
13. Ah, I see. Restrictive gun laws make gun crime more frequent.
That's why the UK has much more gun crime than the US.

Oh, wait...
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intaglio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. My, My, My anyone would think you had an agenda
So, think a fire fight in a restaurant is a good idea?

Do you think that, maybe, a criminal in the States would have had the gun already and so more people would be dead?

Do you think that everyone who legally has a gun in the states carries it to MacDonald's?

Or are you just selling your perverted view of freedom?
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #14
18.  Only if they are properly licensed, or open carry is allowed.
Apparently the tough standards that UK law has concerning handgun possession failed in this case. Directly resulting in this mans death.
In the US we have the right, in most places, to defend ourselves against those who would do violence against us.


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. And you DON'T have an agenda?
Or are you just selling your perverted view of freedom?

Authoritarians like to portray freedom as perversion. It's what they do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #15
48. So, what you are saying is, "I have nothing to add of substance, so I will just insult you."?
Stay classy.
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GKirk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
20. Why was this included in the story:
"One of them, who had several gold teeth, shouted at Raymond"

What kind of conclusion are they trying to lead me to?
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. It is an unusual physical trait. I don't know anyone with gold teeth. Do you? nt
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
44. I have a gold tooth...
But you can't see it even if I smile. It's a cap all the way in the back on the upper row.

Now you know someone with gold teeth(tooth).
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #20
51. He gets into fights a lot, and needed replacement teeth?
:shrug:
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. Obviously some criminals have access to firearms in the U.K.
Who would have thought?
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
53. Yeah, criminals do tend to obey firearm bans
Just like they obey all of the other laws.

Oh wait, they're criminals, they don't obey the laws.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
28. Too bad effective self defense techniques are illegal in the UK, this guy had no chance
Criminals are emboldened when they know their victims are disarmed.
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pacalo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. But if McD's had a policeman on the premises, there would have been no fight,
no involvement of another customer, & no pursuit into an alley. McD's property would have been a safer environment.

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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Good idea
Lets see, how many cops do you think it would take to cover every business in the UK, or more to the point in the United States?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
38. You keep saying this.
But where is your evidence? Fights happen in front of police all the time. So do actual murders.

Why are you so adament about not taking responsibility for yourself?
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-24-11 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Are cops allowed to moonlight in UK?
Can't project our society or culture on to another.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #33
49. So you now advocate for armed security everywhere you go?
At least it will help with the employment issue.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. Yes, a policeman in every store, on every corner, and standing in front of over home.

Really? I don't think I want that much police in my life.

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LibertyFox Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
54. Requires a lot of foresight.

Otherwise you're looking at absurd costs placing security everywhere there could potentially be violence.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
55.  Would you be willing to pay enough taxes for this to happen in La.? n/t
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-25-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #33
59. It would be dept policy whether he
Could take side work like that. Toss up. Id guess no
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