Number 3 in the world for percent of murders by Guns! NUMBER 3!!!!

[KansasVoter]

65% of our murders are by guns. Third highest percent after Colombia and Guatemala. We of course have the HIGHEST rate among developed countries.

I guess if you want to kill someone, and you have guns easily accessible, then why not use one?

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence

[slackmaster]

1. How did that concealed carry class you signed up for in September go, KV?

We're chomping at the bit for your blow-by-blow account.

K&R - Let's move this to the top of the stack for all to see.

:kick:

[KansasVoter]

9. Delayed until spring!

[Hoopla Phil]

69. When in "spring"? Do you have a date?

[villager]

2. unrecc'd of course, by those steeped in NRA apologetics..

n/t

[KansasVoter]

7. How odd unreccing accurate stats!!

[villager]

10. accurate stats are even more outraging to them...

n/t

[lawodevolution]

61. garbage stats is what is in the OP. Who cares what percent of violent crime is commited by guns

If we didn't have guns, they'd use blades. The real stat of value is the total rate of violence and by now many people should be aware that I am posting a real stat here backed by real statistical method.

Living in a nation with low civilian gun possession rate results in a 5 times greater chance of being murdered (by any weapon)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=339915&mesg_id=339915

[kudzu22]

66. So are pointless stats

If we had only four murders in a whole year and three of them were by guns we'd have a 75% ratio. We'd be #1!

[SteveM]

27. Ask Kansas if he is a member of the NRA. nt

[pintobean]

3. Give it a rest

How many gun threads do we need in GD?

[KansasVoter]

8. As many as the DU rules allow. And maybe on-topic today!!

[pintobean]

46. See, they're not allowed in GD

But I suspect you knew that. Maybe you just wanted to keep the mods on their toes.

[SteveM]

30. Controllers post in GD because they get clobbered in the Gun Forum.

[spin]

48. Which ruins all the fun ...

In he Gungeon pro-RKBA posters look forward to good debate. We are armed with facts and logic not fear and emotion.

We are always glad to help inform people who favor draconain gun control but have little knowledge of firearms.

[leftstreet]

4. DU needs a Gun Forum n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

40. That's where this thread is not. N/T

[KansasVoter]

5. Delayed till spring.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cynatnite]

This is not about taking guns...

This is about making sure that crazy people, criminals, and kids can't get their hands on them.

I don't see how gun control=taking guns away in some people's eyes. :shrug:

[Kingofalldems]

19. It is

And that's what they scream.

[SteveM]

32. Ah, the old "they" argument. What do you "scream" in proposal? nt

[SteveM]

31. I have a different outlook...

If someone is "crazy," that person has to be adjudicated as mentally incompetent. Fifth Amendment protections for the mentally ill have been with us for less than 50 years. Clearly, criminals (usually felons) should not have guns, and that is the law, now. Kids can have them in accordance with the various laws (I owned a shotgun and pistol by age 13, and used several types of arms before that age). The key here is sound instruction and parental supervision.

If you have any proposals, please present them.

[TheWraith]

50. Restricting the ability to own guns is an attempt to prevent people from having them.

Crazy people, criminals, and kids are already banned from buying, owning, and in the case of crazy people or criminals, even touching, a firearm. So are you going to make that double extra illegal, or are you going to make it harder for other people to buy or own guns?

[DrDan]

11. not only that - we are a major contributor toward gun violence in Mexico

over 60,000 guns purchased in the U.S. (due to ease of purchase) and taken to Mexico to fuel the drug war.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/12/AR2010121202663.html

[KansasVoter]

14. Thanks for that!

[SteveM]

33. One prohibition up against another prohibition. 2X the failure. nt

[X_Digger]

39. Misquote becomes gospel! Amazing..

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/mexican_president_challenges_c.html

Just to give you an idea, we have seized 75,000 guns and assault weapons in Mexico in the last three years. And more than 80 percent of those we have been able to trace came from the United States — from the United States.

Now, what's 80% of 75,000? Why, it's 60,000!

Notice that's not what Calderon said, however.

[GreenStormCloud]

41. The major contributor is China.

That's where they get their genuine AK-47s.

[DrDan]

44. link

[outerSanctum]

12. Ah shit.... We're team USA -

we should be NUMBER 1!

USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!USA!

[KansasVoter]

13. The NRA is working on it!

[Doctor_J]

15. We make up for it by being 37th in health care

You can't be at the top in everything!

[KansasVoter]

16. Perfect!!!

[Heidi]

17. It's the wanting to kill someone that's a problem.

The accessibility of firearms can be a tool for realizing that aim.

I'm a US citizen living in a country with easy access to firearms (we have two handguns in our home, both registered, neither once fired since purchase more than 20 years ago) but neither my husband nor I have ever ever wanted to kill anyone. Nor have we ever felt we'd need to use these two like-new firearms to defend ourselves, our cat, or an ideal. We are not inundated daily with hate-filled screeds or fear mongering. We also have easy access to affordable mental health care.

[KansasVoter]

18. The more guns available, including in your home, means more are stolen and resold to bad people!

[Heidi]

20. "Oh, horseshit."

Not to you, but to that argument.

Theft is another symptom of institutionalized desperation, just like wanting to kill people.

[KansasVoter]

23. The more guns sold means the more available for people who want to use them.....

But I 100% agree that people want to use them because this society is giving them a reason.
But less guns available mean less opportunity to use one if you want to.

[Glassunion]

37. What reasons?

"But I 100% agree that people want to use them because this society is giving them a reason."

What reasons is society giving them? I think if we can find a solution to that, we can all but eliminate our murder rates regardless of the implements used.

[SteveM]

35. That's why this is in GD. He can parrot refuted arguments when not in Guns Forum.

[slackmaster]

24. Yes, because guns behave exactly the same way as gas molecules

They distribute themselves randomly so as to occupy all available space in equal concentration.

[DrDan]

38. people die daily via guns without someone wanting them dead

[GreenStormCloud]

42. Only one or two die daily from gun accidents.

Far more than that die from many other types of accidents.

[DrDan]

43. one or two too many

[GreenStormCloud]

53. If you were really concerned about the death rate you would be concerned...

...about those things that kill more people.

[DrDan]

54. wrong - of course

concern should come from things we can do something about

and today that should be guns

[kudzu22]

67. Not even close

How about 100 per day for auto accidents?

[Xicano]

21. From your link we're NUMBER 9 per capita

And look at the countries with more stringent gun laws worse off than us on that list. Ooops these numbers don't support your argument.

Like I said before its not the guns which are the problem, its several other things. Our culture both glamorizes violence, glamorizes the cult-of-self while at the same time institutes policy which creates a lot of have-not's, and, alienates those who don't fit a certain narrow ideal mold.

America's problem isn't guns. America's problem is its obsession with self image, sometimes by any means necessary.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TygrBright]

22. Dang, we gotta try harder!

Do I really need the :sarcasm: thingie?

Probably.

wearily,
Bright

[KansasVoter]

26. You should not, but I agree you do most the time!

[Taitertots]

28. For that gem you get the epic fail award

65% of our murders are by guns. Our murder rate with firearms is under 3 per 100,000 or 0.003%. That puts the US at ninth according to your biased chart. A quick peak at the source data shows that the US is at most the 11th for intentional murders with firearms per 100,000 people.

Where are the other 50+ countries that your chart omitted?
Why does your chart contain justifiable homicides?

[KansasVoter]

36. A epic fail award on this forum is an honor.......

So you are happy being 9th? LOL.....that says it all!

[Taitertots]

45. Good to know you embrace ignorance and statements known to be false

Where are the other countries on the list you used? We are not 9th per 100,000. We are at least 11th, probably much lower. According to YOUR data.

So you are happy making meaningless statements, straw men, and known errors just because it supports your ideological bias.....That says it all!

[KansasVoter]

51. So how are we doing in the list of major industrialized countries? Maybe 1st? LOL.

[Taitertots]

52. Another biased cherry picked list I presume

Why don't we compare them to every other country instead of cherry picking and making your results meaningless?

I'm the richest person in America...When you list only the people who live in my house because they are similar.

[KansasVoter]

55. So, out of the modernized countries, how are we doing. Post your stats!!! I will be waiting!

[friendly_iconoclast]

57. There are several- you're not the first to try this particular flim-flam

Don't flatter yourself. What I said in the highlighted bit at the end still applies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=340603#340654

especially the part from post #88 and down:

X_Digger (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-24-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #106
107. So it's tautalogical balderdash, eh?
A pre-requisite of being 'industrialized' is having less gun crime. So no Russia, no Poland, no Bulgaria, no Balkan republics (even thought they're part of the European Union)..

friendly_iconoclast (1000+ posts) Fri Sep-24-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. I understand very well what 'industrialized' means- and it's not what you claim it means

There is no 'special' definition of "industrialized" that only applies when talking about guns and crime.

Otherwise, I could have mentioned Russia- and Brazil, for that matter. They export cars, (ahem) handguns, and some rather

nifty jet airliners. Seems pretty industrialized to me. Google "Embraer" for more information.


Both of these industrialized countries (along with Mexico and several others mentioned by others here) have higher murder

rates than the USA.


They don't lose their industrialized status simply because they're inconvenient to your arguments.

[KansasVoter]

58. So no stats just bullshit. Thanks!

[friendly_iconoclast]

63. I should have found a table of stats and simply lied about it. That's already worked on this thread.

Why shouldn't I do it? Oh yeah, faith-promoting rumors aren't my speed....

[Taitertots]

60. Why are you insisting on using biased, meaningless data?

The data YOU supplied clearly shows that the US isn't even in the top ten for firearms murders per 100,000. No need to wait at all, follow the Wikipedia link to the UN crime data .PDF and it is right there.

[friendly_iconoclast]

64. For some, if reality interferes with faith, it gets rejected n/t

[bossy22]

29. more importantly

we are #17 in total homicide rate- really the only statistic that matters. So we are no where near as bad as you incinuate

is it really better that a person is knifed to death than shot to death?

[KansasVoter]

34. Want someone trying to kill you with a knife or a gun? LOL

[oneshooter]

49. With a gun a untrained person could miss.

If you are close enough to use a knife, even a untrained person will hit you. Possibly multiple times.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[one-eyed fat man]

56. Do you understand why?

When deployed for riot control, military units generally fix bayonets?



Do a quick survey, ask those you know, would they rather be run through with a bayonet or shot?

To a man, they will decline both, but for whatever reason most folks will reluctantly admit the image being spitted on the point of 16 inches of cold steel bothers them more. That is one reason why there was a production run of M1917 bayonets, like the one on this Model 97 shotgun, in 1969. The Army and the National Guard having a spate of riot control missions at the time.



A knife is a first strike weapon in confrontation. If they miss, it becomes defensive weapon in a fight. A slit throat is normally a blitz attack from the rear. Arms get in the way in a frontal attack. It is a deliberate attempt to kill fast. It is not necessarily the most efficient attack from behind, but few murderers have the benefit of advanced military training. With a knife attack, the attacker will not show the knife until he is too close and too fast to counter.

[bossy22]

59. depends

if the person is far away a knife, if he is close up and within arms distance- a gun.

but it still doesnt matter- those stats count dead- so someone who is shot dead and someone who is stabbed to death are both DEAD. Explain to me why the stabbing victim had it better of?

[friendly_iconoclast]

65. Does it matter? Are you deader with a gun?

[ileus]

47. year 2000....Mexico ring a bell? 2011 hello?

[Euromutt]

62. I think that statistic isn't as significant as you think it is

To compare, there was some point in the early 1990s, IIRC, when Switzerland had the highest percentage of homicides committed using a firearm in Europe. However, at the same time, Switzerland also had one of the lowest homicide rates in Europe, possibly the lowest.

The thing is that statistics on what percentages of homicides are committed by what means in no way reflect the number of homicides that occur. Hypothetically, if you have two countries with identically sized populations, and in a given year country A had ten homicides, all by firearm, and in country B, you had a hundred homicides, of which 20 were by firearm, country A would have the higher percentage of murders committed by firearm (100% vs. 20%), even though twice as many murders by firearm occurred in country B as did in country A (20 vs. 10).

[DissedByBush]

68. Yet we're number 24 in murder rate

Do you care about guns, or about people dying?