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Letters : Open-carry bill wrong move for strapped state (Palm Beach Post)

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 04:58 PM
Original message
Letters : Open-carry bill wrong move for strapped state (Palm Beach Post)
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/opinion/letters/letters-op...

State Sen. Greg Evers, Crestview, champion of Senate Bill 234, is the latest Florida legislator to have mortgaged his thought processes to the National Rifle Association. His bill would allow for "open carry" of guns in Florida, even on college campuses. The esteemed senator is callous in his disregard for the potential damage to the state, on five counts:

Open carry would undermine the quality of education at colleges and universities. The first order of business, particularly for out-of-state students and professors, would be courses on how to handle students brandishing guns. I could see Nobel laureates lining up to teach in Florida's "have gun, will pretend to learn" universities in short order.

Open-carry courses soon would replace courses in science, engineering, medicine and the humanities. And while countries such as China and India forge ahead, catch up to us, and indeed surpass us in fields such as engineering, the sciences and mathematics, we will counter them by brandishing our firearms at them from our seats of higher learning.

Good luck attracting businesses. Most enterprises at the cutting edge of technology tend to eschew the potential for gun violence. This does not include the higher insurance, recruiting and retaining costs that would arise.

<much more>

open carry is an excuse to intimidate

yup
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. as long as I get to carry a rocket launcher, I don't care.
It would be useful if I am simultaneously jumped by 125 car jackers all at once, which as people tell me in this forum, is not beyond the realm of possibility.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. Aw, what the hell
I'll ask.

How would you insure the safety of those who are assaulted by another using a knife, club, fists or feet without the use of a firearm?
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mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. As hard as it is to imagine, there are people who think letting others be robbed, raped and killed
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 05:19 PM by mediator
is preferable to allowing them any significant means to protect themselves or their loved ones. Some of them even claim to be Democrats. :shrug:
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Yep. Ideology fail
I note that the OP, who seems to be able to post here 24/7 is strangely silent.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Bullshit - there are NO people who think letting others be robbed, raped and killed is OK
yup
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mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. You obviously don't read, only write.
...
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. Badump TINK !
I had a couple of those today . Some can ask , but not listen . Some can do neither .
I have learned to grin and nod , avoiding eye contact .
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #10
28. link! link!
Show us these people that want rape and murder.

yup
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. There is a question pending in post #2. nt
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
13. Law enforcement - cops on the beat
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 06:01 PM by jpak
rollin'

hatin'

patrolin'

etc.

:D
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Yet the police have no legal duty to protect you. n/t
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Ohh NOOOes the Boogeyman!!111
:rofl:

Protect and Serve

yup
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Slogans != legal duty..
As of 2008, there were about 700,000 police officers across the United States in the field (1). There are approximately 310,000,000 residents of the US (2). If you assume three shifts, and 10% are out sick, on vacation, in court, in training, or desk duty for one reason or another, that means that there is one officer for every 1476 people.

Assuming that "your" officer isn't busy with one of the other 1475 people, average response time from 911 to flashing lights is about nine minutes nationwide, but if you live in a city like Detroit, the average is 24 minutes (3); Chicago often has times as high as 26 minutes (4); in New York, ten minutes in 1999 (5). According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, most violent crime is perpetrated in under eight minutes. (6)

With a ratio like that, and response times like those, it's a practical necessity that the person most responsible for your safety is you.

But what the heck, let's assume we had one patrol officer per person, shadowing you at all times. He or she would be obligated to protect you from harm, right? After all, the slogan on the side of the car says "to protect and serve". Right?? RIGHT??? No, not really.

In multiple states, at the local, state, and federal level, police have not been held accountable for failing to protect individuals. Let's examine some of the cases.

Riss v. City of New York

http://lawschool.courtroomview.com/acf_cases/10107-riss...

Brief Fact Summary

Plaintiff was harassed by a rejected suitor, who claimed he would kill or seriously injure her if she dated someone else. Plaintiff repeatedly asked for police protection and was ignored. After the news of her engagement, the plaintiff was again threatened and called the police to no avail. The next day, a thug, sent by the rejected suitor, partially blinded the plaintiff and disfigured her face.

Rule of Law and Holding

The municipality does not have a duty to provide police protection to an individual. It has a duty to the public as a whole, but no one in particular.


Keane v. Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1st Dist. 1968)

Silver v. Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (Minn. 1969)

Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App.3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975).

Sapp v. Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla. App. 1st Dist.), cert. denied 354 So.2d 985 (Fla. 1977); Ill. Rec. Stat. 4-102

Jamison v. Chicago, 48 Ill. App. 3d 567 (1st Dist. 1977)

Wuetrich V. Delia, 155 N.J. Super. 324, 326, 382, A.2d 929, 930 cert. denied 77 N.J. 486, 391 A.2d 500 (1978)

Stone v. State, 106 Cal.App.3d 924, 165 Cal Rep. 339 (1980)

Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C.App 1981)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Colu...

The Court, however, does not agree that defendants owed a specific legal duty to plaintiffs with respect to the allegations made in the amended complaint for the reason that the District of Columbia appears to follow the well established rule that official police personnel and the government employing them are not generally liable to victims of criminal acts for failure to provide adequate police protection. This uniformly accepted rule rests upon the fundamental principle that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any particular individual citizen.


Chapman v. Philadelphia, 290 Pa. Super. 281, 434 A.2d 753 (Penn. 1981)

Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 616 (7th Cir. 1982)

Davidson v. Westminster, 32 Cal.3d 197, 185, Cal. Rep. 252; 649 P.2d 894 (1982)

Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C.App. 1983) (Only those in custody are deserving of individual police protection)

Morris v. Musser, 84 Pa. Cmwth. 170, 478 A.2d 937 (1984)

Calogrides v. Mobile, 475 So. 2d 560 (Ala. 1985); Cal Govt. Code 845

DeShaney v. Winnebago County, 489 U.S. 189 (1989)

Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Rock_v._Gonzales

During divorce proceedings, Jessica Gonzales, a resident of Castle Rock, Colorado, obtained a restraining order against her husband on June 4, 1999, requiring him to remain at least 100 yards from her and their three daughters except during specified visitation time. On June 22, at approximately 5:15 pm, her husband took possession of the three children in violation of the order. Gonzales called the police at approximately 7:30 pm, 8:30 pm, 10:10 pm, and 12:15 am on June 23, and visited the police station in person at 12:40 am on June 23, 1999. However, the police took no action, despite the husband's having called Gonzales prior to her second call to the police and informing her that he had the children with him at an amusement park in Denver, Colorado. At approximately 3:20 am on June 23, 1999, the husband appeared at the Castle Rock police station and instigated a fatal shoot-out with the police. A search of his vehicle revealed the corpses of the three daughters, whom the husband had killed prior to his arrival.
...
The Court's majority opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia held that enforcement of the restraining order was not mandatory under Colorado law; were a mandate for enforcement to exist, it would not create an individual right to enforcement that could be considered a protected entitlement under the precedent of Board of Regents of State Colleges v. Roth; and even if there were a protected individual entitlement to enforcement of a restraining order, such entitlement would have no monetary value and hence would not count as property for the Due Process Clause.

Justice David Souter wrote a concurring opinion, using the reasoning that enforcement of a restraining order is a process, not the interest protected by the process, and that there is not due process protection for processes.


(1) http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos160.htm - 900k total, 700k who are not detectives, supervisors, managers, fish and game wardens, or transit and railroad police.
(2) http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
(3) http://detroit.blogs.time.com/2010/04/19/in-detroit-imp...
(4) http://www.suntimes.com/news/commentary/476590,CST-EDT-...
(5) http://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/24/nyregion/police-are-c...
(6) http://www.icpsr.umich.edu/NACJD/NCVS/
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes, we should heavily tax guns and ammo to pay for more police
problem solved

yup
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mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. I'm pretty sure it's against DU rules to call you a
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 06:55 PM by mediator
...

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:03 PM
Original message
I'm pretty sure it is too
:rofl:
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
33. Unconstitutional. See Minneapolis Star & Tribune Co. v Minnesota Commissioner of Revenue
A tax on newsprint and ink was ruled unconstitutional infringement of the First Amendment.

http://law.jrank.org/pages/12734/Minneapolis-Star-v-Min...

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.asp...

http://supreme.justia.com/us/460/575/case.html


And guns and ammo are already taxed at 11% + sales tax where applicable.


You not only fail Con. Law, you fail at knowledege of the subject you pontificate about....

yup. (x2!)
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
34. Doesn't matter if they outnumber people 1000 to 1... still no duty to protect.
Perhaps you need to read my post again.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. How do you plan
to teach the cops to jump through a rip in the fabric of time?

:rofl:
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. If that letter writer is a professor, I'd think he'd be able to count to 5
And I'm not sure why he thinks that universities would start teaching courses on open-carry, that assertion is just bizarre.

Those flaws aside, it does seem that his complaints could be addressed by shall-issue concealed carry, without financial barriers or other impediments. People would not be frightened by exposed firearms, the intimidation factor would go away (and if it did arise, the charge of brandishing/threatening would be easy to make), and everyone could be assured that everyone legally carrying in public had successfully completed training...
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Blown330 Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It seems to be his M.O.
Start a topic, spew the usual rhetoric, and retreat before he can be inconvenienced by facts, logic, or common sense. Long on noise and short on substance.


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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. The comments have pretty well destroyed him...
The paper only published anti letters but the comments more than made up for it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. You're right, of course but the temptation to swat irksome flying insects is awfully strong.
:D
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I could never put anyone on ignore
They are all special little flowers .
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. There are posters in all the forums here whose purpose is only to spam and troll
However, the discussion, and dismantling, of that spam and troll-dribble can be interesting and informative - remember, every thread gets more readers than posters and thoughtful comments have more impact than the empty yammering (which is easy to glide right past without using the ignore feature, IME)...
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Most Duers avoid the gun forum for a reason - the need for all DUers to be informed
about gun issues compels me to post here.

Especially after Ft. Hood and Tucson

Lest we all wake up one day to asshole Free Staters marching up and down our streets with AKs with 75 round magazines.

yup
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. You're absolutely right - RKBA issues are important, and it's a shame that DUers might
avoid this forum. But for those that do come in, it's informative to see fact-free, groundless anti-gun spam dismantled so regularly - discussion and education (even if one-sided) is valuable, so I for one appreciate your contributions...
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. You do realize that one reason for the Ft. Hood body-count.....
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 09:13 PM by PavePusher
was that people on military bases are, in the deepest of irony, almost completely unarmed, right?

Next time you want to score political point on the backs of my dead comrades, why don't you just go publically fuck yourself into a coma instead, eh?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. Like your screen name
yup
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mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah, well, "SOM BHATTACHARYA" can suck my big fat one.
He sounds like some goofy peacenik with a degree from a matchbook cover.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. "SOM BHATTACHARYA" is highly educated will not suck your alleged
nope
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mediator Donating Member (228 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Too late, he already did. Nine times.
the first night...
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Charming
:rofl:
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
36. Are you that sure of his sexual orientation?
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
39. " highly educated ", your ignorance of the law and the courts is shown in every post. n/t
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
8. Odd. That hasn't happened in states that allow it. N/T
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
37. Where has it been a problem? Cite to evidence, please... n/t
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-20-11 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
40. Interesting faith based prophecy
"Open-carry courses soon would replace courses in science, engineering, medicine and the humanities."

They forgot to add the part where 5 month old babies will open carry to daycare. Dogs will wear cute little holsters for their guns and that drunks rapists and murderers will go get CCWs and all the drug dealers will get CCWs. In fact 200 million CCW holders murdered their whole families last year and CCW will make hair grow on your palms.
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