LTTE “Firearms rights not understood” (Montgomery Advertiser, Alabama)

[jody]

I am not the author of Firearms rights not understood

Over the past several years there has been a resurgence in American citizens openly carrying firearms in public. Open carry, as it is called, is currently legal in 43 states across the U.S. In keeping with that fundamental right to bear arms, our Website was set up to instruct citizens about their rights under Alabama law.

While most citizens know they can apply for a concealed permit at the sheriff's office of the county in which they reside, most people don't know that you must have a concealed permit to carry a pistol in your vehicle. Also, a concealed permit may come with a list of restrictions (qualifications). Open carry is unlicensed (no permit required) and unrestricted. Except for areas where it is posted that firearms are not allowed (or you receive verbal notification) and for being in or near a public demonstration, open carry is permitted throughout the state as only the state Legislature can make laws about the carrying of firearms.

If you are interested in your rights to bear arms or just wondering what the laws might be concerning open carry, we invite you to stop by our site and check the state Supreme Court decisions, appellate court rulings and attorney's general opinions dealing with open carry. The site is www.alabamaopencarry.com

Tony Shiflett
Huntsville

[old mark]

1. This is very similar to the state law here in PA - no license to carry is required

if you carry openly, but many local police officers do not understand that...you may be opening yourself up to some harrassment and occasional detainment...also some public places really object to people with handguns visibly displayed and will ask you to leave or will call the police. There are groups in PA and I am sure in every state that advocate open carry of firearms...I have no feelings either way on this - Ihave been carrying a handgun concealed (with a PA state license) for over 15 years now, and plan to continue...


mark

[Statistical]

2. Sometimes it takes a little civil disobedience.

VA has always had open carry and by always I mean it has never been illegal not even one day since the nation was founded. However it fell out of favor and many LEO simply didn't know the law.

About 10 years ago detainment and harassment was common but no longer. I had a lady call 911 on me; obviously she didn't really think I was a threat because she stood right then and told me she was calling 911. From her half the of the phone call conversation it was clear the dispatcher ACTUALLY ASKED SOME QUESTIONS. She hung up very angry and no Police were called. It has taken a decade of people standing up for their rights and risking false detainment, false arrest, and suing the Police for millions of dollars (combined). Eventually the Police Chief started worrying more about the bottom line to their budget then harassing the law abiding.

I learned a long time ago when dealing with Police the magic question is
"Officer am I being detained?" If they answer no then simply walk away. You have no requirement to co-operate with the Police either in your home or in public.

If you want to make your intentions more clear you can do something along the lines of:
"Officer am I being detained?" "Officer since I am ending this conversation and leaving now. If you wish to continue this conversation you will have to detain me and I will answer no further questions without legal counsel".

Most people are completely unaware that to DETAIN you (this is a specific legal action)the Police must have Reasonable Suspicion. If they don't then any detainment is false and a violation of your civil rights. Something that can be sued in both local and federal court.

Most well trained LEO will never answer that question in the affirmative if they don't have "reasonable suspicion". They know it is a trapping question (and likely only asked by someone who understands their rights). Most LEO when harassing try to make is "seem" like you can't leave but never actually stating that as fact. If you reach that incorrect conclusion it isn't the fault of the interviewing officer. If they answer YES I AM DETAINING YOU well that removes any ambiguity from the charade and opens them up to legal challenge.

If an Officer advised you that you are not being detained you have no responsibility to continue the conversation any longer than YOU want. Police have no right to stop your travel or business without detaining or arresting you.

[safeinOhio]

3. I agree with you, however, I am

prepared to be tased, handcuffed, thrown to the ground and punched while the LEO is screaming "stop resisting" the whole time. Also aware that anything I say, can and will be misquoted and used against me. Most LEOs are not well trained.

[Statistical]

4. They get well tained eventually.

An officer acting without reasonable suspicion can be sued individually and directly (along with the state).

It has been done multiple times in VA.

"Also aware that anything I say, can and will be misquoted "
That is why you say nothing.

Officer am I being detained?
Officer if I am not being detained I will be leaving.
Officer I am taking your blocking my path as legal detainment. Is it your intention to detain me?
Officer I will not answer any questions without legal counsel, should I call my lawyer now and advise him I am being detained?
Officer under what reasonable suspicion am I being detained?
Officer do you mind if I write down the time and reason I was detained by you?
Officer am I being detained?
Officer thank you for your time but I will be leaving now because I am not being detained.
Officer am I being detained?
Officer am I being detained?

Even poorly trained Police officers are smart enough to catch the meaning of questions about detainment. It isn't just a casual word. It very black and white. It removes any ambiguity from Police operations. Anyone asking it obviously is aware of their rights.

Luckily in VA simply being armed doesn't give rise to reasonable suspicion. In Ohio I am not sure.

[jeepnstein]

9. Good luck with that.

I had a kid pull that one on me at a KKK rally once. He talked himself right into getting arrested. If you're stopped, it's generally based on some kind of probable cause. So yeah, you can be stopped, Terry frisked, and asked for basic information. What they can't do is hold you for an excessive amount of time, like fifteen minutes or so, unless you are stalling them.

Your tactic will work if the officer is fishing. It won't work if there's probable cause.

[Statistical]

10. First of all the standard for detainment is reasonable suspicion not probable cause.

Second cops don't always have reasonable suspicion or probable cause when they stop to "talk" to a potential suspect. If they have probable cause you are getting arrested and there is likely nothing you can say or not say to avoid that. Me walking out of a store with a pistol in a state where that is a lawful activity is not reasonable suspicion of anything.

Most of the time cops have no reasonable suspicion however the law doesn't PROHIBIT them from talking to you without reasonable suspicion it simply doesn't COMPEL you to respond. If you choose to talk to cops when you aren't required (even if you aren't aware you aren't required) that is your "choice". Cops aren't required to inform you of your rights until you are arrested . No cop is going to say "BTW I don't have reasonable suspicion so despite the way I am acting I have absolutely no authority to demand information or even make you stay. Yo can leave at anytime". The cops will use the average citizens ignorance of the law to their advantage.

The "Officer am I being detained" simply cuts through that game.
If you are being detained then I would recommend not saying another word and contacting legal counsel.
If you are not being detained then there is absolutely no reason to continue talking or even staying there.

Or as Supreme Court states in Terry v. Ohio

"There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation."

"So yeah, you can be stopped, Terry frisked, and asked for basic information"
Only if the Police have "reasonable suspicion". Without it you can't be detained. In any instance the Supreme Court has ruled the only information you are required to give Police is your identity. Period.

If they have reasonable suspicion they can detain me. If they have probable cause that a crime has been committed they can arrest me. In both instances they are very likely to do so regardless of what I say, hence there is no reason to talk and certainly no reason to talk if they have no reasonable suspicion.

However most of the time it works like this:
Cops see to "suspicious person"; they stop to talk to them. They have no reasonable suspicion and thus can't force the person to talk or even stay. The perp however doesn't know they have a right to not talk and can leave at snytime. If the Police had probable cause they simply would make an arrest. In this instance the person COULD leave and Police could do nothing however the the cops are not required to inform this person of this fact. The Police are hoping that the perp will do/say/show something which gives them further evidence and leads to a detainment or arrest.

"It won't work if there's probable cause."
If there is reasonable suspicion you are going to get detained ANYWAYS.
If there is probable cause you are looking at an arrest ANYWAYS.
There is no point talking to the Police without counsel.

[old mark]

6. This is the problem with carrying a knife - even a common pocket knife.

The laws vary from town to town, and if the cops want to bust you for it, they will. There is a perception around here that any folding knife with a blade over 3" is illegal, but there is nothing in the law that states that...but the law is vague and subject top interpretation, wherein lies the trouble...many cops think the knife is illegal if the blade is longer than the width of the palm of their hand...and depending on the circumstances they will charge you with a concealed weapon charge if they feel like it...
It is all up to the cop at that time.
Not a good law, IMO.

mark

[spin]

35. That's why it's nice to live in Florida and have a concealed WEAPONS permit ...

Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

In receiving a license to carry a concealed weapon for lawful self-defense, you are undertaking a great responsibility. A license to carry a concealed weapon is not a license to use it. I am sure you share my hope that you will never find it necessary to use a weapon in self-defense. If you do, the law will protect you only if you have acted within the law. Those who are choosing to arm themselves with weapons should, therefore, be armed with the most indispensable weapon of all knowledge.

We are providing this information to you as a service in pursuit of that goal. Only you can provide the wisdom, restraint, and good judgment that the law demands of those who possess the ability to take another human life.

Charles H. Bronson
Commissioner

***snip***

Q. What kinds of weapons are included in the concealed weapons law?

A. The Jack Hagler Self-defense Act defines concealed weapons or firearms as follows: handguns, electronic weapons or devices, tear gas guns, knives and billies. The information provided emphasizes handguns, because they are one of the most commonly used weapons for self-defense. emphasis added
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

One time while in a gun store, a police officer noticed that I had a Benchmade folder clipped to the front pocket of my jeans. When he asked if I had a concealed weapons permit, I just smiled and showed him my permit.

Florida knife law is somewhat ambiguous. Technically carrying a "common pocket knife" (whatever that means) in Florida is not illegal as long as it's not concealed. Since the officer could see the knife clipped to my pocket it was not concealed. But since I had a concealed weapons permit, he was satisfied and I had no urge to engage in an argument over his interpretation of the law. I've found very few police officers who truly understands the knife laws in Florida, which is understandable since they are so vague.

Currently I always carry a fully serrated 4" Spyderco Endura in a small pocket in my cargo pants or shorts.



I also carry a fixed blade knife in a belt sheath, currently a Bark River 4.25" Bird and Trout. Normally in the small rural town I live, this knife causes little notice. If I travel to a more urban area, I just concealed it under a shirt.



I am not a knife fighter as that is a martial art which requires serious training. I do have a small collection of knives and find them useful tools as well as interesting items to acquire. Many people buy a partially serrated blade as a multipurpose blade, but I've found it a poor compromise. A fully serrated blade is excellent for many tough jobs and the folding Spyderco Endura is an excellent workhorse. When I use a knife as a tool for slicing food, I prefer to use a fixed blade as it is far easier to clean than a folder.

[cleanhippie]

7. That is the best advice. I use it myself and tell others the same thing.

[benEzra]

5. The Brady Campaign ranks Alabama's gun laws at 19th strictest in the nation, IIRC.

Hopefully you can get some of those Jim Crow era rules repealed...

[jody]

8. AL along with other states has room to improve however I hope Brady never ranks us #1. n/t

[Hoyt]

11. Other than hunting, why would any reasonable person carry openly, legal or not?

For that matter, why would they carry concealed -- legal or not?

Last time I saw someone openly carrying was some fool with dual-shoulder holsters, he was pretty much laughed out of the restaurant. Well, there were two little 6 year old boys who thought he was cool. And by coincidence it was near Huntsville.

When people get reasonable about the necessity to carry -- concealed or openly -- the anti-gun lobby will wither away.

[jody]

12. In some states citizens with some exceptions do not require a permit to carry openly but do require

a permit to carry concealed.

I'm confident that DU's real experts will amplify this post.

[Glassunion]

13. "I'm confident that DU's real experts will amplify this post. "

In some states citizens with some exceptions do not require a permit to carry openly but do require a permit to carry concealed.

Although, I'm hardly a "real" expert.

[jody]

20. What is your point? n/t

[Glassunion]

23. Bad joke...

Making your words well... bigger... thus seemingly "louder"... hence amplification of your post...

Guess it was not funny.

Sorry... My bad. :(

[jody]

24. Not your fault at all. My fault and I now understand. Just charge it to the aging process. n/t

[Glassunion]

25. Not your fault.

A joke that has to be explained is not funny.

[jody]

26. It is when you get to be 75.

At the Nursing Home a man took his elderly father to a nursing home to check it out. He sat his father down on a sofa in the main aisle way and went to talk with the administrators.

The old man started to tilt slowly toward the left. A Doctor came by and said, "Let me help you." The Doctor piled several pillows on the left side of the old man so he would stay upright.

The older man started to tilt slowly to the right. An orderly noticed and put several more pillows on his right side to keep him upright.

The old man started to lean forward when a nurse came by and piled several pillows in front of him. About this time, the son returned.

"Well, Dad, isn't this a nice place."

The old man replied, "I guess it's ok, but they won't let me fart."

[Glassunion]

27. That joke never gets old. Lol.

[PavePusher]

14. What are your definitions of "reasonable" and "neccesity"...

And what is wrong with either carry method?

P.S. I shouldn't have to beg permission from the government, and pay a fee, to exercise a Civil Right. Please consider that while composing your reply.

[Hoyt]

18. My question remains -- legal or not, what's the necessity to carry?

I never carry my machete into a public place -- and I have the right.

It's just not something "mature/decent" folks do in public.

If you want to play with it at home, fine. But come on people -- this "there's a .00000000007% chance something might happen in Chuck E Cheese" mentality is ridiculous. Don't you think?

[Glassunion]

22. Look at it like this....

From my perspective...

The new Yankee's Stadium holds 52,325 people. Let's say you fill it up for a year.

235 of those people will be a victim of violent crime at some point during the year and they would not make it home. Those are the odds for the average Joe.

Now, if you fill it with my demographic. 1,350 of those folks would be going to the hospital as a victim.

[Hoyt]

28. Do you seriously think it would be lower if all those 52,325 pack, many openly?

Don't think so. Nor do I find those odds particularly threatening. But gun toters don't look at stats rationally.

I'm going out tonight without my machete.

[friendly_iconoclast]

29. No, and this was discussed at great length in a very recent thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x331344

But it has a good chance of preventing one for the person who's carrying. It's not a guarantee, and only a fool would think
it is.

Beyond that: What's irrational about, say, post #15? Are the stats given inaccurate?
I'd point out that 'rational' is not synonymous with 'reacting the same way I would to the same information'...

[SteveM]

34. Nice stereotype, there...

"But gun toters don't look at stats rationally."

You could take out "gun toters" (probably over 6,000,000 American citizens) and substitute whatever group you like, and it is still a stereotype and very prejudiced.

People should have the right to carry a firearm (either concealed or openly) if those people deem it a necessity. That some of them may look the fool for it does not denigrate the vast majority who carry without anyone (even you) ever knowing about it.

[PavePusher]

31. Thus you deftly dodge the issue. Good job.

And now you apply rather singular usages to "mature" and "decent".

Your dictionary seems rather... limited. As does your perspective.

[Hoyt]

32. You gotta be simple with folks who think they need to pack, especially openly.

What can I say?

[PavePusher]

33. Please don't read in public.

It's not mature or decent.

Yeah, see how stupid that sounds? You gotta be simple with folks who think they need to exercise Civil Rights in public.

P.S. You still haven't explained your definitions.

[X_Digger]

15. My odds of being the victim of a violent crime are five times higher than having a house fire.

I have a fire extinguisher and three smoke detectors. I'd consider that reasonable.

For the same reason, I frequently carry a concealed firearm.

In the US there are 400,000 residential fires every year, and there are ~105,000,000 homes. Odds of a home fire? 1 in 263.

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Fire-Prevention/fires-factsheet.html

According to the DOJ, the rate of being the victim of a violent crime is 20 / 1,000 overall (as high as 27 / 1,000 for some groups like african americans.) That comes out to 1 in 50.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1743

[Glassunion]

19. I must be paranoid...

I have 5 smoke detectors and 6 fire extinguishers.

Smoke detectors: 1 Basement, 1 Living/Dining/Kitchen area, 1 Bedroom, 1 Hallway and 1 in the Den.

Fire Extinguishers: 1 Basement (Big one), 1 Kitchen(specific for kitchen type fires), 1 Hall Closet, 1 linen closet between bedroom and den, 1 in my truck and 1 in my wife's car.

All of this in a small townhome.

and... "(as high as 27 / 1,000 for some groups like african americans.)" Fuck me! What did I do?

[X_Digger]

30. I have one in each car as well..

along with a couple of bottles of water, a first aid kit, a thermal blanket, a small tool kit inc jumper cables & fluids, and some energy bars.

[Statistical]

16. Not a bill of needs. It is a bill of rights.

The anti-gun lobby won't wither away on its own. They were actively trying to push MORE restrictive gun laws when conceal carry was prohibited in most states (back 20+ years ago).

They support complete gun bans in both Chicago & DC. The idea that if gun owners keep their guns at home the anti-gun lobby will just wither away is fiction.

They will wither away but it is because Americans are walking up to the same ole bull shit they have been peddling for 2 decades.

[Glassunion]

17. I have and continue to do both...

Although I do have some tact when carrying. Unlike the example you gave about the individual with the shoulder holsters, I do not open carry when I am out to eat.

I open carry when I feel the situation calls for it. Some, are of the belief that the best way to stay safe is to advertise to the anonymous predators out there that we won't be an easy mark. They see a firearm, and they go the other way. They fade back into the shadows. So, when I am moving money(which my job sometimes requires) I openly carry. Once the money is in the bank or at its destination, firearm is then concealed. I feel that is the best way to keep everyone safe. If a bad guy sees my firearm and decides that what I am carrying is not worth the trouble of what is on my hip, then no harm will come to anyone. But if it is concealed, that individual will find out the hard way which is less preferable in my mind. Since I am advertizing that I have money(carrying a big canvas bag) walking into a bank, I may as well advertize that attacking me would not be in their best interests.

As far as need(you used the word "necessity") goes... Why do I need to carry a gun? It's quite simple. What do I do at the moment when I realize that I need it? There are moments in life where all of a sudden you could find yourself in a situation, where you cannot run, you cannot hide and your life will end unless you do "something".

Another beautiful thing about need. "Need" is not a requirement of a civil right(restriction on the government). Meaning you do not have to prove any "need" to your government to have permission from them to exercise a right. Look at all of the states that issue CC licenses(48 of them). Those states have determined that self defense is a "natural right" a "civil right" or whatever, and that they(the government) cannot protect you as well as you can protect yourself. Remember, the police have no(zero, zip, nada) legal obligation to protect you or to save you from any harm.

[spin]

21. Why would anyone take lessons in self defense? ...

Why would anyone carry pepper spray?

Obviously people carry firearms for self protection. Those who dislike firearms or the right to carry one which is legal in many states, insinuate that those who carry live in fear or are excessively paranoid.

My experience with those who have a concealed carry permit is that they are the type of people who are self reliant and prefer to be prepared for any eventuality. While they realize that the chances of ever having to use their weapon in legal self defense is very slim, they also understand that they might just find themselves in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Many of the people I know who have carry permits come from a military or police background or are EMTs or firemen. Some have a martial arts background. Some work in a profession that requires them to travel in dangerous areas. Some work at a business that might be a target of a robbery (such as a jewelry store). Some just enjoy shooting and firearms and see no reason not to carry.

I am seeing more women who are interested in carrying a concealed weapon. It's hard for a 120 to 140 pound woman to successfully stop an attack from a 180 to 220 pound male.

Some license holders probably are paranoid, although I have never met a person with a carry permit that struck me as excessively fearful.

People carry firearms concealed for many reasons. Open carry is not allowed in urban areas in Florida where I live, so I can't speak for the motivations of those who carry openly.

I suppose that a lot comes down to your view on life. If you believe that the chances of ever being attacked are so slim that carrying a weapon makes no sense and in fact might cause more problems than it would ever solve, then you will not carry.

On the other hand if you do have a good reason to carry, or if you are a believer in Murphy's Law, than you might decide to "pack heat".

"If anything can go wrong, it will."
Murphy's Law

You might compare the decision to carry to playing the Lottery. Some very intelligent people realize that the chances of winning the lotto are so slim that it's foolish to waste money. Some understand this, but chose to buy $20 worth of tickets if the jackpot reaches a predetermined amount. Some understand the odds but believe that while there is only an infinitesimal chance of winning there is absolutely no chance to win if you don't have at least one ticket. A few are willing to waste an enormous amount of money, believing that they WILL win.

The comparison is that most people decide not to carry as the odds are that they never will have a reason for a weapon. Some get a concealed carry permit and only carry when they travel through dangerous areas. Some carry because they realize that while there is little chance of ever needing a weapon, the first rule of surviving a gun fight is to have a gun. A few just believe that they WILL be attacked without good reason.