Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm

[demsrule4life]

Toward bottom of page "Crime Statistic Comparison"

http://police.kennesaw.ga.us/PoliceNews.aspx

[kalian]

1. Interesting....

It is also noted that crimes involving the use of a firearm are less than 2% of the total crimes reported.

Hmmm.....

[-..__...]

2. Hmmmmmmmmmmm....

:D

[Wickerman]

3. What is the gun law there that keeps crime below national averages?

City of Kennesaw 1981(Pre-Gun Law)

Population: 5,242

Burglaries: (per 100,000 pop): 1,026

Total Part 1 Crimes: (per 100,000 pop): 4,332



City of Kennesaw 1982(Post Gun Law)

Population: 5,308

Burglaries: (per 100,000 pop): 665

Total Part 1 Crimes: (per 100,000): 3,135

[demsrule4life]

4. Every household has to have a gun

but it isnt enforced.

[Wickerman]

5. thought this was the place

but then, looking at their links page, I wondered, cuz I didn't see anything about firearms, not even a gunsafety page.

[MrBenchley]

17. Utterly useless, then, isn't it?

Why aren't the cops enforcing this law?

[demsrule4life]

22. Maybe it is so well complied with

that they dont have to. :)

[MrBenchley]

23. Yeah, surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre.....

[demsrule4life]

24. Could beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[MrBenchley]

26. Maybe for people who believe

Mary Rosh is a scientist ...

[demsrule4life]

30. Sucks don't it

with everything the antis preach about has never worked in real life.

[MrBenchley]

Nope...

Every thing we "preach" works....which is why the RKBA crowd has to depend on right wing cesspools like Newsmax, dishonest statistics from Sumphole Springs, and outright lies like the phony British bloodbath.

[demsrule4life]

36. I see that working everyday

In Chicago, NYC, DC. The great experiment has failed.

[MrBenchley]

38. Keep on pretending

and I'll keep working....

[demsrule4life]

39. Must be doing a good job

since more states have issue laws that don't.

[slackmaster]

37. Let's apply a little scrutiny to that pithy comment...

Every thing we "preach" works....

- Ballistic Fingerprinting - In place in Maryland and New York state for several years; millions spent and not a single crime solved.

- Misnamed Assault Weapon Ban (actually a moratorium that doesn't ban anything) - No evidence that it's contributed to falling crime rates.

- Against Fair-Issue CCW Laws - No evidence that discretionary-issue or no-issue states are safer. Much-anticipated blood running in the streets has not materialized. Popularity of fair-issue laws a clear indication that opposing it is bad policy for anyone who wants to get elected to office.

- Australian Semiauto, etc. Ban - Homicide rate remains as flat as a pool table. Fewer fatal shootings, but more fatal beatings and stabbings. Sure, there hasn't been another "multiple shooting" rampage if you define it as four or more people shot dead within 24 hours, but the country is no safer to be in than it was 15 years ago.

- UK Handgun Ban - No reduction in violent crime. Robberies still common. Gun-related crime actually increasing.

- Canadian Firearm Registry - A BILLION DOLLAR boondoggle.

- DC and Chicago Gun Bans - Crime rates speak for themselves.

- Suing gun manufacturers for criminal misuse of legal products - Millions of dollars of public funds squandered on frivolous, futile suits based on a "novel" concept of liability that judges are rejecting left and right; federal legislation to exempt the gun industry from liability as an unintended consequence.

- Al Gore's failure to carry West Virginia, Arkansas, and Tennessee in 2000 and GOP domination of both houses of Congress - 'nuff said.

Yeah, great track record youse guys have going there. :eyes:

[1a2b3c]

60. this is one of those crickets chirping posts

I would bet money on it.

[RoeBear]

76. If I were an anti-gun loon...

...I wouldn't respond to it either.

It's really hard to dispute the truth.

(great post by the way) :toast:

[slackmaster]

34. There's a Conscientious Objector clause

Nobody actually has to keep a gun in their home.

The law is really a publicity stunt for the town.

[alwynsw]

33. It was passed as a poke at Downers Grove, Il

after the northern not-so-wise ones banned firearms ownership in their not-so-fair burb of Chicago.

[demsrule4life]

35. I thought it was for Moron Grove

sorry, I ment Morton Grove. (A police instructor in IL taught me that)

[alwynsw]

74. MIght be. I stink with names.

[alwynsw]

6. Interesting, verrrrry interesting

[MrBenchley]

7. Hmmmmmmmmm......

City of Kennesaw 1982(Post Gun Law)
Population: 5,308

City of Kennesaw 2002
Population: 22,664

Seems like somebody had to quarter the actual population to make the numbers come out right......

[CO Liberal]

8. Did The Get An Assist From John Lott/Mary Rosh????

:-)

It sounds like the sort of number juggling that scumbag is famous for.

[Superfly]

9. Corroborating sources

Area Connect

Kennesaw City

And....

Real Estate Guide

"In the town of Kennesaw, GA, every household is required by law to have a firearm on the premises.
Kennesaw also, perhaps coincidentally, has the lowest crime rate of any town in Georgia."

[MrBenchley]

14. Sure sounds like it, doesn't it?

[-..__...]

10. You might want to recheck those numbers.

From the original website


City of Kennesaw 1981(Pre-Gun Law)
Population: 5,242
Burglaries: (per 100,000 pop): 1,026
Total Part 1 Crimes: (per 100,000 pop): 4,332



City of Kennesaw 1982(Post Gun Law)
Population: 5,308
Burglaries: (per 100,000 pop): 665
Total Part 1 Crimes: (per 100,000): 3,135

----------------------------------------------

IOW, a year after the ordinance was passed, burglaries and total crime fell... even though there was an (insignificant), increase in population.


Fast forward 20 years (and the population as quadrupled), and the burglary and total crime is even less.

City of Kennesaw 2002
Population: 22,664
Burglaries: (per 100,000): 264
Total Part 1 Crimes (per 100,000): 2,345

U.S. Average 2002
Burglaries (per 100,000): 746
Total Part 1 Crimes (per 100,000): 4,118


Also from the original website.

Summary: Although the population of the City of Kennesaw and surrounding area has increased dramatically since 1981, on a per capita basis crimes rates were actually lower in 2002 than in 1981. It is also noted that crimes involving the use of a firearm are less than 2% of the total crimes reported.


http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/Demographics_Population.aspx


Population Demographics

The City of Kennesaw, Georgia is part of Cobb County, one of the fastest growing counties in the nation....


Like the surrounding Cobb County and Atlanta area, Kennesaw's population growth is intense. Kennesaw's population increased from 5,095 in 1980 to 21,675 in 2000, an increase of 325% in just 20 years;

[CO Liberal]

11. But How Does This Compare...

...with the rates for other towns in the area? Does anyone know?

[Superfly]

12. Statewide comparison...

Link

[Superfly]

13. Specific county comparisons

Link

Enjoy.

[MrBenchley]

19. I'd bet it's not any different at all...

By the way, Plains has about 600 people and no crime at all last year....

http://www.city-data.com/city/Plains-Georgia.html

You will notice Lawrenceville has about the same population and FEWER burglaries...

http://lawrenceville.areaconnect.com/crime1.htm

Clearly burglars are breaking into this sumphole's homes looking for the government-mandated guns....but since the law is not enforced...

[MrBenchley]

15. By the way

how do they enforce this imbecilic ordinance?

[demsrule4life]

16. Read my reply to Luna

[Wickerman]

43. I am still saddened that their website had nary a link to gun safety n/t

[demsrule4life]

45. There is a email address on the page

send them a letter and make a suggestion for it.

[Wickerman]

49. I certainly could, but I would've hoped

in a city where having a weapon is the law they would have some basics of gun safety. The number of accidential deaths by weapons is my largest concern of the RKBA issue. Growing up in the 60's in small town Iowa I knew of 3 accidential youth gun deaths. I knew of one vehicle death. I want a lot more education - if there would've been then, I might have had a larger graduating class.

[demsrule4life]

51. I have only been here in AL a little over a year

I can't recall (not saying it hasent happened) any one 17 and younger killed in a gun accident in North AL. And everyone here has guns. On the other hand teens getting killed here in cars is at least a weekly occurance.

[Wickerman]

53. So, weapons education isn't needed?

I know drivers ed has been cut to save dollars - brilliance!

[Superfly]

54. I think it is needed, but should be

left to parents, if it's kids we're talking about.

Classes should continue to be offered, but the decision to take any of them should be left to parents.

My firearms education came in the form of one-on-one instruction with my Dad and through various Boy Scout activities.

[MrBenchley]

55. Hmmmmmmm........

So everybody should be forced to have a gun, but all we can do is hope that they're not a menace to themselves and other.....

Ho-kay.

[demsrule4life]

56. Some body must be teaching them

if there are next to no accidents.

[MrBenchley]

57. Or else most people

recognize what an idiotic law it is and ignore it.

[Superfly]

58. Yep...that's called FREEDOM....

just in case you were wondering. You might want to try it sometime!

First step, leave New Jersey....hahahahahahahahahaha

[MrBenchley]

59. Hmmmmmmm....Mandatory gun ownership = freedom

Hahahahahahahaha....

[CO Liberal]

95. Last Time I Checked....

...doing what you're told does NOT equal "freedom" - it equals "tyranny".

So in other words, the pro-gunners in Kennesaw are tyrannically forcing their beliefs on their fellow townspeople. Hypocritically contradicting their position about opposing tyrrany.....

[beevul]

96. Careful making broad statements, CO...

"Last Time I Checked...doing what you're told does NOT equal "freedom" - it equals "tyranny"".-CO Liberal

one might get the idea that you are against anti-gunners in Wilmette that are "tyrannically forcing their beliefs on their fellow townspeople".

Somehow, I believe it only equals tyrany in the case of mandatory gun ownership and not prohibited gun ownership - in the minds of some folks anyhow.

[CO Liberal]

97. Oh, I Get It......

The pro-gun position ALWAYS equals Freedom, and the pro-control position ALWAYS equals Tyranny.

NOT!!!!!!!!!

[beevul]

98. Actually, I was referring to...

"tyrannically forcing their beliefs on their fellow townspeople"

the above statement. Well call it statement "A".

To condone "A" for the purposes of ones agenda, then to condemn "A" for the very same purpose, fits the textbook definition of hypocritical.



I guess I'll just have to ask you directly about "A".

Do you agree with "A" in Wilmette Ill ?(The "A" being in the form of a ban, and from what I have read of your posts, you do not object. Correct me if I am wrong.)

Do you agree with "A" in Kennesaw, GA?(The "A" being in the form of a mandate with Conscientious Objector clause, and from what I have read, you seem to object. Again, correct me if I am wrong.)

Now, If I read in this thread and the various others re:wilmette correctly, you agree in one case, and not in the other. People of the pro-gun persuasion might be interested in knowing why. You might explain to the lot of us why we shouldn't just consider that a hypocritical view from an anti-gunner dishonestly hiding behind the "pro-control" label.

I for one am all ears.

[CO Liberal]

100. The Difference Here

In Wilmette, they are not telling anyone they can't have any gun - just that they can't have handguns. Those who choose to can still own a rifle, or a shotgun, etc.

In Kennesaw, they are telling EVERYONE that the HAVE TO own a gun - whether they want to or not.

So IMHO, Wilmette is exercising reasonable control - Kennesaw is exercising tyranny.

[beevul]

104. Ok, were getting somewhere now...

Kennesaw also has this clause in the law:

"(b) Exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who suffer a physical or mental disability, which would prohibit them from using such a firearm. Further exempt from the effect of this section are those heads of households who are paupers or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs or religious doctrine, or persons convicted of a felony."

http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/CodeOfOrdinances.aspx


That makes this statement:

"In Kennesaw, they are telling EVERYONE that the HAVE TO own a gun - whether they want to or not."

Grossly inaccurate, and in a couple of ways.

Heres why. This statement "Further exempt...or who conscientiously oppose maintaining firearms as a result of beliefs" means YOU , CO, could opt out on beliefs not religious in nature.


Second, read the following and tell me who is being told they have to own a gun.

"Sec. 34-1 Heads of households to maintain firearms.
(a) In order to provide for the emergency management of the City, and further in order to provide for and protect the safety, security and general welfare of the city and its inhabitants, every head of household residing in the City limits is required to maintain a firearm, together with ammunition therefore."

http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/CodeOfOrdinances.aspx

The facts CO. Kennesaw's law applies only to heads of households that do not object based on beliefs religious or otherwise.

How was it again that this is somehow tyrannical compared to a ban?


And the payoff pitch...

Would you be supportive of a similar clause in the Wilmette case?

I mean, would you be supportive of a clause in the Wilmette handgun ban that would let ME, Beevul, decide that I myself oppose requirements of this nature and am hereby opting out of it because of my beliefs? (Providing I'm not a felon or mentally disabled)

Again, I am all ears.

[CO Liberal]

106. All I Know Is This

If given a choice, I'd rather live in Wilmette than Kennesaw.

[beevul]

108. I can understand...

and respect that, CO. However, it doesn't answer this question:

Would you be supportive of a clause in the Wilmette handgun ban that would let ME, Beevul, decide that I myself oppose requirements of this nature and am hereby opting out of it because of my beliefs? (Providing I'm not a felon or mentally disabled)

Again, I am all ears.

[CO Liberal]

109. You Can't Opt Out of a Ban

That's like saying that because of your beliefs, you're goind to sell heroin. Like it or not, you're engaging in an illegal activity in Wilmette if you live there and buy a handgun.

[beevul]

110. Whats that stuff at GNC for memory?

You must have forgotten saying this:

"Last Time I Checked...doing what you're told does NOT equal "freedom" - it equals "tyranny"."-CO Liberal




By your own words, the ban in Wilmette is tyrannical.

That, or your statement doesn't apply to things you agree with.

But, that would make you look like a hypocrite, and a pro-control-posing grabber to boot.

In all honestly , CO. I really want to believe you are pro-control , and not anti-gun, but you aren't making it too easy.

Taking all the facts into acount, which is a case of tyranny, Kennesaw or Wilmette- based on your statement?

"You Can't Opt Out of a Ban"-CO Liberal

Yeah, right, just like you can't opt out of a mandate.


If there were changes proposed to the ban in Wilmette, that allowed for clauses for those who were opposed to it based on beliefs, just like the clause in Kennesaw, would you oppose it?

[CO Liberal]

111. Please Stop Trying to Box Me Into a Corner

IMHO, The Kennesaw law is stupid. Period. Perhaps that's why is isn't enforced.

[MrBenchley]

113. Hard to say a law is any sort of mandate

when not even its supporters want to enforce it.

[MrBenchley]

112. Too bad GNC doesn't have anything for logic

"By your own words, the ban in Wilmette is tyrannical.
That, or your statement doesn't apply to things you agree with."
Or it could be that the handgun ban is Wilmette is legal (and has stood up in court) and this imbecilic law in Dogpatch is nothing but pinheads' symbolism...which is why it is not being enforced by the ignorant yokels who put it on the books.

"Yeah, right, just like you can't opt out of a mandate."
You can if the supposed mandate is both unenforceable and unenforced which this one is....in that case it's not a mandate, but just some deep-South pinheads showing their ignorance...like those other Georgians trying to get rid of evolution the other day.

"If there were changes proposed to the ban in Wilmette, that allowed for clauses for those who were opposed to it based on beliefs"
What beliefs would these be? The Church of the Creator? We know they're running around Kennesaw, ministering to their inbred flock.

[beevul]

116. Hardly conclusive Mr. Scott, since Klingons have no tear ducts.

I pin someone down based soully on what they said, and here comes the 5th Straw Batallion, and the A.ppeal to R.idicule R.angers to the rescue...MEDIC!!!:evilgrin:


"Or it could be that the handgun ban is Wilmette is legal (and has stood up in court) and this imbecilic law in Dogpatch is nothing but pinheads' symbolism...which is why it is not being enforced by the ignorant yokels who put it on the books."

A. We weren't discussing the legallity of the thing bench. Chalk up one loss for the Straw Batallion.

B. The legallity of a thing has little to do with its status of being tyrannical or not. Chalk up another loss for the Straw Batallion.


"What beliefs would these be? The Church of the Creator? We know they're running around Kennesaw, ministering to their inbred flock."-MrBenchley

Under the law in Kennesaw, one be an objector on grounds not religious, and therefore opt out.

Chalk up a combined loss to the A.R.R. and the 5th Straw Batt.

I smell a Straw draft coming...

[MrBenchley]

118. No, you railed at CO and he answered you too

And ridicule befits a "mandate" that not even its adherents take seriously enough to enforce..

[beevul]

119. Your right, I DID rail at him, and he had it coming...

for making the statement he did. As if anyone would ever let up on a pro-gunner if he recklessly painted himself into a corner.:eyes: I believe you'd have been all over it yourself if he was a pro-gunner hanging by the rope of his own words.

And no, the question was never answered.

"If there were changes proposed to the ban in Wilmette, that allowed for clauses for those who were opposed to it based on beliefs, just like the clause in Kennesaw, would you oppose it?"

The question remains unanswered.

Hows about you answer it bench?

[MrBenchley]

120. No, he showed your rant for what it was, too

"If there were changes proposed to the ban in Wilmette, that allowed for clauses for those who were opposed to it based on beliefs, just like the clause in Kennesaw, would you oppose it?"
Already gave that the answer it deserves.

Are you really trying to pretend there's a legitimate church that mandates the ownership of handguns? Even funnier, do you think anybody is actually dumb enough to believe there is?

[beevul]

121. Irrelivant...

because beliefs that qualify for opting out of the Kennesaw mandate do not have to be religious in nature.

Are YOU really trying to pretent that in order to opt out of the mandate that you have to do it on religious grounds?

"If there were changes proposed to the ban in Wilmette, that allowed for clauses for those who were opposed to it based on beliefs, just like the clause in Kennesaw, would you oppose it?"

"Already gave that the answer it deserves."

Tranlation= unable to answer because theres wet paint everywhere except this corner.

[MrBenchley]

124. Who are you trying to kid?

And the prophet LaPierre sayeth onto his followers....

"Are YOU really trying to pretent that in order to opt out of the mandate that you have to do it on religious grounds?"
Since ther yokels who put the "mandate" in place aren't enforcing it, it isn't a mandate. It's just a bit of gibberish on the books, like other blue laws in jerkwater burgs all over this country.

I gave your question all the answer it deserved. As did CO liberal.

[slackmaster]

115. Not quite right, CO

Peyote contains a Schedule I substance (mescaline) and is illegal for anyone to possess or use except by Native American tribes for bona fide ceremonial purposes.

See http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/42/1996a.html

[-..__...]

18. They don't.

(there are exceptions if they have a criminal record, religous reasons, etc).

However, if they're a law-abiding citizen, they'll comply with the law... funny how that works.

[MrBenchley]

20. Well, this certainly made ME go "hmmmmmmmm...."

as in "Hmmmm....how desperate is THIS going to get."

By the way, why wouldn't the law be enforced? Perhaps because it's idiotic in the extreme?

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Superfly]

25. That's a question we ask daily down here....

It's a futile tactic to attempt to deceive and confuse. All it really does is show desperate that crowd really is.

[MrBenchley]

27. Hahahahahahahaha....

[Superfly]

28. Exactly....ha, ha, ha indeed.

The antis' desperation is quite comical.

[-..__...]

29. Cry me a river, Fly.

:D

[Wcross]

75. What a pantload Fly....

They aren't desperate, just in denial.

[grower]

31. I still don't

understand why you deliberately misquoted the post

[DonP]

32. How about comparing it to "Gun Free" Wilmette, Illinois?

Site of the recent hubbub of Hale DeMar actually using a gun to defend his family and home from a burglar.

The population is sure a lot closer to the same size than a town of 600. One town outlaws handgun ownership the other requires it.

Just for laughs, to keep it apples and apples:

Crime in Gun Free Wilmette 2001
Population 27,045

Burglaries 466.5 per 100,000


Crime in the City of Kennesaw 2002
Population: 22,664

Burglaries: (per 100,000): 264


Let's just assume that since it's in Georgia, that them poor ignorant folks are just a whole town full of red necks that just aren't nearly as enlightened as those wise folk in Wilmette are.

They just served notice to criminals that the odds of running into an armed homeowner are a whole lot higher in Kennesaw than they might be in other towns.

Of course you are twice as likely to have your home broken into in Wilmette, but I guess that's the price you pay for being smarter than other folks.

Hmmmm, is right.

[MrBenchley]

40. Hmmmmmmm.....

So the ass-end of nowhere has an idiotic gun law they don't enforce....and a nearby town with just as many people that doesn't have that idiotic law has even fewer burglaries....

Hmmmmmmmmm.........

I wonder how much lamer RKBA arguments can get? Hmmmmmm.....

[demsrule4life]

41. "the ass-end of nowhere "

Yep, if the debate can't be won, throw insults. How the antis have been fighting for the thirty years I have been keeping track.

[MrBenchley]

42. Yup, when you've lost the debate

on facts, start sniveling about the tactics...

[slackmaster]

44. Better still

Impugn the source of every piece of information you don't like, and demean your opponents with scatological remarks and sexual put-downs.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[demsrule4life]

47. You should of started a new thread with this

[MrBenchley]

48. Rule Number 2

Not needed...the RKBA crowd never have any statistics that aren't horseshit.

[Withergyld]

61. Like the UN ICVS that shows the UK has a higher crime rate then the US??

I have yet to see this survey debunked or proved to be "horse shit"

The UN ICVS ahows that the UK has a HIGHER TOTAL crime rate then the US.
More from the survey:

http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/pdf_files/key2000i/index.htm

"Contact crime

An overall measure of contact crime was taken as robbery, assaults with force, and sexual assaults (against women only). The highest risks were in Australia, England and Wales, Canada, Scotland and Finland: over 3% were victims. This was more than double the level in USA, Belgium, Catalonia, Portugal, and Japan (all under 2%). In Japan the risk of contact crime was especially low (0.4%).

Robbery

Robbery was comparatively uncommon in all countries. Risks were highest in 1999 in Poland (1.8%), England and Wales, and Australia (both 1.2%). By far the lowest risks were in Japan and Northern Ireland (0.1%). On average, just over a third of victims of robbery said the offender(s) carried a weapon of some sort - in most cases a knife. There was a higher than average use of weapons in the USA, Catalonia, Scotland, and Portugal. Although not very statistically robust, the data indicate that guns were used relatively more often in Catalonia and the USA.

Sexual incidents

Two types of sexual incidents were measured: offensive sexual behaviour and sexual assault (i.e. incidents described as rape, attempted rape or indecent assaults). For all countries combined, just over one per cent of women reported offensive sexual behaviour. The level was half that for sexual assaults. Women in Sweden, Finland, Australia and England and Wales were most at risk of sexual assault. Women in Japan, Northern Ireland, Poland and Portugal were least at risk. Many of the differences in sexual assault risks across country were small. Generally, the relative level of sexual assault in different countries accorded with relative levels of offensive sexual behaviour - though there were a few differences.
Women know the offender(s) in about half of the all sexual incidents: in a third they were known by name, and in about a sixth by sight. (More assaults involved offenders known by name than did incidents of offensive sexual behaviour.) Most sexual incidents involved only one offender. Weapons were very rarely involved.

Assaults and threats

Taking all countries together, 3.5% were victims once or more of assaults or threats in 1999. Risks were highest in Australia, Scotland, England and Wales (about 6%) and Canada (5%). Risks were lowest in Japan, Portugal, (under 1%) and Catalonia (1.5%). Offenders were known in about half the incidents overall. Men were less likely to know offenders than women. Weapons (especially knifes) were said to have been used (if only as a threat) in just under a quarter of incidents."

I don't see any "horse shit" here.
:hi:

[MrBenchley]

62. I see plenty of horseshit

and very little else...

"For the countries covered in this report, interviews were mainly conducted by telephone (with samples selected through variants of random digit dialling). The overall response rate in the 17 countries was 64%. Samples were usually of 2,000 people, which mean there is a fairly wide sampling error on the ICVS estimates. The surveys cannot, then, give precise estimates of crime in different countries."

So in other words, roughly 1,300 people in each country selected at random....that sure seems scientific to me....NOT.

[Withergyld]

63. Your selective editing left out the next sentence:

"The surveys cannot, then, give precise estimates of crime in different countries. But they are a unique source of information and give good comparative information."

The UN wanted to better figures to compare crime between countries. Police statistics are difficult to compare so they designed this study.

"The reason for setting up the ICVS was the inadequacy of other measures of crime across country. Figures of offences recorded by the police are problematic due to differences in the way the police define, record and count crime. And since victims report most crimes the police know about, police figures can differ simply because of differences in reporting behaviour."

Mr B:
"So in other words, roughly 1,300 people in each country selected at random....that sure seems scientific to me....NOT."

I thought part of conducting a FAIR survey was to get a random sample??

What part of it is no scientific??

[MrBenchley]

64. So frigging what?

"they are a unique source of information and give good comparative information.""
Of what...of what 1,300 people picked at random say?

"I thought part of conducting a FAIR survey was to get a random sample??"
Here's a nice page with some of the basics of developing a meaningful survey...note that some effort ought to be made so that the target pool to be sampled randomly reflects the make-up of the larger population...not just every shut-in with a telephone who happens to be home during the day.

Note also that the size of the sample that is judged adequate for Wyndham in Australia is exactly the same size as the sample these yobbos used for the entire United States (and every other country).

http://www.vlgaconsultation.org.au/panels.shtml

If you remember back a couple weeks ago when the RKBA crowd was waving that idiotic O'Leary/Zogby poll around, one of the criticisms of Zogby polls is that he often selected his samples so that there were as many Republicans as Democrats...although in the real world Democrats outnumber Republicans about 51% to 37%...

http://www.thisnation.com/question/012.html

[Withergyld]

65. It doesn't say every sample was 2000 people

it says the USUAL sample size was 2000 not EVERY sample was 2000 people.
Read it again
:dunce:

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Withergyld]

67. I am glad that

your omniscience tells you that I'm desperate
:freak:
BTW nice editing job AFTER my reply

[MrBenchley]

68. Doesn't take much anything like omniscience

to see how desperately you're trying to spin there....so tell us how big do you think the sample was in the US...2,006? 1,937?

By the way, I thought suddenly about the phony O'Leary/Zogby poll AFTER I posted it...got anything to say about it now?

[Withergyld]

71. The sample sizes are there

look them up yourself
As someone here likes to say:
"If I had to choose between you and the UN I'll believe the UN"

[MrBenchley]

And they're all about 2000 people

[slackmaster]

73. So what?

:shrug:

Show your work.

[slackmaster]

72. I got straight "A"s in statistics

I know that you cannot judge whether or not a sample is of an appropriate size just by looking at it. Some serious technical analysis is required.

[RoeBear]

77. although in the real world Democrats outnumber Republicans about 51% to 37

Then why the hell do they keep kicking our asses on elction day?

[MrBenchley]

78. Gee, it couldn't be because the Republicans

find dishonest sideshows like "they're coming to grab your guns" to divide the Democrratic vote, could it?

[RoeBear]

79. So you admit that the arguement "they're coming to grab your guns"...

...is a winner for the Repubs? And how could we take that issue away from them? Hmmmm... maybe if we started respecting honest gun owners.

[MrBenchley]

80. Hey, so are the veiled appeals to racism and

the open gay bashing....as well as the constant din about abortion and prayer in the public schools....you want to grab the GOP agenda, there's nobody stopping you.

"And how could we take that issue away from them? "
How about the Democratic rootin' tootin' gun owners saying out loud on gun owners forums what shit all the gun rights crap is, instead of mindlessly repeating dishonest NRA propaganda on the Democratic forum?

[RoeBear]

83. You want Dem gun owners to say...

...what shit that being able to have fair issue CCW instead of Jim Crow issue CCW is?


You want Dem gun owners to say how they want their right to self defense taken away?


You want Dem gun owners to say they want an extension on the useless AWB ban?

Why the fuck would we do that?

[MrBenchley]

87. What a pantload

[RoeBear]

89. I'm honored to have the coveted 'pantload' award...

...everyone knows it means that you have no real arguement for the topic being discussed.

I'd like to thank my friends and family who made this award possible...

[MrBenchley]

92. You earned it trying to pretend Wisconsin is a "Jim Crow" state

and Georgia is not.

[CO Liberal]

81. Are The Repubs Respecting The Pro-Gunners' Intelligence????

No - they're playing to their fears by spreading lies about us.

[MrBenchley]

82. Hmmmmmmmmm.....

You will notice the GOP's appeals are to fear and/or hate. Gearing up for 2004 their chief issues seem to be "brown people are terrorists," "gay people will destroy your marriage" and "Democrats want to take away your God and your guns."

Of course, considering that their chief public spokesperson is a raving junkie, what else would you expect?

[slackmaster]

84. Good candidate for the Pot/Kettle post of the day

You will notice the GOP's appeals are to fear and/or hate.

And it's only 8:48 AM where I live.

[demsrule4life]

102. As the old saying goes

it is a complete waste of time to try to out polite the antis.

[alwynsw]

50. Since when is the Atlanta metropolitan area the ass end of nowhere?

It's one of the fastest growing areas in the US with a population of over 4 MILLION. http://www.world-gazetteer.com/d/d_us_ga.htm

Check Mapquest. Kennesaw is a suburb of Atlanta.

There is intelligent life outside of the New York-Philadelphia metropolitan area. And most of it lives better.

[demsrule4life]

52. And one guess where most of those

people are escaping from.

[davidinalameda]

69. Kennesaw--isn't that where the Confederate Mt Rushmore is

:shrug:

[Superfly]

70. No...

You are referring to Stone Mountain, which is to the east of Atlanta. Kennesaw is to the Northwest.

[davidinalameda]

85. thank you for clarifing that

[MrBenchley]

88. Kennesaw has other fine things to "boast" about

Like the University....

"You've got to remember, Sonny, some of Kennesaw State's history. I know that Newt Gingrich was a good Republican, but he did connive with the school in his hokey political action committee money-laundering scheme that got him a good slap from fellow Congress members. That was some bad press for Georgia, thank you Kennesaw State.
And professors keep trying to teach courses on things like the "culture" of Nazi Germany. (Springtime for Hitler?) It wasn't so much that the course title implied a warm and fuzzy attitude toward the goosesteppers, but that the university yanked the course so that the press and the public wouldn't be reminded of the frequent eruptions of anti-Semitism on the campus.
The equal opportunity racists at the National Alliance happily plaster the campus with hate literature, and the administration never expressed concern until CL applied some heat. There have been, according to court records, swastikas painted on walls and doors at the library, anti-Semitic literature slipped under doors (comparing Jews to orangutans), graffiti (including "Kill the Jews") scrawled on walls. And there has to be something in the long series of lawsuits, discrimination complaints and reports of racist slurs and abusive behavior. "

http://atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2003-02-05/fishwrapper.html

and the churches...

"The National Alliance has a branch in Stone Mountain, the SS
Action Group in Covington, SS of America in Marietta, the True
Knights, Aryan Nation in Experiment, the Church of the Avenger in Cordele, and the Church of the Creator in Kennesaw. "

http://www.pinknoiz.com/right/cdr2.html

and the celebrities who live there....

"He spoke to a crowd of about 100, and the makeup of that gathering is interesting.   The organizer of the event, Mark Cotterill, is the former chairman of the national capital region chapter of the Council of Conservative Citizens, a racist group that grew out of the White Citizens Council.  Mr. Cotterill said that, while the Council of Conservative Citizens did not sponsor this event, many in the audience were members of that organization.  They paid $10 each to hear David Duke and another racist rabble-rouser, Edward Fields, of Kennesaw, Ga.
The Council of Conservative Citizens is the same group that was addressed in the past by Sen. Trent Lott of Mississippi, and by Rep. Bob Barr, the Georgia Republican who was one of the leaders of the move to impeach President Bill Clinton. "

http://www.ferris.edu/isar/Institut/CCC/pbpost0010699.htm

[RoeBear]

90. I f you have no facts...

...just call'em all racists.

[CO Liberal]

91. Those Look Like Pretty Convincing Fact to Me, RoeBear

Kennesaw does not appear to be the kind of place I'd want to live. It's bad enough I have to work in Colorado Springs, a virtual cesspool of conservatism.

[MrBenchley]

93. Of course to RoeBear

Wisconsin is a Jim Crow state...

[Romulus]

99. Jim Crow state just like New Jersey

http://www.rediff.com/search/2001/apr/05hate.htm
In Jersey City, around a decade ago, a gang called 'The Dotbusters' began a planned attack to drive all Indians from their city.

http://modelminority.com/printout103.html

Charles Apprendi, a pharmacist, was arrested on Dec. 22, 1994, for firing several rounds from his rifle into a nearby single family home. The residents were the only black family living in his all-white neighborhood in Vineland, New Jersey.

*snip/same page*

New Jersey's Indian Community Is Terrorized by Racial Violence (1992)
As the Indian community has grown, hostility has increased as well. The occasional insults have turned to violence like that which erupted five years ago in Hudson County, N.J., an immigrant way station since the Dutch colonized New York and home now to more than 11,000 Indians.

A Jersey City gang calling itself "The Dotbusters" - named for the dot, or bindi, that Indian women often wear on the forehead as a sign of marital fidelity - wrote a letter published in a local newspaper saying the group would "go to any extreme" to drive Indians from Jersey City. The next day a man was beaten in his home, apparently after his name had been picked out of a telephone book.

The following month a young Indian doctor was beaten unconscious and a month later a man was beaten to death by a group of teenagers. Other Indians reported being beaten.

As the intensity of anti-Indian violence diminished in Jersey City, it increased about three years ago in Middlesex County -- mainly in the Edison-Iselin area, about 30 miles from New York City.

*snip*

Late the following night, a five-car caravan of gang members, all in their late teens or early twenties, drove through Hilltop Estates, a sprawling garden apartment complex where hundreds of Indian families live, calling on people to come out of their homes and screaming "dots die" and "we're going to kill you dotheads," according to Paul Goldenberg, head of the state attorney general's Office of Bias Crime and Community Relations. . . One of those arrested was an auxiliary police officer.





Sounds like a great place. . .:eyes:

[demsrule4life]

101. Who would of guessed

this coming from a state with more hate groups than Idaho.

[CO Liberal]

126. Old Stories, RoeBear....

And I think it's safe to assume that the majority of these "model citizens" you've brought to our attention were probably toting guns.

Puts you in some rather bad company, if you ask me.

[MrBenchley]

127. Worth noting

So far I've failed to find a single hate group that wasn't also preachinng this idiotic and dishonest gun rights crap.

[demsrule4life]

128. How about the I hate guns group

I doubt you here it from them.

[MrBenchley]

130. No, dems, you hear the truth from them

Not like the lying scum pushing that dishonest "gun rights" horseshit...DeLay, AshKKKroft, Chimpy, Cheney, Trent Lott, David Duke, Mary Rosh, etc. etc. etc.....

[demsrule4life]

103. I don't know how you can say that since you never lived there

I can understand Colorado Springs, it is filled with retired Air Force officers, myself I wouldn't call them conservatives, I just call them weird. With my job here I work several different places, I see blacks and whites getting along, going out together to to buy food for other black and whites at lunch time, I have not seen much of that on the east coast. My neighbors keep out of my business, but then again that could be since I'm a Yankee. One thing I have learned from living in many different areas is that preconceived ideas are usually wrong.

[CO Liberal]

105. "preconceived ideas are usually wrong"

Back in the '70s, I thought people in Colorado spent all day sitting under pine trees, drinking Coors Beer, and singing John Denver songs. Boy, was I wrong!!!!!

:-)

[demsrule4life]

107. My wife and I saw the movie Midnight Express

before we went to Turkey for two years. Talking about getting some ideas. The Turks are some of the friendliest, hard working, give you the shirt off their back people around.

[Columbia]

122. Sounds like my experience with Iraqis

[MrBenchley]

94. Hmmmmm......

Sounds like somebody wants to deny facts when they see them....

[alwynsw]

86. You are correct.

It's noted in Sherman's journals. He observed it when his troops were on I-285 during their march to the sea.

RIP Lewis

[iverglas]

114. things that apparently make some people go "hmm..." once a month

... like bloody clockwork?

Maybe it's a guy thing ...

Mandatory gun ownership works in preventing crime (or so some headline apparently said).

Charming little Kennesaw.

I shan't bother to read any of this month's brouhaha. I'd just like to quote myself from that other thread (post 14 -- to which - hmmmmmmmmmmm - no one replied):

I can think of some other numbers you might want to be crunching.

For example (apparently Kennesaw is in Cobb County) ...

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/saipe/estimate/cty/cty13067.htm
(you'll have to ask google to find a cached version for that url; it wasn't good)

Model-Based Income and Poverty Estimates for Cobb County, Georgia in 1997

Median household income - $52,924

My my. Relatively prosperous little place, is it? Looks that way, from what I can tell from here:

http://www.census.gov/housing/saipe/estmod00/est00_GA.dat

Maybe not too many unemployed riffraff in residence in Kennesaw, lying in wait to hold up or burglarize or kill the good burghers of this little burg?

Now, it seems that Kennesaw is not the wealthiest bit of Cobb County, but still ...

http://www.kennesaw.ga.us/Demographics_Income.aspx

Per capita income in Kennesaw has usually been a little higher than Georgia's average except for the late 1970's to the mid 1980's. Probable reasons for the resurgence of Kennesaw's per capita income in the mid-1980's include its growing function as a bedroom community to Fulton County, which has the highest wages in the region, and job growth in Cobb extending all the way up to the Kennesaw area. When Town Center Mall opened in 1986 the area became a job center in its own right.

Since 1969 Kennesaw's median household income has been even higher than the per capita income in comparison to Georgia. The higher household income can in part be attributed to higher per capita incomes, but also significant is the larger household size and higher labor force participation rates for Kennesaw. The combined factors provide for more people in a house with more of them in the work force. Both of Kennesaw's income measures have traditionally been lower than Cobb County's, though due to Kennesaw's larger household size, household incomes have been closer to Cobb's level than the per capita income measure. The 2000 Census will more than likely show Kennesaw's income measures will be closer to Cobb County's than ever, though Kennesaw has quite a way to go to catch up. While the number of households in Kennesaw and Cobb making under $30,000 is about the same, 33% to 32% respectively, 28% of Cobb's households make over $60,000 compared to 16% of Kennesaw's.

All in all, a community with higher-than-average per capita and household incomes, a higher proportion of families (more people per household = fewer young single people) ... yeah, that's the kind of place I'd be expecting to see a murder a minute.

Cripes, again.

I really do hope that no one is asking me to conclude, from a few years of life in what appears to be a rich little bedroom community <I would add -- and a comparison of crime statistics in that community between a time when its economy was depressed as compared to its usual situation and a time when it it was prosperous>, and with no information about actual rates of firearm ownership to boot, that a law telling everybody to buy a gun will make all our cities and towns crime-free in short order.

Nobody's really asking me to conclude that, right?

.

[MrBenchley]

117. Hmmmmm.....

Googling "Cobb County" and "gun" this came up....

"Take your guns to town, son: Before going to the skateboard show, I actually did take a highway to the danger zone: I-75 to Marietta, where I attended the Eastman Gun Show at the Cobb County Civic Center. To get in, I had to pass the strangest security checkpoint of my life. Weapons and ammo are allowed in, as long as they aren't touching, but getting my camera in was a mini-chore. I had to convince the show's namesake, Matt Eastman, that I wasn't gonna write something anti-gun.
In addition to guns, there were tables offering targets (bin Laden, Saddam, Barney), literature (sample title: Sniper: Training & Employment), bling-bling (gold chains and Rolexes) and genuine Adolf Hitler postcards (to send Arnold a congratulatory note). Judging from the yellow tint and the German writing, they were from the '30s or '40s. They depicted Hitler in both heroic and casual poses (such as the one where he's sitting under a tree and laughing). I keep imagining a German woman going to her mailbox in 1939 and finding a Hitler postcard with: "The weather's awesome. Blitzkreiged Poland yesterday. My love to the kids. Hugs, Helmut." "

http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2003-10-09/scene.html

And this....

"“The north Cobb County city that has long been a battleground in the culture wars fired another shot Monday after the council unanimously approved a resolution to ‘urge all American citizens to proclaim to every level of government ... its responsibility to publicly recognize God as the foundation of our national heritage ...’”
And before you assume this is merely a stand of principle, consider the resolution’s timing and primary backer. The resolution passed the night before election day, and Mayor Leonard Church, who is coincidentally up for re-election today, says “I’m the one that started the proclamation, and have heard nothing but positive support.”
Kennesaw businessman Peter Norwood Popham begs to differ: “This is nothing more than a political ploy to gather votes for floundering re-election campaign ... All of us without question love our God and many love our guns, but these are not the issues in city elections.” "

http://www.photodude.com/weblog/2003/november/04_got_guns_got_god.shtml

"Democrats immediately pounced on Bush's statements, saying he was trying to obscure his right-wing record on gun control. They noted that Bush opposes mandatory child safety locks on guns, and had signed legislation allowing most citizens to carry concealed weapons as well as legislation that preempted the ability of cities in Texas to file lawsuits against the gun industry. They also repeated criticism Bush received from opponents in Texas this year that he did little to push a bill in the legislature that would have mandated background checks at gun shows.
Georgia GOP chairman Chuck Clay said many Republican voters, particularly those in suburban areas such as wealthy Cobb County in the Atlanta area – where Bush visited today – support moderate gun control measures. "There's no Republican monolith on gun control," he said."

(D'ya suppose that's why these yokels don't enforce that law?)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/bush082899.htm

You might also recall Cobb County "distinguished itself" during the Atlanta Olympics thusly....

"Washington, D.C. -- To the relief and gratification of gay and lesbian people everywhere, the Olympic torch will not pass through Cobb County, Georgia, announced the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games (ACOG).
ACOG stunned the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender (g/l/b/t) community when last July it announced the Torch Relay would pass through Cobb County, which in 1993 passed a resolution condemning the "gay lifestyle" as incompatible with the community's standards. County officials have refused to rescind the measure despite mounting opposition against it.
The announcement last year that the torch would pass through Cobb County sent gay activists reeling. Only a year had passed since ACOG finally agreed, after an intense and protracted battle with Olympics Out of Cobb Coalition (OCC), a group of g/l/b/t activists, and NGLTF, to move the preliminary competition volleyball games from Cobb County. OCC quickly regrouped and began its campaign once again to prevent an official Olympic event from occurring in a county that officially condemns gay people. "

http://www.oasismag.com/Issues/9605/news9605-main7.html

You know, I can't help but go "hmmmmmm" when I think about who might consider this national disgrace an example of good government.

[iverglas]

123. different strokes

... Cobb County, which in 1993 passed a resolution condemning the "gay lifestyle" as incompatible with the community's standards. County officials have refused to rescind the measure despite mounting opposition against it.

Durn, that discrimination stuff is nasty, isn't it?

Several years ago, the then-mayor of my old home town -- London, Ontario, whitest-bread place in Canada -- refused to issue an official proclamation of Gay Pride Day. She got hauled in front of a human rights tribunal and severely chastised.

Oh, what fun -- the first thing that google presents is on the REALwomen of Canada site. You can imagine.

http://www.realwomenca.com/newsletter/1997_Nov_Dec/article_6.html

MAYOR OF LONDON REFUSES TO BOW
TO HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION

Mayor Diane Haskett of London, Ontario, refused to declare a Gay Pride Day in her city in 1995. A local homosexual association laid the usual complaint against her with the Ontario Human Rights Commission Tribunal, which found her, as usual, guilty of discrimination against homosexuals. It ordered the City of London to pay $10,000 plus interest (the maximum) to the local Homophile Association, as well as proclaim a Gay Pride Day if requested in future. The city was also ordered to issue a statement of recognition to the homosexual, lesbian and bisexual committees that they are an integral part of the city, and city officials were required to meet with the Homophile Association to promote good relations.

... However, in this case, something unusual occurred. Mayor Diane Haskett refused to bow to the Human Rights Tribunal decision. A devout Christian and a lawyer, Mrs. Haskett placed a paid ad in the London Free Press on October 22, 1997, in which she stated that she believed this Human Rights case was unfairly decided and wrong in fact and law. She stated the Commission's decision takes away fundamental freedoms that are meant to be protected by our constitution. She went on to assert her right as a Canadian to freedom of expression ...

She was re-elected. London might as well be in Alberta. The current mayor, whom I don't know, was one of the five finalists last week in Rick Mercer's (of "Talking to Americans" fame) "craziest mayor in Canada" contest. (Winnipeg won.)

Here's a good one: http://www.gazette.uwo.ca/1998/October/16/News5.htm

The City of London came within inches last week of issuing a proclamation for a European Heritage Week linked to Nazi sympathizers.

After approving a request from the European Heritage Committee for the week of Oct. 14-20, following normal application procedures earlier this month, the issue of racism was brought to light by the Canadian Jewish Congress last Thursday morning. City Hall then took a day and a half before an emergency meeting of council was called for late Friday night where the proclamation was rescinded by all 13 attending councillors.

... "This one came in with wording that was inoffensive," she said. She added a rejection can only be made under current regulations for inflammatory, politically insensitive, provoking or scatological reasons.

... The City of London recently changed its policy for proclamations after Mayor Diane Haskett was ruled by the Ontario Human Rights Commission to have violated the rights of homosexuals by dismissing a request for a Gay Pride Day. Power is now in the hands of the city clerk and not the mayor's office.

The city council obviously thought it wasn't a good idea to leave the lunatic in charge of the asylum.

It's common practice in major Canadian cities for mayors and police chiefs to march in Gay Pride parades, these days.


Now let's get back to complaining about "discrimination" against firearms owners, eh?

.

[MrBenchley]

125. I'd much rather discuss "Negroes with guns"

since the words give some people some sort of obscure thrill....

And of course, it's an important topic, considering that we just celebrated Robert Williams Day...no, wait, that was Martin Luther King Day, wasn't it?

[davidinalameda]

129. locking

have a great weekend