Another Democrat, calling for a gun ban...

[virginia mountainman]

Seems like many in our party has fallen hook line and sinker for the stupid talking point, of "To keep Mexico safe, WE, must ban guns for OUR Citizens....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/18/AR2010091803147.html

[derby378]

1. Good thing he's not my candidate

If this were the primaries, I might be tempted to run against him if nobody else will. :evilgrin:

[virginia mountainman]

2. And I would be proud to support you!! NT

[old mark]

3. Mr. Engle cartainly has no idea what he is talking about - he is repeating the

chant of the anti gun crowd, to the detriment of the Democratic candidates in this election.
"See? Democrats really DO want to take our guns!"

I really wish the Administration would just remove the gun ban plank from its site and announce that it has done so. It it pointless, useless, and counter to the best interests of the party and the country.

Rec.

mark

[Ian David]

4. But at least you'll still be allowed to masturbate. n/t

[TheCowsCameHome]

18. Yes, but

only with one hand. *poof* 50% of your rights will be lost.

Think about it.:rofl:

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[msongs]

6. now now, guns don't kill people, gun owners do lol nt

[friendly_iconoclast]

8. now now, guns don't kill people, murderers do lol

FTFY...

[virginia mountainman]

9. WOW....

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

[Ramulux]

11. Maybe explain why I am wrong

Your post is so informative.

[virginia mountainman]

20. Why waste my time trying to open a tightly closed mind?

It is CRYSTAL CLEAR by your now deleted post, where you stand on this. Your CLEARLY against the Bill of Rights.

Their is no need for me to waste my time and bandwidth debating you.

It is much more effective for me, to use my oratory skills and deep knowledge of this subject to help those that are not "closed" to the idea of of individual freedom and individual rights.

[Ramulux]

22. How mature

"Your so stupid I am not even going to waste my time debating you!"

Why dont you offer up some sort of response and see how I react to it before you accuse me of being close minded? You haven't said anything. You haven't even given me anything to respond to, how do you reach the conclusion that I would not listen to your points when you haven't even made any. I'm perfectly willing to have a debate about this, but that cant happen until you offer up some sort of response.

[obxhead]

29. He said closed minded, not stupid. You were the only one to

mention that.

[SteveM]

51. What did you say that needs a response? I can't find it. nt

[derby378]

10. Perhaps you should consult the latest FBI violent crime states involving guns...

...before you start bashing our Constitutional rights.

Those two Supreme Court rulings were only the beginning.

[rrneck]

12. Fine, lets ban 'em.

So if we are able to make all the guns go away, (all 250 million or so), do you have a self defense solution for someone who is assaulted by another not using a gun, but rather using a knife, club, fists or feet?

[Ramulux]

14. No

and I dont have too. Your question is absurd, so every person in this country should own a gun on the off chance they get mugged? Thats fucking ridiculous, that is the same as saying we should allow guns in schools on the off chance there is a school shooting so it can be stopped quickly. Or allowing guns in any public establishment on the off chance it gets robbed. Criminals are going to commit crimes, you or me owning a gun is just going to make things worse. You want to reduce crime, support more funding for your local law enforcement, we dont live in a world of vigilantes, we all cant go running around with weapons thinking that if anyone messes with you, you are going to murder them. Seriously, its time to grow up, realize action movies aren't reality, and join the real world.

[rrneck]

17. Nice rant.

But do you have a solution? And since you posted such a nice rant I'll add another question. What is the average police response time in the United States?

[Ramulux]

19. So I am right?

So you agree with me? We can talk about solutions or police response time later its irrelevant, I just want to make sure you agree with my position and if you dont first explain why I am wrong.

[rrneck]

21. Well, lets add another...

Do you have a self defense solution for someone who is assaulted by another not using a firearm, but rather using a knife, club, fists or feet?

What is the average police response time in the United States?

Which firearms manufacturer do you work for?

[Ramulux]

23. Read my post and respond to it

I am willing to answer your questions but you have to respond to me first. Do you agree with me or not?

[rrneck]

25. ...

rrneck 12. Fine, lets ban 'em. (response to deleted post)

Ramulux 14. "...support more funding for your local law enforcement..."

rrneck 17. What is the average police response time in the United States?

Ramulux 19. "So you agree with me?"

See post #12 above

23. "Read my post and respond to it...Do you agree with me or not?"

Again, see post #12 above.

Ramulux 22. "I am willing to answer your questions but you have to respond to me first."

You already answered one: Ramulux 14. "No and I dont have too" .{sic}

I assume that was in response to a self defense solution. See? You were so busy ranting you didn't even know you were having a conversation.

So, what firearms manufacturer do you work for?

[rrneck]

56. Made good your escape I see.

Did you learn anything? Let me help.

People who own guns are not some monolithic herd of knuckle dragging neanderthals that you can slap around with vapid hyperbole. They are just people who own guns and their numbers come from all walks of life. Not a few are highly educated and most, if they have discussed the issue at all, have given it consideration well beyond anything you have offered here.

I would gently suggest you take time to read through some previous threads and bring yourself up to speed on the issue before you embarrass yourself further. Just a suggestion; do what you like.

[friendly_iconoclast]

24. 2/10. Lots of projection and assumption of facts not in evidence

Let's begin the examination:

Your question is absurd,

And yet you answered it.

...so every person in this country should own a gun on the off chance they get mugged?

Pssst, that's the 'guns everywhere' meme, a well-known strawman argument. Why do every single freakin one of you lot
seem to think we haven't seen it before?

Thats fucking ridiculous, that is the same as saying we should allow guns in schools on the off chance there is a school shooting so it can be stopped quickly.

It seems to have worked at least once before. And allowing guns on college campuses doesn't seem to have been a problem in the several states that already allow it. If you have evidence that's been a problem somewhere, let's have it.

Or allowing guns in any public establishment on the off chance it gets robbed.

Same as with college campuses: Show us where there's been a problem.

Oh, and a newsflash for you: Even in California, storekeepers are allowed to be armed. Possibly some of the retail
establishments you yourself frequent might have a gun behind the counter. Are you going to boycott such places?

Criminals are going to commit crimes, you or me owning a gun is just going to make things worse.

You can only speak or make the choice for yourself. It's not for you to decide what is permissable for others.
Quite often, guns do stop criminals.

Guns are like abortion, alcoholic beverages, erotica, or same-sex marriage: If you don't like them, don't get them.

We all cant go running around with weapons thinking that if anyone messes with you, you are going to murder them.

You have equated self-defense with a felony. I suggest learning the difference before you opine on the subject.

Seriously, its time to grow up, realize action movies aren't reality, and join the real world.

I'd say the abilty to discern the difference between opinion and fact is part of growing up. You need to work on that bit.

[mvccd1000]

44. "you or me owning a gun is just going to make things worse?"

How do you come up with that idea? Perhaps you have so little confidence in your own abilities or judgment that YOU owning a gun may make things worse, but you clearly can't speak for everyone (as evidenced by the numerous news links posted here to people who made things better by having a gun available).

Your arguments don't hold water.

[SteveM]

53. A number of problems, here...

"...so every person in this country should own a gun on the off chance they get mugged? Thats fucking ridiculous,..."

Who has advocated this? Since I don't know of anyone around here, I'll assume your remarks are a straw man.

"Criminals are going to commit crimes, you or me owning a gun is just going to make things worse."

This statement has not been supported. Could you please supply that?

"...we dont live in a world of vigilantes, we all cant go running around with weapons thinking that if anyone messes with you, you are going to murder them."

I know of no one here who is arguing for a 'world of vigilantes,' so I assume this is more straw. Who is 'thinking about...murder?' No one around here, unless perhaps you (since you brought it up). Again, a straw man.

The stuff about actions movies and such is vapid.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Absolutely.

Every person who wishes to have the tools to stop a mugging in progress should look into acquiring a firearm, and the training to use it.

I do. You don't?

I carry guns into public establishments.
I can't carry onto school property, but I wouldn't have a problem if the teachers I entrust with the safety of my child, who wish to carry, and obtain the appropriate permit and training, do so.


I have never made 'things worse'.

[friendly_iconoclast]

13. 7/10. That was pretty good, Ramalux

A nice blend of self-righteous self-importance and intolerance, with finishing notes of factual error and ableist hate speech.


However, wines from this particular vineyard aren't really popular these days, and the vintners who have long bottled this varietal

are stuggling to regain market share...

.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. Cops have *no* duty to protect the public.

Having a gun (and the proper training) might save someones' life.

You need to grow the fuck up, you aren't some sort of vigilante who is going to go around saving people with your weapon

I am going to point this out, again:

Gun owners aren't auxiliary police, and they don't think they are auxiliary police. Where on Earth did you get the idea
they were anything more than people looking out for themselves?

If they are trained and alert, they will quite often be able to save themselves in extremis. And that's all 99.9% of them expect.

...that is why law enforcement exists

Law enforcement exists to try and solve crimes, not prevent them.

... So please explain to me why allowing everyone to own ridiculous amounts of guns isn't a public safety problem.

I'll give it a try- once you explain what "ridiculous amounts of guns" are. One? Ten? A hundred?

Let me tell you something- If someone is out to commit a crime, one gun is too many. If, like *most* gun owners, someone
is law abiding, a hundred is just a nice collection.

[Callisto32]

47. /;So please explain to me why allowing everyone to own ridiculous amounts of guns isn't..."

Glad you asked.

See, I can't ever see using more than two at a time sooooo.....

[merqz]

7. We'd be better off legalizing drugs

if we want to take an extreme step.

In addition to being more effective, the other difference is that banning guns would be unconstitutional. Legalizing drugs would not be.

[defendandprotect]

16. Exactly ... that would put huge dent in the GOP/NRA "fear" sales of guns ....!!

Most people with guns are arming themselves again other people with guns!!

[friendly_iconoclast]

28. Well, even you have to admit....

...bad people with guns aren't usually put off by readings from Dorothy Day and an offer of some nice chamomile-lavender tea...

[defendandprotect]

57. We should be able to use your info, I'm sure, to deny them gun permits!!

[lawodevolution]

27. Ramulux, only you and your side are using personal insults

Only children need to use personal attacks. Only a person with limited development of ethical reasoning wants to ban the rights of others but wants to maintain his/her rights. Guns are a civil liberty (and civil rights issue) and protected by the 14th. Grow up a d resolve you immature fear of allowing people to own guns. Owning a gun is the greatest form of responsibility, and if you bother to read the law you will find that children can't own guns because they are too immature. People who decide not to own a gun or people who live under total gun bans have their maturity questioned. If you own a gun and don't use it in crime like over 99% of gun owners, that is the perfect litmus test for maturity.

[yellerpup]

30. He's my rep.

He wouldn't survive here if he voted any other way. We have high density population, lots of kids, and precious little open space. The police have guns.

[spin]

31. There are lots of urban areas in the United States ...

that also have high density population, kids and little open space. Many are very gun friendly.

[yellerpup]

49. This one isn't.

Engel knows his constituency.

[spin]

50. I can understand why he plays to his base ...

which is why Obama was seen as so opposed to RKBA. Obama would have had a hard time getting elected to be a dog catcher in Daley's Chicago if he was pro-gun.

But pro-RKBA supporters are changing laws which restrict firearms ownership all over this nation. In my opinion these changes are positive as they enable people to successfully defend themselves from criminal attack.

In a few years, firearms may be far more common and easier to obtain in Engel's district. He may chose to continue to oppose RKBA and support useless "feel good" ideas such as another "assault weapons" ban and he may find himself no longer in office.

Of course, I could be wrong. People who have little understanding or exposure to firearms and firearm owners often have irrational fears. Change is always difficult. Engel's base may continue to support him and if so he is, indeed, a wise politician.

My experience is that firearm ownership by responsible people is not a serious problem although obviously some tragic incidents will occur. Lives will also be saved by the successful use of firearms to stop criminal attacks. Recent declines in the violent crime rate in our country at the same time as firearm sales were skyrocketing show that more guns do not equal more crime. It's possible that more guns do reduce crime, but there are many factors to consider. I personally believe that better policing tactics are the most effective short time approach to solving the crime problem.

Many people who live the big cities that currently have gun unfriendly laws feel that firearm ownership is fine in rural areas, but not in highly populated areas. I have lived in densely populated areas where firearm ownership was very common and many people had concealed carry licenses and carried. These areas were far from the "Wild West" predicted by the groups who oppose firearm ownership.

It's possible to see that change in attitude toward firearms by watching this map of how relaxed Right to Carry laws swept across our nation in the last twenty five years.



Bob Dylan had it right, "The Times They Are a-Changin'."

[SteveM]

55. Perhaps he knows his "base," but there are other Congressional districts...

who have to put up with the flash over when someone across the country opines on gun-control. I can't fault someone for stating his/her views when they are met with hostility elsewhere, but in this case he makes poor arguments, combining them with fanciful wishes, all in the service of a doomed culture war.

Doesn't it strike you as ironic that we have at least 2 major forms of prohibition vying for attention on the border? I wonder if the Congressperson also support drug prohibition.

[sharesunited]

32. Make them scarce. Abundance of guns and ammo is an absolute bad for the world.

[lawodevolution]

33. Then you are doing a bad job

Ive calculated with a survey that there are 75 million extra guns in the hands of US citizens because gun owners were either pissed into buying more (like me) or scared into buying guns because of the anti gun movement. You all are the world's greatest gun salesmen, in fact I feel like buying another one thanks to this thread. You try to ban "assault rifles" and you turned that type of gun into america's favorite.

[sharesunited]

34. You are part of the problem. That's not anything to boast about.

[lawodevolution]

35. You mean this problem?

Murder a d violent crime rates significantly down in 2009 yet with a huge surge in number of guns owned by Americans.

[sharesunited]

36. I'll see your graph and raise you X hundred newspaper clippings of bleeding and dead.

Imagine trying to pass off a blue line as some kind of reassurance that abundance and access are not a continuing menace to society.

All you can truly mean is that you think abundance and access are worth all the resulting misery.

I understand that you value abundance and access more highly.

That's explainable as a defect in your value system.

[lawodevolution]

37. There are also plenty

Of stories where guns save lives. The stories added to your list of victims of violence are less and less each year, too bad for you.

[sharesunited]

38. The stories posted in the Guns Forum here are mainly guns-as-solution-to-guns stories.

Someone with a gun is emboldened to start trouble.

And is stopped with a gun.

Zero points and zero sum.

[virginia mountainman]

39. Thats rich...

LOL you should send Brady that ditty, and have them set it to music!

They can use it to raise money, to purchase more billboards in Florida

[lawodevolution]

42. No the stories are about people who used a gun as a tool to defend themselves from an attacker

Whether the attacker has a gun, knife or other dangerous object

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

46. I think you meant to say "guns-as-a-solution-to-crime"

Guns aren't the problem... people who choose to break the law are.
A firearm is an inanimate object. It doesn't make people commit crime.

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. You believe publicity means more than verifiable fact.

I believe you have mistaken Democratic Underground for Fox News.

[cleanhippie]

52. What you meant to say: "I will dive deeper into wilfull ignorance and see you with anecdotes"

I fixed it for you.

[friendly_iconoclast]

41. I can see why you would claim declining crime and murder rates are a problem

Makes it harder to peddle Prohibition. Interestingly, the premiere of "Boardwalk Empire" tonight opened with a group claiming

that the (then) pending advent of alcohol prohibition was going to solve all manner of social ills.


I leave it to the disinterested observer to note how well that worked...

[proteus_lives]

43. Old dependable SU.

[Hoopla Phil]

45. Um, not exactly. Try this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x339915

[Callisto32]

48. People are an absolute-fucking-bad for the world.

Want proof? Plutonium, doesn't do much on its own eh? Give it to people....

God, man. Get a new dance...

[lawodevolution]

58. Plutonium does plenty on its own

Did you know that?

[Callisto32]

59. Yeah, yeah, it sits and decays, releasing harmful particles, blah blah blah.

You know EXACTLY what my point was.