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Still a Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 12:14 PM
Original message
Gun Control Poll
I can't post an actual poll, but thought I'd survey the forum.

In general, do you believe gun control laws should be more strict, less strict, or remain about what they are now?
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
1. Enforce what we have should be enough & nationalize them
Including:
- CCW on request
- No AWB (useless)
- Complete reciprocity
- Removal of laws that violate Heller etc like DC and Chicago
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MindandSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
2. More strict. Too many innocent kids die.
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bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. then we should also ban private swimming pools
since more kids die in those than die by gun fire- unless you count the 18-24 range as kids (which they arent).
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russ1943 Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Source?
What is your source, and the actual number of kids (0 17) who have died in private swimming pools?
According to WISQARS http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe
there were 952 0-17 yr olds who drowned in 2007. That 952 would include bathtubs, buckets, toilets, natural bodies of water, (lakes, rivers etc.), boating, public and private pools.

The number of kids 0-17 who die from being shot with firearms according to WISQARS http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe was 1,520 in 2007 and has averaged 1,500 per year for the years 1999 2007.

You must know how many of each or you wouldn't know which is more.
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MindandSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thank you for your factual answer to that thoughtless (and stupid) comment!
You are absolutely right.

And while we cannot keep children from being attracted to water, as water is a "natural element" in our environment. . .we could certainly limit their access to firearms if we put more regulation on the ownership of firearms.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. You cannot keep children from being attracted to water,
But you can teach them how to swim .

What you cannot do is make a law forcing other people to teach their own spawn how to swim .
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Limit commercial production to three per year. Limit bullet production to seven.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Better ban lead weights. Thats like 4 minutes of work on a dillon 1050
maybe 30 seconds of work if you are all set up and all.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Still unable to cope with technology?
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 01:38 PM by one-eyed fat man


Using techniques employed 200 years ago the Park Service at Mammoth Cave was able to produce a pound of saltpeter from 200 pounds of cave dirt. Simply because YOU lack imagination or are unable to build something does not meant it's not possible to evade the law.

Dental floss and toothpaste

Patience and resourcefulness allowed a prisoner to cut through the bars on his cell and stab to death another prisoner as he was being escorted by guards to the shower.

You should have all kinds of points for that guy! What a wild savage the killer must have been. Nothing convenient or expeditious about this crime. Certainly nothing as simple as pulling a trigger. It took much greater guile and determination.

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Please explain exactly what you mean ...
Are you saying that a gun manufacturer should only make three guns a year and an ammo company should make only seven bullets a year?

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Francis Marion Donating Member (188 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
22. And limit publication to three books per year. Seven words per page.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. Once again your anti union agenda comes to the forefront
Edited on Sun Dec-12-10 02:08 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
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ColesCountyDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. 'Gun control' was one of those "touchdown play-- on paper" ideas...
It sounded just GREAT but, for the most part, it's failed miserably. I think they should be allowed to die a merciful death....
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. Less to same..
Remove some of the classist and racist (in practice if not intent) restrictions that keep those most in need of self-defense from being able to exercise it.

Step up enforcement of the existing laws.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 03:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. Less
In Texas I'd like open carry of handguns and many states need to have their laws gutted out.

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Focus future gun control on criminals rather than honest people ...
We have plenty of good laws to limit the sale of firearms to honest people who are responsible and not insane. We might try to extend the NICS background check to ALL private firearm sales in this country (not just at gun shows). This might end up reducing some crime but not a truly significant amount. Honest people selling firearms to other honest citizens is not a problem.

All too often we allow criminals who are caught carrying firearms illegally off with a plea bargain or a light slap on the wrist. Eventually many of these individuals end up shooting or killing someone with their weapons and if we are lucky enough to catch them, we finally make an effort to treat them as serious dangers to our community.

Criminal gangs fighting over turf is also a major problem in our society. In my opinion, violent drug gangs are terrorist organizations. If not curbed, eventually we will face gang problems like Mexico.

Of course, many other aspects of violent crime have to be addressed. First, we should admit that our "War on Drugs" is a total failure and legalize many commonly used drugs, especially marijuana. Second we have to admit that we are failing to educate our children. Modern jobs that pay well require an education. People without a good education and little chance of living a worthwhile life are more likely to commit crime. Perhaps we need to find out why other countries are more successful in educating their students and adopt their successes rather than continue to pump money into a system that has obviously failed.

For many years we have targeted people who are not criminals and tried to restrict or limit their right or own firearms. It should not be surprising that this approach has not eliminated the problem of violent firearm misuse in our society. Admittedly, honest people will sometimes commit crime in a moment of passion or accidentally shoot another person but criminals are far more likely to misuse firearms. Also while a high percentage of the number of people who die each year because of firearms are suicides, suicide can be accomplished by many different means. If there were no firearms available, people would still commit suicide.

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MindandSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Too many people with no criminal records own a gun which is then
either stolen by a criminal
used by the "normal" gun owner to commit suicide or commit a crime of passion or despair
used for suicide
or accessed by children who have seen too many "glorifying" shows about guns and do not understand the full impact and power of a gun shot.

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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. There must be some tenuos connection
But I cant quite put my finger on it .
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MindandSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'm sorry, I'm not good at drawing pictures, and apparently that's what you need.
You said that the existing laws to keep guns out of criminal hands should firt be enforced.

I agree. . .however there are already laws about that. . .the fact is that most criminal do not acquire guns LEGALLY, but through stealing them from "honest" people.

Too many accidents happen to children because their parents own guns LEGALLY

too many suicides or "spur of the moment" gun shooting happen because gun owners get either in a very depressive state or in a rage.
Yes, I know, you will tell me that if someone really wants to commit suicide he/she will find a way! However, it is so much "faster" to pull a trigger when the gun is right there in your nightstand, than it is to PLAN to hang yourself, or collect enough pills to poison yourself, etc. . .

And, in many cases of "rage," if the person was armed with a baseball bat or a knife rather than a gun, there probably would be more chance that the victim survive.

I am against gun. I know this goes against the grain for most people in this country. But this IS the way I feel, and the statistics tend to lean in my favor on this.

Sorry, the drawing may still not be clear enough for you. . .but that's all I can do!
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Actually, the last time it was studied..
Edited on Sat Dec-11-10 07:57 PM by X_Digger
40% of guns used in crime come from illegal / black market, and 40% from 'friends/family' (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf ).

There is no indication that the largest source of guns used in crime is theft from 'honest people'.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/GUIC.PDF

"According to the 1991 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those inmates who possessed a handgun, 9% had acquired it through theft, and 28% had acquired it through an illegal market such as a drug dealer or fence. Of all inmates, 10% had stolen at least one gun, and 11% had sold or traded stolen guns."

re suicide, our rate is actually better than many countries with more stringent gun laws-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suici...

5- Japan
14- Finland
15- Belgium
17- Switzerland
18- France
21- Austria
27- New Zealand
35- Canada
37- Norway
39- Iceland
40- United States




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MindandSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. There are other statistics available more focused on "gun ownership" that give a different story!




"Homicide rates tend to be related to firearm ownership levels. Everything else being equal, a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms should occasion a drop in the homicide rate".

Evidence to the Cullen Inquiry 1996: Thomas Gabor, Professor of Criminology - University of Ottawa


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."

International Correlation between gun ownership and rates of homicide and suicide.' Professor Martin Killias, May 1993.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gun Deaths - International Comparisons
Gun deaths per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

Homicide Suicide Other (inc Accident)

USA (2001) 3.98 5.92 0.36
Italy (1997) 0.81 1.1 0.07
Switzerland (1998) 0.50 5.8 0.10
Canada (2002) 0.4 2.0 0.04
Finland (2003) 0.35 4.45 0.10
Australia (2001) 0.24 1.34 0.10
France (2001) 0.21 3.4 0.49
England/Wales (2002) 0.15 0.2 0.03
Scotland (2002) 0.06 0.2 0.02
Japan (2002) 0.02 0.04 0

Data taken from Cukier and Sidel (2006) The Global Gun Epidemic. Praeger Security International. Westport.

> See More Data


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Guns and Suicide

Data on suicide and firearms from other countries can be viewed as a warning to us in the UK of some of the effects of firearm possession. Most articles show that the storage of a firearm in the home predicts an increased rate of a violent death. The articles have been referenced so that those interested can obtain further information.


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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. In the small town I live in, almost every home has firearms ...
and yet the homicide rate is extremely low.

It's simplistic and foolish to say that more guns in more homes automatically equals more homicides or suicides. Many factors are involved in the equation.

Since Obama took office gun and ammo sales have skyrocketed, but the violent crime rate has decreased.


VIOLENT AND PROPERTY CRIME RATES DECLINED IN 2009, CONTINUING THE
TREND OBSERVED IN THE LAST TEN YEARS


WASHINGTON - The violent crime rate declined from 19.3 to 17.1 victimizations per 1,000 persons during 2009, the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) in the Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Department of Justice, announced today. This decline continued a longer-run decline from 51.2 victimizations per 1,000 persons in 1994 and brought violent crime rates to their lowest levels since 1973, the first year that BJS collected data from crime victims through its National Criminal Victimization Survey (NCVS).

The property crime rate declined during 2009 from 134.7 to 127.4 crimes per 1,000 households, primarily as a result of a decrease in theft. This decline continued a longer-term trend of declining rates from 553.6 crimes per 1,000 households in 1975.

In 2009, an estimated 4.3 million violent crimes (rapes or sexual assaults, robberies, aggravated assaults and simple assaults) occurred, as well as an estimated 15.6 million property crimes (burglaries, motor vehicle thefts and household thefts) and 133,000 personal thefts (picked pockets and snatched purses). These offenses included both crimes reported and unreported to police.

Violent and property crime rates in 2009 remain at the lowest levels recorded since 1973, the first year that such data were collected. The rate of every major violent and property crime measured by BJS fell between 2000 and 2009. The overall violent crime rate fell 39 percent and the property crime rate declined by 29 percent during the last 10 years.




source: http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2010/09/fbi_crime...


Violent Crime Declined As Gun Sales Climbed in 2009
Thursday, September 16, 2010

(CNSNews.com) - Violent crime continued to fall in 2009, even as gun sales reached an all-time high, according to statistics from the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). This is proof positive that gun prohibitionists have been consistently and undeniably wrong, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms said in a statement.

***snip***

According to the NICS figures, 14 million guns were sold in 2009, the biggest year since the system began recording data in 1998. The NICS figures are considered the most accurate measurement of gun sales because federal law requires that a NICS check be done prior to every firearm sale in America.

In fact, there were nearly 2 million more guns sold in the United States in 2009 than in 2008, the next best year for gun sales, when 12.7 million NICS checks were recorded.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/75359
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. Those conclusions aren't backed up by historical fact.
After the UK tightened down firearm ownership, "a reduction in the percentage of households owning firearms", their homicide rate went up.

http://reason.com/archives/2002/11/01/gun-controls-twis...


"The level of gun ownership world-wide is directly related to murder and suicide rates and specifically to the level of death by gunfire."

Then how do you explain that we have one of the highest firearm ownership rates, yet a perfectly average suicide rate, beating out countries that effectively ban civilian ownership (japan) and countries with some of the toughest firearm ownership laws?



It's very nice for professor so-and-so to say what should happen, but when it bumps up against reality, reality wins. Every time.

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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-11-10 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. There is no such thing as gun control, which is why

I refer to it as gun "control". The genie is out of the bottle for good, with over 3 million firearms in this country and no way of "controlling" any future increase. And of course gun "control" is not about saving lives for the controllers, it's about exerting authoritarian control.

Since there is no correlation between the number of firearms in the U.S. and gun violence, there is no argument for "control". On the flip side, gun "control" advocates Philip Cook & Jens Ludwig acknowledged high numbers of defensive gun uses, (NSPOF study) so it can no longer be argued that the only purpose for a firearm is to kill.

Further, statistics from Texas and Florida prove that concealed carry permit holders commit many times fewer gun-related crimes than members of the general population.

For all of those reasons, and many more, I vote make gun laws less restrictive. And get state-to-state reciprocity for CC permit holders.
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RSillsbee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-10 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
23. Less restrictive laws
Make America one shining, seamless oasis of constitutional carry from sea to shining sea.

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