Robbery suspects shot dead by N.C. Pizza Hut worker

[mvccd1000]

From The Virginion Pilot:

Investigators say the suspects ordered the two employees into a walk-in cooler, then started beating one of the men. The other employee pulled a handgun and opened fire.

Police say they found two handguns near the dead suspects.

No charges filed against the robbery and assault victims (aka, the shooters).

I don't know about North Carolina, but Arizona had two restaurant robberies about a decade ago where the minimum-wage clerks were herded into walk-in coolers and executed.

Interesting that some posters here would prefer that people like these employees simply be left defenseless in the face of whatever intentions the criminals have.

[WillParkinson]

1. Right...

"Interesting that some posters here would prefer that people like these employees simply be left defenseless in the face of whatever intentions the criminals have."

Because no one who has ever taken a gun to work has used it against other employees.

[jazzhound]

2. Right...

"Because no one who has ever taken a gun to work has used it against other employees".

As if disarming honorable citizens is going to make us all safe from the lunatics.

Same weak arguments, different day.

[WillParkinson]

4. No weaker than allowing people to carry guns at work

But you're entitled to your opinion.

We disagree and that's fine. :-)

[friendly_iconoclast]

3. Your hypothetical disgruntled pizzeria worker would probably use this:

A pizza knife, which is damn near a short sword. Strangely, many people who worry about angry workers with guns seldom worry about

them having easy access to one of these bad boys.

From a GIS search:




18" Commercial Pizza Knife.
Gives you a two handed grip on cutting a large pizza. Stainless steel 2½" curved blade gives you the cutting action you need to get through a thick pizza crust or wheel of cheese. Both main and helper handle are riveted to the blade


Handy for slicing a thick-crust margherita pie, or an annoying co-worker. Not so good as defense against a handgun.

[Tunkamerica]

5. these aren't quite the model that pizza hut uses

It's more of a two-handed half-circle. You kind of roll it to cut the pizza, it's quicker, very efficient. You can't stab someone with that. You could cut off their hand if they laid it down and you could give them a nasty slice prob. but it would be difficult. At least at the few pizza huts that I had friends at a few years ago.

[mvccd1000]

6. If I had to hazard a guess...

... and I have not seen data to back this up, but I would be willing to make a small wager that employees of restaurants or convenience stores who find themselves working alone or with only one other, after midnight, are probably more likely to face a robber than a murderous co-worker.

[SteveM]

11. So, what is your point?...

"Because no one who has ever taken a gun to work has used it against other employees."

Does this negate someone else's RKBA in their home? Does it negate someone else's right when on the street? Does it negate someone else's right when on the job?

Do you have any data comparing the number of times a gun was "used... against other employees" with the number of times when a gun was used against thugs and stick-up punks?

[WillParkinson]

27. Do you have data to suggest otherwise?

I don't either. My point is that I would not be comfortable having a coworker with a gun. Nowhere did I say anything about a home or on a street. I said at work. This is just my personal opinion. You're welcome to have another, I don't mind at all. If I found a coworker with a gun I would report it.

Now admittedly I work in a relatively safe environment (even though it's on 3rd shift). If I worked in the type of place they do my feelings might very well be different, I cannot say with 100% certainty.

[PavePusher]

22. Which incidence is more common?

Numbers, if you please...

[lawodevolution]

23. explain to me how a "no gun zone" stops someone from bringing a gun

please explain.

[WVRICK13]

7. Two Less

thugs in the world. Better know what you ask for before you try to take it. This is a sad commentary. Sad that we have citizens who would pair up and try to rob a business and sad that an employee felt the need to carry a gun to work.

[oneshooter]

8. Pizza Hut will now fire the worker. Compant policy, dead workers are cheaper than lawsuits. n/t

[SteveM]

12. Yep, happens with regularity. nt

[Bold Lib]

9. It's a shame that he'll lose his job now. Pizza Hut would rather have dead employees than

dead robbers. How very strange.

[spin]

20. If I worked for Pizza Hut in a dangerous area ...

I would carry concealed. I have a concealed weapons permit.

The chances are slim that anyone would know that I was packing heat as I pocket carry a S&W Model 642 Airweight .38 snubbie.



If I had to use and it Pizza Hut fired me, so be it. I would rather be an ex-employee and alive than an ex-employee six feet under.

[proteus_lives]

24. My mom carries one of those.

She loves it!

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I carried the Taurus version of that exact pistol when I worked for Domino's.

Never had to use it, and I'm glad. But you better believe I carried it. Every night.

[Glassunion]

10. Hmm...

Yes I disagree with their(Pizza Hut) policy on no firearms, but it is their building and they do get to set the rules.

I totally disagree with their policy on not allowing their drivers to carry. If they leave the firearm in their car(don't like it) while they are in a Pizza Hut property picking up the food for their route. However once on the road they are in their own car, out in public and Pizza Hut should not have a say at all if an employee can or cannot carry.

The occupational category for Pizza delivery drivers(according to US Bureau of Labor Statistics) are ranked 12th in the most dangerous jobs category. The Police are ranked at 10th. Here is some interesting data on those statistics ranked by most dangerous occupations / average wage / most common cause of death / fatality rate per 100k / actual fatalities...

No. 1: Fishers and related fishing workers / $13.00 hr / Transportation incidents / 111.8 / 38
No. 2: Logging workers / $13.00 hr / Contact with objects and equipment / 86.4 / 76
No. 3: Aircraft pilots and flight engineers / N/A / Transportation incidents / 70.7 / 87
No. 4: Structural iron and steel workers / $19.00 hr / Contact with objects and equipment / 45.5 / 40
No. 5: Farmers and ranchers / N/A / Transportation incidents / 39.5 / 293
No. 6: Electrical power-line installers and repairers / $22.00 hr / Exposure to harmful substances or environments / 29.1 / 30
No. 7: Driver/sales workers and truck drivers / $12.00 hr / Transportation incidents / 28.2 / 976
No. 9: Refuse and recyclable material collectors / $17.00 hr / Transportation incidents / 22.8 / 18
No. 10: Police and sheriff's patrol officers / N/A / Transportation incidents / 21.8 / 146
No. 11: Roofers / $16.00 hr / Falls / 21.4 / 79
No. 12: Taxi drivers and chauffeurs (Pizza delivery) / $12.00 hr / Assaults and violent acts / 21.3 / 50
No. 13: Construction laborers / $16.00 hr / Falls / 19.5 / 345
No. 14: Firefighters / N/A / Fires and explosions / 17.4 / 50
No. 15: Helpers, construction trades / $15.00 hr / Falls / 13.7 / 18
No. 16: Grounds maintenance workers / $14.00 hr / Falls / 12.0 / 160

Of all of the 16 most dangerous occupations there was only one category where violent crime was the leading cause of death. Pizza delivery drivers are in that category.

Two of my favorite quotes from Pizza Hut...
"Do you want your mail guy or delivery guy carrying a loaded gun when he comes to the door?"
"What if he's not happy with his tip?"
Patty Sullivan, a Pizza Hut spokeswoman.

I'm sure Patty spent some time and has a plethora of data to back up her assertion that her delivery drivers would snap when faced with a bad tip and kill one of her customers. Shows that she has a lot of faith in her employees. Personally, I have no issue if my pizza delivery person is carrying. It does not matter to me one bit.

What bothers me is that you have one of the most dangerous occupations in the nation and as a condition of employment you have to leave your rights at home. Personally, I would carry anyway.

It is a shame that this guy is going to get fired. This will be at least the third time Pizza Hut will fire an employee who defended themselves.
http://www.kcci.com/r/15926108/detail.html
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=24858

Remember Mrs. Sullivan, nothing bad ever happens to your employees...
http://www.theindychannel.com/news/23421093/detail.html
http://gregspages.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=340
http://www.chicagonewsreport.com/2010/08/uptown-man-attacked-and-injured-at-4426.html
http://www.omaha.com/article/20100914/NEWS97/709149898/1120
http://nebraskaradionetwork.com/2010/09/14/pizza-delivery-dangers-a-reminder-following-attack/
http://www.news4jax.com/news/2742092/detail.html
http://www.kmbc.com/r/21308975/detail.html
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article992799.ece?comments=legacy
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1998-01-27/news/1998027134_1_pizza-hut-bond-taneytown
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/08/20/pizza-delivery-man-attacked-in-east-des-moines/
http://www.klfy.com/Global/story.asp?S=12224640
http://www.raginpagin.com/hotpage/showthread.php3?t=31504
http://articles.latimes.com/1995-05-12/local/me-65423_1_pizza-delivery-driver
http://www.uptownupdate.com/2010/08/pizza-delivery-man-badly-hurt-on.html
http://www.jepara.net/2010/09/03/pizza-driver-slain/
http://www.wreg.com/wreg-pizza-delivery-murder-story,0,5110902.story
etc...

[SteveM]

13. Another pronouncement from the Land of What If. nt

[oneshooter]

15. Explain yourself. These are facts, people died and/or were injured. n/t

[SteveM]

16. The reference was to the quote provided...

"What if he's not happy with his tip?"

This is not much to base an argument on. Clearly, there are some fast-food employees who carry firearms, but I have yet to see anyone get shot over a bad tip.

[Bold Lib]

14. WOW! Thank you for such a GREAT post!!! n/t

[Glassunion]

17. I used to work in two jobs that were listed in a different report in prior years...

I forget who put out the report and I would love to link it. But it was a report on the occupations where you are more likely to be killed in a homicide.

I delivered pizza
and
I worked midnights in a convenience store

They were the number 2 and 5 on the list.

Remember to tip your pizza "dude" or "dudette" very well, they live on tips.

My hourly wage when I was driving pizza was $3.04 an hour.
Out of that wage I paid for my own gas and insurance and was not compensated for any miles driven for the company.
On an average night I would drive about 100 to 150 miles. I would spend about $12 a day in gas alone(4 hours of work before taxes).
I had to maintain my own vehicle.
Even though I drove 36,000 miles a year(for work), I was still more likely to be murdered by one of our customers than in a car accident.
I was never robbed. Three of my co-workers were not so lucky.

Again... Tip the shit out of your pizza drivers.

[proteus_lives]

18. Employee of the month.

Reminds of the end of Fast Times at Ridgmont High.

[Katya Mullethov]

19. Both convicted felons ...one on probation , and one awaiting trial

Gosh , I bet his probation officer finds this all so disconcerting .

[krispos42]

21. And I'll bet the shooter gets fired for bringing a gun to work.

"Yes, our policy was obviously wrong in this instance, but you're still fired. And we're billing you for cleaning up the blood."

[safeinOhio]

26. I don't see the problem as

a law abiding citizen having a legal handgun. Everyone is missing the real problem. Where did the 2 illegally owned handguns of the bad guys come from? When we start asking that question, the answer to gun violence will be obvious.

People like to use numbers and stats to push an agenda. Until we start looking at how and where the bad guys get their guns, the problem of gun violence will stick around. Of course we'll never stop some random shootings, but we can stem the flow of guns to those that are not legally allowed to possesses them.

[mvccd1000]

28. I don't think anyone would disagree with you...

... in stating that we need to stop the flow of guns to those that are not legally allowed to possess them.

How do you propose to do that without trampling on the rights of the other 200+ million people in the nation, though? That's where the "common sense solutions" become a little less clear.

[slackmaster]

29. The two bad guys with their illegally owned handguns came from the same place as everyone else

We're all God's children.

:grouphug:

[Euromutt]

30. You may as well ask "Where do cocaine users get their cocaine?"

The coca plant grows only a fairly limited part of the world; parts of Colombia, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia. And yet, several decades of trying to stamp out trafficking in cocaine by attacking the source has failed miserably.

Unlike coca, firearms and ammunition can be produced just about anywhere in the world. Like coca, it is practically impossible to stop them being trafficked. In the UK, the most popular crime gun of recent years has been the Russian-made Baikal IZH-79 tear gas pistol, illegally modified in underground workshops in Lithuania to fire live ammunition (the IZH-79 is essentially a rebarreled Makarov, so not much more is needed than to re-rebarrel it) and subsequently smuggle into the UK. The first political assassination in Dutch history in over 400 years (and the second since the Netherlands became an independent country), of populist politician Pim Fortuyn in 2002, was committed using a Spanish-made Star Firestar M-43. Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh was murdered with a Croatian-made HS-2000 (sold in the US as the Springfield Armory XD-9). The Nordic Biker War of 1994-1997 between the Hell's Angels and the Bandidos was fought with, among other things, weapons (including man-portable rocket launchers) stolen from Swedish military armories. Organized criminals in the People's Republic of China buy their firearms directly from corrupt personnel in the state-owned firearm manufacturing plants; due to sub-standard inventory control, it's never even noticed that the weapons are missing. Even the Japanese yakuza have no trouble acquiring firearms if and when they want them.

And that's the key phrase here: "if and when they want them." Trafficking firearms to criminals (much like trafficking drugs) is a demand-driven business, and as long as there's an end user willing to pay for the merchandise, some son of a bitch will get it to him. That's not to say it's wasted effort trying to interdict trafficking--there's no point making it easy on gun-runners--but it is a fantasy to think that it's possible to tighten the laws on legal trade in firearms to a point that the supply to the criminal element will dry up. I refer again to the example of China, where a private citizen can legally own a .177-cal air rifle at most (and he needs a permit for that) but organized criminals get hold of firearms all the same.

Despite all the bitching on this forum, and elsewhere, about how it's supposedly too easy for a criminal to acquire a firearm in the United States, there's one crucial piece of evidence that this is not the case: the existence of "straw purchasing." It is testament to the effectiveness of the Gun Control Act of 1968 (which makes guns traceable to their first buyer) and the Brady Act of 1993 (requiring background checks) that a major source of guns to the criminal element consists of traffickers who are sufficiently scared of the system that they won't purchase the guns themselves. And that we know this happens because they get caught anyway. Very few criminals, even in the U.S., are confident and/or dumb enough to walk into a gun shop and try to purchase a firearm themselves.

[PavePusher]

32. Almost, but not quite...

"Everyone is missing the real problem. Where did the 2 illegally owned handguns of the bad guys criminals come from? When we start asking that question, the answer to gun criminal violence will be obvious."

There, fixed it for you.

Because frankly, replacing the tool will not end the violence.

[one-eyed fat man]

33. Interesting problem.

But your solution, which you have made repeatedly on these pages, is registration of all handguns. First, to clear up any misconceptions, let's dispense with the notion that the law will have any affect on criminals. In fact, the US Supreme Court ruled in Hayes v US, 1968 that a criminal could not be prosecuted for failing to register a gun since registration violates his right against self-incrimination. Since the law cannot be enforced against criminals, then who does the law target?

There are a couple of things the law can accomplish:

First, the law can be used to raise revenue. By making those persons who are already inclined to obey the law pay a fee for not being criminals, the state can generate much needed revenue. The key becomes in making the fee onerous enough that to discourage firearms ownership in the troublesome lower classes but not so high to encourage widespread civil disobedience.

Second, the law can be used to criminalize gun owners who have been forgetful or otherwise innocent of criminal intent when their registration lapses by making them ineligible to renew and their firearms forever contraband. (If the scheme sounds familiar, it is Mayor Daley's.)

The second part of the problem is how do bad guys get their guns? Unless it is something turned out in a basement workshop, all guns start out legally manufactured someplace. In the US there is almost ironclad accountability from the time a serial number is stamped into steel until the first retail purchase. From manufacture, the distribution chain involves only licensed persons or government agencies up to sitting in the showcase at the gun store. Any diversion prior requires theft, collusion, or some type of criminal activity.

At the point of the first retail sale, which must be done by an FFL, a prospective buyer fills out a Form 4473 and submits to a NICS check. At this point if someone is denied purchase they are merely turned away. There is no follow up! A criminal could be number one on the FBI's most wanted list, use his real name and social security number and no law enforcement agency will do anything as a result of the felony attempt to purchase a firearm. The only thing that happens is the criminal knows for sure he is in the database.

At this point, having been denied, and knowing with certainty that no one will alert his parole officer, the criminal can enlist the aid of a family member, girlfriend or an acquaintance to make a "straw purchase" on his behalf. This is, in fact, a crime, but most of the risk is born by the sometimes unwitting purchaser, it's their signature on the 4473. This turns out to be the way crooks get most of the new guns.

Guns can last an incredibly long time. I routinely shoot guns that are over a hundred years old. Thus, there is a vast supply of used guns on the secondary market. I bought a pristine Colt Super .38 from an old lady at a garage sale my ex-wife dragged me to. I gave her her asking price. She let me know right off I wasn't going to get her, she knew "...exactly what her late husband had paid for it before the War, and she wasn't taking a dime less!" Local newspapers, co-workers, anywhere anyone might peddle anything, among the old baby furniture and heirloom antiques, will be Grandpa's old hunting guns, revolvers maiden aunts kept in their sock drawers, even collector grade Colts. If it was made before 1898, it may not even a "firearm" anymore under Federal law. Like this 1877 Colt.



In most cases someone selling under these circumstance is unable to determine with certainty if the prospective buyer is eligible to buy a firearm or not. Even if you know the buyer, you may not know that your Uncle Leroy slapped the shit outta Aunt Grace back in 1953 when he was drinking and had a domestic violence misdemeanor on his record. He may not know unless he has tried to buy a gun at retail since September of 1996. There is no mechanism for a person who is not in the business of selling guns to find out. NICS is not available to the general public. It would be handy if you were a landlord to screen potential renters, wondering about someone you, or your daughter, are dating.

That last source, the ones crooks use most, is each other. Guns are easily fenced when they are the loot from a burglary. Is there anyplace in Ohio where you could not find someone to sell you dope inside an hour? Is there a dope dealer who wouldn't sell you a gun just as quickly?

Therein lies the real problem, there is not much you can do on the legal side to affect the illegal market. Most of what can reasonably can be done has been done in most places and none of the unreasonable ones have worked where they have been tried. Even in the most authoritarian dictatorial regimes with absolute bans on gun ownership neither the jack booted government thugs nor the criminals suffer from an arms shortage. You don't have to look further than Mexico to see that no gun law, on any side of any border hinders the cartels from acquiring and using the latest in military grade weapons from five continents.

[hendo]

31. Good for them, criminals need to learn

that there are consequences to their actions!