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Question- Is this a good way to hold a rifle?

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n2doc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:24 AM
Original message
Question- Is this a good way to hold a rifle?

U.S. Army Sgt. Ryan Fox (left), with Bravo Company, 3rd Battalion, 15th Infantry Regiment, 4th Advise and Assist Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division, assists Iraqi army soldiers assigned to 8th Iraqi army Brigade, 1st Division, as the soldiers practice Military Operations in Urban Terrain procedures at Camp Taqaddum, Iraq, on March 8, 2011. DoD photo by Staff Sgt. Tanya Thomas, U.S. Army. (Released)
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/03/were-still-war-phot...

Seems like they would be in a bit of trouble if they actually fired it from that position. Or am I wrong?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Looks like...
The recoil could break your collar bone.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. It's only .223.
No worry. Though he is holding the stock a half inch, to an inch too high.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. The M-16/M-4 has very little recoil.
The 5.56mm that it uses is a low powered rifle cartridge. That isn't a firing position but is a instantly ready carry position. From that position a soldier can quickly bring the rifle into proper firing position.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. Out of line, just a bit
The AR platform (M16 A2 pictured) calls for a less traditional shoulder hold than the old wooden stock rifles.

Because of the straight line nature of the recoil system and the higher sight mount, most soldiers hold the rifle "high on the shoulder" with just a portion of the stock actually in the pocket to get a decent cheek weld with the sights mounted on the carry handle. It actually looks stranger than it feels.

Recoil is not much of an issue with the 5.56 round.

By the time this man is actually on the range he'll probably have it set up properly with the lower half or so of the stock in the shoulder pocket.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
3. they don't kick much... I've seen people hold the buttstock against groins and foreheads for laughs
The M16 and AK47 rifles don't kick too much at all. I've seen people demonstrate this by placing the buttstock against the forhead or "groin". They're in no trouble in that pic at all. In fact, I'd guess they're just doing somthing with the sights. You have two guys "aiming" rifles about 10ft from their feet... I doubt they plan or are prepared to shoot the rifles in this photo.

Keep in mind that the M16, AR15, & AK47 are all relatively weak in the world of rifles. "Assault Rifles" by definition fire intermediate rounds that are of low to medium power. By design, they are meant to shoot smaller lighter rounds so the weapon and soldeir can be equipped to hold a much higher number of rounds. That is why the military moved GIs away from .45acp and 7.62mm ammunition to 9mm and 5.56mm ammo.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
4. Looks to me like..
Edited on Mon Apr-04-11 11:44 AM by virginia mountainman
They are practicing, and in that position, the rife is at a "ready" state, as in "ready to be brought up to shoulder"

You don't walk around pointing a rifle, unless your are about to shoot something. And if your "on guard for something that could or could not happen in the next little bit" That would be the position you would us. In the position pictured, the rifle's next state of readiness would be on "the shoulder"

In short the "At ready" position (that is sort of) pictured, is somewhere between "at rest" and "at shoulder"

Also remember that photographs, ONLY capture a split second of time..and they STOP movement. The shutter could have been snapped as the trooper was being shown how to shoulder the rifle.

If we had 30 seconds of video taken at the same time as the photo, things would be much clearer to us.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Actually my best guess here is that the Army Sgt is showing them stance and sight picture...
That is probably why the rifle is pointed towards the ground. You can see the same in the other Iraqi soldier in the background as well.

Holding the rifle a little high out of the pocket is not unusual for the rifle, as there is very little recoil at all from the 5.56 round in that rifle. And as was stated in another post the sights sit about 2 inches above the barrel and to achieve a good and consistent sight picture it is common to hold it a little higher.

Another guess is that when the soldier brings it up to fire the butt-stock will sit a bit lower into the pocket. But pictured here, they are most likely just being familiarized with the rifle and not ready to actually fire it.

One thing I can say for certain without guessing. They all seem to be having fun with each other.

As you can see from the below pictures it is not uncommon...



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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. So the evil, evil, pistol-grip stock...
...helps control the recoil of the mild 5.56x45mm cartridge? Preventing pain and abuse to the shooter's shoulder?



Obviously pistol grips were forged by Satan and need to be banned, amen.
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cognoscere Donating Member (381 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
9.  I don't buy the high-sight plane = higher weapon position because...
Edited on Mon Apr-04-11 12:43 PM by cognoscere
if the sights were, say, six feet above the barrel, the weapon would have to be lowered near the ground in order to line up the sights. Conversely, when bore sighting a bolt action rifle, it has to be raised high enough to look through the bore. My theory is that the straighter stock design has something to do with it. I have to make a conscious effort to lower my AK a couple of inches when shouldering it, but not with the 12 gauge, the Mosin, or the .17 HMR, all of which have stocks that drop...a couple of inches more than the AK.
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Your point is quite valid.
There are many things that play into how the rifle is shouldered. I do wholeheartedly agree with you that the stock is the main reason for how the weapon is shouldered.

After purchasing my AR, it took quite a bit of time to get used to consistently placing my cheek on the weld in the exact same position every time.

One thing I used to have the hardest time doing to switching from different types of firearms. And yes, the stock plays a major role in it.

Shotgun for skeet shooting = Barrel higher than cheek weld on the stock. So I bend my neck forward, then lay it across the stock for a sight picture. Below is a perfect example of what it should look like. Notice that the neck is not leaning to the right much at all.


My good old M1 = Again the barrel is higher then the weld. So again the neck is bent forward then the cheek placed across on the stock. Again, a professional picture of what it should look like. Again notice how the neck does not lean to the right much at all either.


But on the AR = the barrel is inline with the top of the stock. So the shooter's neck does not go quite as far forward, but will lean over the stock quite a bit more. If the sights were lower and the charging handle out of the way, the shooter would most likely lean the neck slightly more forward and not tilt it as sideways over the stock as much, the byproduct of that would actually lower the stock into the pocket at bit. Notice the right tilt to the neck.


But yes, as you said the stock is the major player in how the weapon is shouldered.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
10. Coincidently, I just saw Battle LA this past weekend
And noticed many of the actors in the film, who were portraying Marines, were using the same "high" stance. I was watching the film saying to myself "WTF is this?"
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Very common when burdened with 2-4 inches and 30-60 pounds of body armor and LBE. n/t
Edited on Mon Apr-04-11 07:35 PM by PavePusher
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. He's showing them how to carry the rifle while moving
in the evebt of contact the barrle comes up and the stock comes slightly down
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-11 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
13. Take into account the soldiers is not wearing body armor.
Had he been wearing body armor the rifle would be pushed forward a few inches, that's why they are trained to carry the stock above their body armor.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 06:34 AM
Response to Original message
15. Looks to me like they're being instructed in establishing sight picture
But the soldiers in question--both the lad in the foreground and his mate on the right--are keeping their rifles pointed at the ground so as to avoid sweeping their fellow trainees.

Speaking for myself--as a Dutch army inactive reserve infantryman who was trained on a FAL, and as a private U.S. citizen owns an AR carbine--I would neither fire a rifle from, nor move with it in that position. To bring it into a decent firing position from there, you'd have to first move the rifle forward to get the butt in a position from which you can brace it against the shoulder (preferably in "the pocket"), and then reverse the movement so as to actually put it against the shoulder. Much simpler to carry the weapon further forward and down, so that you can present it in a single movement.

Seems like they would be in a bit of trouble if they actually fired it from that position.

It's not going to inflict serious pain, let alone injury, because the 5.56x45mm isn't what you'd call a hard-kicking round. But I would count too hard on actually hitting the target, because the shooter wouldn't be creating the stable tripod for the weapon.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-05-11 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
16.  Good for a mouse gun, but I would not try it that way with a real battle rifle! n/t
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