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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 11:28 PM
Original message
For imediate dissemination: NFA:Trusts



From the Federal Register Online via GPO Access


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DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives



Agency Information Collection Activities: Proposed Collection;
Comments Requested

ACTION: 60-Day Notice of Information Collection Under Review: Letter
Requesting Supporting Documents Identifying a Legal Entity.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Department of Justice (DOJ), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives (ATF), will be submitting the following
information collection request to the Office of Management and Budget
(OMB) for review and approval in accordance with the Paperwork
Reduction Act of 1995. This notice requests comments from the public
and affected agencies concerning the proposed information collection.
Comments are encouraged and will be accepted on or before February 14,
2011. This process is conducted in accordance with 5 CFR 1320.10.

If you have comments especially on the estimated public burden or
associated response time, suggestions, or need a copy of the proposed
information collection instrument with instructions or additional
information, please contact Gary Schaible, Gary.Schiable@atf.gov
National Firearms Act Branch, 99 New York Avenue, NE., Washington, DC
20226 Fax (202) 648-9601.

Written comments and suggestions from the public and affected
agencies concerning the proposed information collection are encouraged.
Your comments should address one or more of the following four points:

--Evaluate whether the proposed collection of information is necessary
for the proper performance of the functions of the agency's including
whether the information will have practical utility;
--Evaluate the accuracy of the agency's estimate of the burden of the
proposed collection of information, including the validity of the
methodology and assumptions used;
--Enhance the quality, utility, and clarity of the information to be
collected; and
--Minimize the burden of the collection of information on those who are
to respond, including through the use of appropriate automated,
electronic, mechanical, or other technological collection techniques or
other forms of information technology, e.g., permitting electronic
submission of responses.

Summary of Collection:

(1) Type of Information Collection: New.

(2) Title of the Form/Collection: Letter Requesting Supporting
Documents Identifying a Legal Entity.

(3) Agency form number, if any, and the applicable component of the
Department of Justice sponsoring the collection: Form Number: None.
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

(4) Affected public who will be asked or required to respond:

Primary: Business or other for-profit.

Other: None.

Need for Collection: The collection of information will be used to
determine the lawful existence and validity of a legal entity before
ATF approves the transfer of an NFA firearm to that entity.

(5) An estimate of the total number of respondents and the amount
of time estimated for an average respondent to respond: It is estimated
that 5,000 respondents will spend approximately 30 minutes to compile
documentation requested by the letter.

(6) An estimate of the total public burden (in hours) associated
with the collection: There are an estimated 5,000 annual total burden
hours associated with this collection.

If additional information is required contact: Lynn Murray,
Department Clearance Officer, Policy and Planning Staff, Justice
Management Division, Department of Justice, 2 Constitution Square, Room
2E-502, 145 N Street, NE., Washington, DC 20530.

Dated: December 9, 2010.
Lynn Murray,
Department Clearance Officer, PRA, U.S. Department of Justice.

BILLING CODE 4410-FY-P
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glinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't get it. Can you explain what this is?
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. Pre-News , we has it
Smells like a salvo on trusts and therefore "some" transferables . Or somethin' like that . You have to wait and see now .

Until then .....This dude is so cool .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMFPe-DwULM
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Bold Lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 11:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. For those of us not versed in legaleze?
Is this saying that they are going to require LESS paperwork be submitted with a NFA Trust transfer?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
3. They are messing with NFA regs, I would assume not to make things easier..
Need for Collection: The collection of information will be used to
determine the lawful existence and validity of a legal entity before
ATF approves the transfer of an NFA firearm to that entity.

"valid" being a key term.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. This is nothing more than a financial institution would require to open an account.
Affects artificial persons.

Shouldn't be an issue at all if the transferee is a natural person (citizen or legally in the country).

The paranoia about our precious guns reveals the depth of our depravity.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-17-10 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Here all you need is a tax id and a signature. And boy the blood is running free
from $20,000 dollar NFA weapons..
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. But it is precisely because the affect on natural persons.
NFA trusts came into use for a few reasons, the two major ones have to do with the disadvantages of the process for a natural person.

First and foremost, it is the simplest way to deal with the CLEO sign-off requirement. A natural person wishing to register and NFA firearm must obtain the signature of the Chief Law Enforcement Officer in the district which he resides. Normally, this is considered to be the Chief of Police of for a city dweller or the county Sheriff. The CLEO's discretion is unfettered and absolute. He does not have to explain or justify why he declines to sign. It can be a matter of policy; he doesn't sign them for anyone. He can sign them only for campaign contributors above a certain level. He can can deny because you do not meet certain standards of ethnic, religious or racial purity. The validity or invalidity of the reason has no bearing; he is under no obligation to even explain to the applicant or anyone else why he won't sign. Trusts and corporations are not required to obtain the Sheriff's "Mother, May I...."

The second advantage to a trust is that it can name trustees who are authorized access to the NFA firearm. This is advantageous to someone who wished allow his spouse or adult children access. It might even simplify storage, in that your spouse can now have the combination to the gun safe.

The government has argued that house-mates are constructive(ly) possess(ing) the gun, and charged the registered owner as criminally aiding this illegal possession. United States v. Huet

How many NFA owners had considered that when they left for work in the morning that leaving the machine gun at home could be a crime. Regardless, I certainly suspect that the change is simply another attempt to discourage citizens with interminable layers of bureaucratic bullshit from exercising their rights.

One of the most egregious uses of using a blizzard of paperwork to thwart the law deals with road taxes on aviation fuel. In this state, aviation fuel is nominally exempt from road taxes, however, retailers must collect, and more importantly, pay the State 22.5 cents a gallon road tax. (Try landing on the highway and see what that gets you!) Since aviation fuel is exempt, the aircraft owner may file for a refund. The application must be made within 30 days, provide triplicate copies of receipts, and 10% the refund is withheld as fee for processing the return.

Fleet operators and businesses simply add another task to the bean counters. The guy who might use 50 gallons of fuel in a Cessna is just as likely to decide 2 hours of filling paperwork is not worth 10 bucks, which is precisely the desired effect!

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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. You are very knowledgeable and write so well, it is a joy to read your posts!
I support any effort to keep machine guns out of the hands of the public.

Based on your analysis of the CLEO sign-off and designated authorized possessor loopholes, I can see that a comprehensive overhaul of the regulation is needed to plug those loopholes.

There is no justification for discriminating against natural persons in favor of artificial ones.

It should be made equally difficult and/or impossible for both.

Going to war with the government is what machine guns are for.

In my opinion, that is undemocratic and ought to be off the table.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Sometimes you have to go to war for them
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Been there, done that. It was called the Civil War. Never again.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #10
12.  Damn but I wondered how old you were! Sounds like the Alzheimer's is kicking in. n/t
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-10 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. There is a large difference between fighting a war against your government
And fighting many many smaller battles -FOR- them . The smarter kids know what I am talking about . Are you one of the smarter kids ?

Your challenge , should you accept it ,is to illustrate a single example of the citizens fighting a battle -for- The State , so that The State doesn't have to . Just one is all you need , and there are a few million examples a year . Some of them are posted on this very board EVERY DAY . Simply cut and paste if you like . Whether you choose to accept this Herculean task or not , I would like to invite other posters to list one .
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-10 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. So, you seem to indicate that you would accept any governmental authority...
or abuse thereof, without fighting back?

Or is it that you simply plan to be at/near the top of the social/political strata, and thus immune to the abuses?
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Legal machine guns are not a problem
Edited on Sat Dec-18-10 02:03 PM by one-eyed fat man
With the passage of the Hughes amendment in 1986 the number of legally transferable machine guns was frozen. As a result they command astronomical prices for the collectors who want one. These guns don't get shot a lot and there is a lot of incentive to be careful with them. Most of them are historical, long since out of production and there is a finite number of spare parts around to keep them maintained.

When it comes to a damaged receiver, that is a real kettle of fish. The receiver is the component the ATF considers the "firearm", the chunk with the serial number on it. The law allows the manufacturer to build a replacement to fix a gun that is already registered and recycle the serial number.....

But, and it's a heavy but, many if not most of the guns in the registry are long out of production, their manufacturers unable or unwilling to support so old an item, or in some cases the manufacturer is no longer in existence.

So any machinations by the ATF to do anything about the NFA registry except quit lying about it are not worth the effort. While there have been plenty of instances of the use of illegally possessed and illegal machine guns since the NFA was passed there has been only one case where an NFA firearm was used in a crime and that was by a dirty cop against a witness.

NFA firearms are for most a hobby. Loud and expensive, like drag racing, or trashy women. Besides, if you were really a subversive you'd likely as soon as not have your name and fingerprints already stored on a gazillion government hard drives!

As far as arming the revolution, you really need to understand human nature. You take one big-titted Resistance fighter and let her get close to a horny government jack-booted thug. Let nature take its course. She sticks an icepick between the 5th and 6th ribs, rides out the dying quiver and acquires the latest in government issue technology, in a caliber will be easy to replenish on the battlefield. Pass around and repeat.

Or like rebel factions since time immemorial, strike an alliance with those outside the country who see benefit in undermining the established government. With money from sympathizers in the United States the IRA acquired the first commercial Thompson submachineguns produced. That Cornelius Ryan, the principal investor in Auto-Ordnance had strong (Irish)Republican ties did not hurt.

Serial number analysis IRA Thompsons

Your fears of NFA firearms fueling the revolution are misplaced. If it comes to that, it will be like the last time. A lot of soldiers in the Army will fight with their conscience. Those that choose like Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson did 150 years ago will bring their rifles, tanks, artillery, attack helicopters, and fighter jets with them.

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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-10 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. "Going to war with the government is what machine guns are for."
And the government doesn't mind as long as you have your tax stamp.

Uh-huh.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-18-10 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. How familiar are you with the Title 2 provisions of the National Firearms Act
and the regulations on trusts for Title 2 items?
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-10 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. I am glad to see you differentiate people that are "legally" and "illegally" in the country.
Me, I prefer to think that free people should be free to cross the border of a "free country" freely, no?
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-19-10 06:23 AM
Response to Original message
15. "Paperwork reduction act"
...*SNERK* yeah, that'll work.
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