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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:50 AM
Original message
It seems to me that there is an increasingly dedicated effort to squash any discussion here.
By the repeated spamming of anecdotal articles and drive-by postings. Apparently this is preferred by some over arguing on the facts, or even simply allowing some people to have differing opinions.
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 05:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. Perhaps some posters on both sides
Have come to the conclusion that either group is set in its ways and no amount of argument, evidence, or appeal to reason will sway people to a side.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. please define
a drive by posting
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. We accuse antis of being stubborn and ignoring facts
They do the same.
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. My dad was a labor democrat from the 60's-70's steel mills
Funny when he was active w/his union how they covertly recommend he have a firearm in the house for protection against anti-union company men. A brick through the window in the middle of the night was not unheard of during the strikes or during contract negotiating of that era.

I've often suspected that anti-union people were behind many gun control proposals.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Yeah
Especially in the west like Oregon and Colorado. What made Vermont unique is that they did not have a history of racism or anti union activity. I would not doubt that is part of the motivation behind Trump and other plutocrats that support Brady et al.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Donald Trump has a concealed weapons permit ...
In New York City (of all places).


Which celebrities have concealed-weapon permits?
Marc Anthony, Howard Stern, Donald Trump, Alexis Stewart among New York stars packing heat


Armed, but not dangerous.

The number of celebs allowed to carry guns is on the rise in NYC, reports the New York Daily News .

So, who can pack heat?

Marc Anthony, shock jock Howard Stern, Robert De Niro, Donald Trump, and his son, Donald Jr., Mets third baseman David Wright and even Martha Stewart's daughter, radio host Alexis Stewart, are all authorized to carry a concealed weapon in NYC, according to records obtained by the NYDN. (Bernie Madoff's son Andrew was denied a gun permit not even to keep a firearm in his home.)

Marc Anthony, seen with wife Jennifer Lopez in 2009, has a permit to carry a loaded weapon in New York City as well as in Nassau County, where he and Lopez own a $2 million home.


http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/39383672/ns/today-enterta... /

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. And he's an ahole.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. yup yup yup
:toast:
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Make it all but impossible for celebrities to get a permit, rather than opening to all.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #18
25. All people should have the same rights be they rich or poor ...
When only the rich, the famous and the well connected own or carry firearms then you have a situation that proves that gun control is racist. Modern day gun control in New York City is not so blatant that it bans just minorities from owning firearms, but instead bans the poor and lower middle classes from gun ownership. This is accomplished by charging high fees and placing numerous daunting obstacles in the path of those who wish to own or carry a firearm.

So the basic object of control in the Big Apple is to keep "those people" from owning firearms and it works.

I personally hate any type of racism and discrimination and therefore I find the gun laws in New York City to be offensive.

Of course, I disagree with your idea of tightening up the restrictions on celebrities. I really have no problems with the rich, the famous or the well connected owning or even carrying firearms legally. But if they can, any citizen that can meet the qualifications should also be able to own or carry a firearm. The fees and the proceeding should not be so high or difficult as to discourage gun ownership.

While should I as a citizen of the United States and a resident of Florida have more rights and opportunities than a citizen of the United States who happens to live in New York City?


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Starboard Tack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Who would ever want a gun or a car in NYC? Way too crowded.
And too busy. People don't have time for that shit. They're way too busy
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Downtown Tampa is also crowded ...
One chilly Sunday morning in the winter two co-workers of mine were using metal detectors to search a vacant block in downtown Tampa. A building had recently been torn down.

A man walked up to them, pulled a large knife and demanded their money.

One of my co-workers who had a concealed weapons permit pulled his jacket aside and placed his hand on a .45 automatic in a shoulder holster.

The mugger walked off swearing to himself.

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Starboard Tack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #28
36. I've lived in Tampa (3yrs) and NYC (9yrs) NO comparison. Sorry
Manhattan is a vertical city, Tampa is horizontal. That's just the physics and more than enough to preclude gunfire. Think about it.
Apart from that, I'm sure your friends could have achieved the same result without being armed. In fact, he didn't have to draw his weapon, just intimate. A guy trying to rob 2 guys with a knife in broad daylight is obviously not playing with a full deck. He got lucky with your friend and I applaud his restraint, but truth is the streets are full of mentally challenged individuals like that who get shot by rookie or just nervous cops every day.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. So you are saying that vertical cities should not allow citizens to carry firearms ...
because of physics?

Interesting.

The police in New York City are armed. Do they get special training because of the physics of a vertical city? I'm sorry, I don't buy that line of reasoning. If the police are allowed to carry firearms, so should the average honest citizen.

Of course you do realize that some civilians are allow to carry concealed in New York City. In most cases they are rich, famous or well connected like Donald Trump or Howard Stern. Is it possible that rich and famous people are capable of responsibility carrying a firearm in a vertical city where people like you and me are not? Are they superhuman while we are merely inferior beings?


The Rich And Famous
Saturday, February 19, 2011

Fitzgerald: The rich are different than you and me.

Hemingway: Yes, they have more money.

While this is actually a misquotation of a conversation between F. Scott Fitzgerald and Ernest Hemingway, when applied to New York City's pistol permits system, the rich (and famous) are different than you and me. They can get their pistol permit applications approved.
http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com/2011/02/rich-and-f...




The Rich, the Famous, the Armed
Published: February 18, 2011

MEN and women. Democrats and Republicans. Doctors, lawyers, merchants and moguls. A remarkable, if relatively small, cross-section of New Yorkers legally own handguns, according to public records obtained by The New York Times.

Among the more than 37,000 people licensed to have a handgun in the city are dozens of boldface names and public figures: prominent business leaders, elected officials, celebrities, journalists, judges and lawyers.

***snip***

The 41,164 handguns registered with the Police Department as of Jan. 14 include those owned by more than 2,400 people who live outside the city but have permission to bring their weapons here people like Roger E. Ailes, the president of Fox News, whose license lists an address in New Jersey; John J. Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley, who lives in Westchester County; and Sean Hannity, the conservative talk-show host, who lives on Long Island.

***snip***

There are no comprehensive statistics available on gun ownership nationally because most states do not require licenses or permits. But an annual survey by the Pew Research Center suggests that about one-third of the nations homes have a gun. In comparison, at most, about 1 percent of New York Citys households have a licensed gun.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/20/nyregion/20guns.html

Note: visit the link and click on the picture to view some of the people who have guns in NYC.


Lifestyles of the rich and packin': High-profile celebrities seeking gun permits on the rise
Monday, September 27th 2010, 4:00 AM

Never fear J.Lo - your husband Marc Anthony is one of dozens of celebrities authorized to carry a concealed weapon in New York City.

J.Lo and her 2-year-old twins can rest easy at night: Daddy is packing heat.

Singer Marc Anthony is one of dozens of celebs, millionaires and high-profile athletes authorized to carry a concealed weapon in the city, records show.

Other big names licensed to carry a gun include actor Robert De Niro, shock jock Howard Stern and supermarket mogul John Catsimatidis. Billionaire Donald Trump and his son, Donald Jr.; celebrity lawyer David Breitbart, and artificial-heart inventor Robert Jarvik can also carry steel, police records reveal.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/27/2010-09-...




You also made an interesting comment that all my two friends had to do was to "intimidate" the guy "obviously not playing with a full deck". That might have worked and it might not have. Remember, the guy wasn't entirely rational to begin with and often such people are not predictable. Let me assure you, if a person knows how to use a knife, he can slice and dice even two guys. I've had some training in disarming a man with a knife and as our jujitsu instructor told us, there is a good chance that you will get cut even if you do everything right.

You accuse cops who shoot such people as "rookies" or being "just nervous". I was just talking to an experienced police officer (a deputy sheriff with 10 years experience in law eforcement) in the last week and for some reason the topic of a man armed with a knife came up. He said that he would consider using his TASER on such individual if he was far enough away and not attacking. However he was close or rushing, the officer said he would use his pistol. He said a knife would go right through his ballistic vest and he had no desire to mess around with anyone armed with a lethal weapon that could kill him.





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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. "... vertical cities should not allow citizens to carry firearms ......"
I can't make top or bottom of that...

:rofl:
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. LOL. Good one. (n/t)
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #37
41.  He believes that civilians AND police should be disarmed, n/t
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. criminals arent too busy. nt
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Bloombergs body guards, apparently.
And a host of other elites.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #33
40. Guns for me and not for thee. (n/t)
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #10
35. Gun control is indeed classist and racist in its origins and practice
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DWC Donating Member (584 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 06:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. A few mindless extremists on both sides
can not change the fact that this is the best site on the web for information and open discussion / debate on this important subject.

Thank You DU!

Semper Fi,
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. You are absolutely correct, IMO. DU rocks. (n/t)
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
5. The emotion letting is healthy for both sides.
My teen son attended a leadership conference on democracy. I asked him at the end of the week what he learned. He said that democracy is loud and chaotic.

Even when some passionatly disagree w/me, I'd like to think I'm amoungst friends.
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
6. Sour grapes...
and sore losers (as posted in the "Ask The Administrators" forum).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Nothing really new about the sentiments expressed in the above links.

Over the years, it's become apparent to me that there are a number of "deep thinkers", "progressives" and "liberals"
that are unhappy that a Guns forum even exists on DU.
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Remmah2 Donating Member (971 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. It's pretty offensive when some try to stifle opinions and ideas.
So much for the democratic process and being open minded.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
29.  It is also offenesive when someone lies about another's post. n/t
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. They don't like the 2nd, not a big fan of the 1st either it seems
I guess some folks can't see the irony of wanting "those people" (pick any group to fill that role, in this case gun owners) out of their sight and mind while still claiming to be staunch progressives. "It's almost like "Well can't you at least keep those people in their little gun ghetto?"

I really appreciate the responses, especially Skinner's to the threat of staying out of the Gungeon. Kind of like; "I'm going to hold my breath and turn blue until you do what I say!"
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 08:15 AM
Response to Original message
8. I think posts should be locked where there is just a news story posted with no comment from OP. n-t
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
13. small minds discuss people
Average minds discuss current events

Great minds discuss ideas.

Unfortunately I can't remember who said that. :)
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Elanor Roosavelt (permit holder BTW) NT
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
14. That's really nothing new here
Those drive-by anecdotal posters know that they have no facts, just feelings and wants to support their side of the debate. They would rather just shout down their opposition.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. but I like spam
:D
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Everybody knows that by now...
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. We ALL know that
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. I like Spam, too, but the kind in a can. Not your kind. n/t
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
30.  Fried? n/t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. No, there is a dedicated effort to facilitate Democratic discussion of gun issues
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 10:29 PM by jpak
The Gungeon will not be an Echo Chamber for GOP/NRA BS

yup
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Instead of making quick posts, you could do more for your side ...
if you would present a well thought out post possibly with links and statistics. You would be fun to debate and we both might learn something.

I'm a Democrat and I support RKBA as do many other Democrats. Often I agree with the NRA but frequently I hold a different viewpoint. For example, I favor creating a system that allows private sellers to use the NICS background check system to insure that the people who purchase their firearms are not criminals or suffer from adjudicated mental problems that might make their owning firearms dangerous to others.


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LibertyFox Donating Member (124 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 04:49 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. +1
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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
42. Spin the other one.
Edited on Sat Apr-16-11 01:46 PM by Straw Man
It's got bells on it.

The Gungeon will not be an Echo Chamber for GOP/NRA Brady/VPC BS

There: I fixed it for ya.
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
23. Look at it this way: a common complaint in GD, GDP, LBN is that trolls get TS'd too fast,
before DUers have had a chance to play with them.

But in Guns, the troll-like personages are internal, so the pro-rights progressives can kick them around as long as they feel like. It's kind of a luxury, actually... :)
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Logical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-16-11 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. +1
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-17-11 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
44. "It's a feature, not a bug..." n/t
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