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Ohio CCW holder, defends herself, and others with hidden handgun...all caught on tape..

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:32 PM
Original message
Ohio CCW holder, defends herself, and others with hidden handgun...all caught on tape..
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 04:35 PM by virginia mountainman
Mayor Daley, Mayor Fenty, Sara Brady, Paul Helmke, Mike Bloomberg, and others in the gun control movement, would rather see HER, disarmed..

With great video..Just when did she have "time" to call 911??

http://www.fox8.com/news/wjw-elyria-robbery-txt,0,61397...
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:34 PM
Response to Original message
1. Hottest gun porn (gorn) Ive seen in a while
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Ain't' it great that we live in a country that recognizes a persons right to self defense!
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 05:38 PM by Hoopla Phil
It's great when the good guys win.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. There are no good guys
Life aint a western. There are just different circumstances. Sometimes the only thing separating a store clerk from a robber is a consistent pay check.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. So, everyone is just a criminal waiting to come out?
Is that seriously what you are saying?
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. You aren't a criminal until you come out, are you?
Im just saying that there's no saints really. Find me a guy who won't break a law in any circumstance, and Ill find you a sucker--a perfect slave.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. Did you have fun stuffing that strawman?
You imply that the perp was robbing at gunpoint for some sort of moral reason or higher calling. Unless you can document that he had no other choice to feed his starving child or equivalent...that BS. Its not about "who won't break a law in any circumstance" its who is willing to put risk the lives of others for their wants.

Jean Valjean he is not...

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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. LOL. Talk about strawmans
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 08:39 PM by Oregone
"You imply that..."

I just said that this isn't a western and there aren't "good" guys (yeah, but maybe there are bad guys, ie, sociopaths).

The only good guys I see are people who haven't been fucked hard enough yet, or haven't been bought off at their going rate
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. Sure there is. I just saw this video of a good guy (lady) defending
herself from a bad guy. Maybe you missed it.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. I saw some people
They probably looked pretty similar to the crowd that stoned Jesus
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Ha Ha Ha. That was a good one.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
65. Did they shout "His blood be on us and our children!" as well?
Since it's not like there are any photographs of the event (which was probably heavily embellished, possibly fabricated entirely), you're saying what? That they looked like a bunch of Mel Gibson's movie extras?
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Wow, does relativism taste good or what?
:puke:
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. Think that one was a Wowser. Check this one out.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #27
50. Crap.
What a weirdo.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Crap!
Poverty makes people poor, it does not make them thieves. Criminality is a choice. There have been millions of poor people who may not have had much, but never resorted to crime. The robber in that video was miserable, but he was not Les Miserable. You can not possible believe he was stealing to feed his starving family? He wasn't filching bread from a bakery. He might have been wanting to feed a drug habit, but that as much as I'd concede.

No, most likely he wanted money. He was young, strong, and figured he could beat down the door and take want he wanted from that "old woman." Likely half the "fun" for him was hearing her scream in terror as he repeatedly bashed in the door.

I am sure he was all broke up about how the economic down-turn forced him to resort to victimizing that woman. Or wait, she was a just a stooge, risking it all to save the 'corporate money' when if she had let him in, give him what he wants, and trust in his gentle nature that he wouldn't have hurt anyone??

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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Povery breeds depravity
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 08:34 PM by Oregone
"I am sure he was all broke up about how the economic down-turn forced him to resort to victimizing that woman."

He probably wasn't thinking about much of anything. Maybe he just wanted some dough so he could get high; hell, its the next best thing to laying out on a yacht

Everyone has limits; be poor long enough and your limits become more visible. Its amazing what some people will do to avoid starving, and its amazing what some people will do to never have to worry about starving again. And for some, simply seeing people starve all around you, day in and day out, sure makes your take on society's rules change a bit.

Whether someone is motivated to do "wrong" by poverty, or greed, everyone has limits and everyone has a price. I worry most about those who aren't aware of their own.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Depravity is a habit
Fifty-six percent of the violent felons convicted in the 75 most populous counties from 1990 through 2002 had a prior conviction, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Of the offenders with prior felony records, the study found that at the time of the new crime 18 percent were on probation, 12 percent on release pending disposition of a prior case and 7 percent on parole.

The bureau also reported 38 percent had a prior felony conviction and 15 percent had been previously convicted for a violent felony.

In another finding, the bureau said youths under age 21 commit 30 percent of all homicides.


Your little buddy in the attempted hold up had apparently robbed a flower shop and beat florist just the day before. Oh, and I have seen starving, I was born in Germany in 1942. My parents emigrated to the United States in 1954 from what was then East Germany. Crimes of desperation were women trading a soldier sex for potatoes out of a mess tent, not strong arm robbery.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Hes not my buddy
Just a human. I hate all of mankind equally.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #35
69. "I hate all of mankind equally." Does that include yourself? nt
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Everyone has their limits
But not everyone has principles , or a price .
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Oh, I agree with that
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. Poverty breeds poor people.
That's some grade A bullshit right there. I grew up in the poorest county in one of the most backwater appalachian states. Yet our crime rate was a fraction of the rate in the 'big' cities.

Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. It isn't that you are all law-abiding folk there
Its just that boss hog never caught up to you.

What county? Just curious. I lived in one of those once
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Buchanan County, Va - coal country
15 minutes from WV, 30 minutes from KY, 90 minutes (driving fast) from TN.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yeah, a tad to the southwest of where I was
We were still about 45 minutes from WV. Quite fun place for a kid from Oregon
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #40
67. Depends on what you mean by "law abiding"
Which, I acknowledge, is frequently a source of miscommunication in this area of discussion. Personally, I consider "law abiding" as shorthand to broadly mean that the person does not commit any offenses that inflict physical or material harm on a victim; mala in se, if you will. Strictly speaking, someone who engages the services of a prostitute, smokes marijuana (without a prescription), drinks under the age of 21, kills a deer without a tag, or distills and sells moonshine--to name but a few examples--is not "law abiding" since those are all criminal offenses (in most of the U.S. anyway), but we're talking essentially victimless crimes.

While I confess to not being averse to pedantry myself, I get a little irritated by antis (not specifically you, Oregone, I'm thinking more of the "gun Guys" website et al.of which I ) who point to some gun owner who gets busted for something I consider fairly trivial (hell, I'm originally from the Netherlands, and there's a lot of stuff of which I think it shouldn't be a criminal offense in the first place) and go "Ha! So much for 'law abiding'!" That's not an argument; it's just playing semantics.

Of course, it does help if you define your terms beforehand.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #29
68. He was a punk, yet you defend him with the usual arch-cynicism. nt
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
71. Do you believe the shit you post?
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #71
73. Why do you seem to enjoy the taste so much?
Damn right. There are two people alive right now that may not have been if not for a legally carried handgun. Why would you deprive someone of that ability?
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. deleted. posted in wrong place.
Edited on Sun Jul-04-10 11:15 PM by Hoopla Phil
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. A typical statement from you.
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Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good for her. Can't tell if she hit the guy or not.
Hopefully he'll think twice and thrice before trying another robbery.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:44 PM
Response to Original message
3. This story can't possibly be true...
The owner says she decided to get a permit to carry the gun after the June 2008 murder of a clerk at a gas station in Elyria. In that case, the clerk was killed, even though she complied with all of the robber's demands.

That is not credible. It's a smear on decent felons everywhere!
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frebrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. Recommended.......
but it seems the "unrecers" have been busy.

Can't imagine what they find to disapprove of in this story.

:shrug:
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. Her only mistake.. she didn't double tap.. center mass...
It looks like she was using a .380. Too bad it wasn't a .45

The perp had held up and beat a florist shop owner in the same neighborhood ...the morning before.

He showed up today at a local hospital with a gunshot wound.

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. She did perfect. She shot him enough to make the threat go away.
Good job, well done.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
76. You are funny!
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
7. k and r
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. My husband boss had a concealed carry permit gun
He went to a bar and got into a fight with a guy there. When he was leaving the bar, the man followed him outside, words and a fist fight started. The man pulled out a knife and went after him. My husband's boss reached for his gun inside his pocket. Let me stop right here. Personally, I think this a very stupid move on his part. He should have just ran away. Anyway, he didn't see the thug's two friends who had come up behind him. THEY saw him reach into his pocket and grabbed his from behind.

Boss was knocked down to the ground by the two men and was cut and beaten unconscience. That they didn't kill him, he can thank his lucky stars. He was then thrown down a flight of stairs. His gun was stolen by the men.

Hours later somebody found him and took him to the hospital. He had to file a police report giving all details of the fight and report his gun stolen. The end of the story is that his permit was revoked AND he got into a whole lot of trouble at his job.

Everyone in his office, and my husband and I, said he NEVER should have reached for his gun. In a situation like this, RUNNING would have been the wisest choice.
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. And who's to say the other guys couldn't run faster
Or he wouldn't have run into the two guys who grabbed him.

Not there so I don't know entire situation. But one thing you do have to be aware of who & what is around you.

Guns are not a guarantee you won't be hurt. They just help to even the odds in a lot of cases.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. If he didn't start the fight...
and from the story as you told it, he left and was then attacked with a deadly weapon, and uneven numbers, he was fully justified in attempting to defend himself.

Situational awareness is of prime importance however.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Reasonable force and Imminent danger of death
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 06:57 PM by HockeyMom
Yes, he left. It started with a fist fight and escalated with the knife. BUT he was still not in imminent danger of death. The guy was not holding him down with a knife at his throat. He was outside in the open and not in a confined space, nor in his own home. He most certainly could have ran away. He provoked the other 2 men when they saw him reach for a gun. They could even say they were DEFENDING their friend from being SHOT. Get it?

If somebody is standing a distance away from you in a wide open public place with a knife, it is NOT reasonable force to pull out a gun and shoot them. You can not in imminent danger of your life.

Run it by an attorney
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. All his asshattery aside . It is reasonable force
You most definitely can are be in imminent danger .
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Run it by a cop
or an attorney. Besides which, why was his carry permit revoked if he was so much in the "right"?
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
33. I already did
And his permit was revoked because of his asshattery , hence the " asshattery aside " .
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. Permits are sometimes recinded without good cause.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 09:57 PM by PavePusher
And it takes a lot of effort and legal fees to get back. Not always the fault of the Citizen.

P.S. Never trust legal advice from police at face value. Even with the best of intentions, they are frequently unfamiliar with the law, notoriously so for gun laws. Lawyers, statuates and published case law should be your guides.
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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #20
56. The 21ft rule is taught to law enforcement
across the country, and has been used in thousands of defense cases.

Anyone within 21-feet armed with a knife is a deadly threat, and justifies deadly force!
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
82. Maybe his permit was revoked for starting a brawl while drunk?
Maybe for carrying a weapon while drunk?
Maybe just because he committed assault (yes getting into a "fight" is an assault)?

An attacker armed with a deadly weapon to justifies lethal force. That being said nobody (except maybe you) is making argument that a firearm is a magic "shield" against all harm. Cops get killed every year and they are all armed. However ask 100 cops that because some cops die despite having a firearm if they would rather be armed or not armed.

A firearm is simply a tool and sometimes (not all the time) it gives you options.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Knives


Sober, trained off-duty cop who tried to disarm an individual with a knife. One of the truisms about a knife fight is even if you win you are gonna get cut! Bringing a gun to knife fight doesn't guarantee you will win either. Or as Jeff Cooper was wont to say, "Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like having a piano and thinking you are a musician."

Tueller Drill

This is as true today as it was 3000 years ago!

"Of every 100 men, 10 shouldn't even be there, 80 are nothing but targets, nine are real fighters... We are lucky to have them...

They make the battle. Ah, but the One, One of them is a Warrior... and He will bring the others back."

Heraclitus, Greek philosopher



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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
43. Turning your back to someone with a weapon (a knife is a deadly weapon)...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 09:58 PM by PavePusher
is VERY bad tactics. If they are within 20-25 feet, they can reach you before you can turn and get up to speed. Please see "Tueller Drill": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill

What state was this in? Many do not have a legal requirement to retreat if you are legally in a place.


Edit: Damnit, one-eye, you beat me.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
54. You may wish to research "imminent danger of death" a bit more.
If you are in a confrontation and the other other person pulls a knife and they are within 21 feet of you, you are in immminent danger of death. A healthy young person can cross that distance and stab you faster than you can reach for and draw a gun.

Having a gun is not a 100% guarantee that you will be safe, but it sure helps the odds. My wife has saved herself from being murdered because she had the permit and carried a gun. No shots fired, mugger took off running when he saw that she was armed.

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Spoonman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
57. Time for you to do better research....
Google "21ft rule".

Draw your weapon at the first hint of danger, and you now have the upper hand!
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #15
81. You are horribly misinformed.
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 09:49 AM by Statistical
Thank God you don't write the laws in any state in the union.

"If somebody is standing a distance away from you in a wide open public place with a knife, it is NOT reasonable force to pull out a gun and shoot them."

"some distance"? an athletic man can cover about 10 meters in 2-3 seconds.

Threatening with a deadly weapon (knife) justify lethal force.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Situational awareness
He did not practice that....EVERYONE whether they are armed or not should practice that...

Due to the nature of my work, I can find myself, in industrial areas of large cities very late at night. I am armed...Also, NO ONE, gets near me, without me knowing it..NO ONE...

I don't walk near corners of buildings, I don't walk near people...I stay close to my vehicle. NO ONE WALKS AROUND ME that I have not already judged as "little threat"..(family folk, older women, etc etc...) If I pull up and their are people where I need to be, I will wait till they clear out.

Even if I need to stop and let them pass, I will. Even if I need to go out of my way, I will..

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. actually, he should never have gone to the bar with the gun...
nor should he have engaged in a fight from the beginning. Guns and alcohol just don't mix (unless you're the bar tender or owner and need to protect the business).

Your husband's boss could have prevented all of that by just not going someplace like that.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
62. How was he supposed to "just ran away"?
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 07:21 PM by Euromutt
See, the way you describe it, we have your husband's boss facing the guy with the knife, and the knife-wielder's two buddies on the far side of the boss from the knife-wielder. Sounds to me like if the boss had decided to "just ran away" the knife-wielder's buddies could readily have tackled him before he got very far, with the exact same end result. Now, you might argue that if he'd tried to run, they'd have let him go, but that would seem an unwarranted assumption to me; these two guys didn't seem to have a problem with their buddy pulling a knife on your husband's boss, and that action escalated the situation to one of lethal force.

The idea, as you state in a later post, that your husband's boss "provoked" the knife-wielder's buddies by going for a his firearm simply doesn't fly. Once the first guy pulled a knife, as I said, he was the one who escalated the situation into one of lethal force. Other posters have already mentioned the "Tueller Drill," erroneously aka "the 21-foot rule." As this interview with Dennis Tueller http://armedcitizensnetwork.org/the-tueller-drill-revis... makes clear, Tueller never argued that 21 feet was some magic cut-off point, beyond which a knife-wielding individual does not pose a threat; rather, his point was that an attacker with a knife can readily cover 21 feet in less time (and we're talking fractions of a second here) than it takes the assailed party to draw a holstered firearm and shoot the knife-wielder. That doesn't mean that a guy at 25 or 30 feet doesn't present a threat, given that he can still close the intervening distance in about 2 seconds, rather than the 1.5 or less it takes to cover 21 feet.

As for why your husband's boss had his carry permit revoked, possible answers involve the fact that he was carrying in a bar (depending on which state you're in, but doing so is a gross misdemeanor in my own state of Washington), or that he was stupid enough to let himself get drawn into a fistfight while carrying a lethal weapon; it wasn't necessarily over trying to draw on a guy threatening him with a knife.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
72. Quit using logic here!!!!
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
83. Here is a little role playing that might actually enlighten you
Edited on Mon Jul-05-10 10:53 AM by Statistical
Modified Tueller drill. No guns or weapons required, just a game of tag. You could do this with a significant other and/or friend and it will take about a minute. For best results both persons should be relatively health/athletic. Of course this is if you would rather be informed and not just toss out straw men all day.

One person is "bad guy", one person is the "victim".
Place bad guy and victim 21 feet apart (doesn't need to be exact) facing each other.
When "bad guy" raises his hand and begins to advance (simulating drawing a knife) the victim attempts to turn around and run away. The "bad guy" attempts to tag the victim (simulated stab wound).

If you do this with an open mind you will be surprise as how the combination of inertia (turning around is very slow), reaction time, and speed humans can move in a straight line makes the encounter very fast.

Most likely your victim will get "tagged" before taking a step or two. You can reverse roles and the victim still loses. Now IF the two people have very different athletic ability the victim might "escape" however most violent criminals tend to be rather athletic. Still you can try again by shortening the distance from 21ft to say 15ft.

The point of the story is "running away" is often not successful.
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VermeerLives Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
17. "I was trying not to get killed."
And that's what it's all about.
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
37. I do that by
staying out of bars and getting into fist fights. In the old days I was in lots of bar fights. Not one of them that I could not have avoided.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. Bingo!
Like my self-defense teacher used to say, if you feel the absolute need to take your gun w/you somewhere then ask yourself if you're going to a safe place anyway. Some places just cannot be avoided but obviously a bar can be avoided. Some people can turn into complete confrontational assholes with just two beers and a peanut.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. I think maybe
The poster in 17 was referring to the lady in the convenience store. She's the one that said, "I was trying not to get killed."

Here, in Kentucky, carrying a gun, permit or no, into saloon will get you put in jail. Carrying a gun in a restaurant that happens to serve alcohol is OK.

A very long time ago, as young sergeant in Germany, I had a part time job as Master at Arms at the NCO Club. I learned then fighting with a drunk was hard work. They felt no pain and wouldn't quit until you damn near killed or crippled them! Since then, I studiously try to avoid drunks.

I don't mind a drink. They make some very fine Bourbon around here. But I don't want to get drunk. I did that once when I was seventeen and was so miserably sick I knew I had to get better to die.

So two things for certain, I most particularly want to avoid drunks when I am armed. And if I am having a drink, I am at home, the truck is in the garage and my pistol is in the safe.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. "...was so miserably sick I knew I had to get better to die."
Wow. I am so stealing that... (Been there, got the t-shirt, used it to clean up the floor...)
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
46. Exactly.
I love her determined attitude of doing business and being prepared and not acting like a victim. Good for her! It was good to see she kept it in her pocket so it was handy and obviously cocked and loaded, instead of in a purse and having to fumble with a lock and magazine.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #17
55. Ok, MY robbery story when I was 19 years old
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 04:18 PM by HockeyMom
To YOUNG to own a gun even if I had wanted to. I was working in a dress shop in NYC. It was a bright, sunny, very crowded Saturday afternoon. The owner (a friend and not much older than me) had two shops; one upstairs and one downstairs. She was working the store downstairs. I was ironing a dress in the back section of the store when a man with a knife came in and walked directly to the cash register, taking all the money out of drawer. I just stood there perfectly still with the steam iron still in my hand. My brain raced but I didn't move. Ok, he got his money so he will leave now? No. He looked straight at me, smiled, and started walking towards me. He must have thought I was an easy victim.

RAGE came over me. How DARE you. You got your damned money now get away from ME. I just yanked the iron out of the socket and threw it at him. It missed him but sprayed hot water all over and went through the store's plate glass window smashing the glass. The metal ironing board fell over. I never stopped SCREAMING at him. All this noise woke up the owner's Doberman who got up barking, snarling, and running towards him.

Do you really think this robber stuck around? He high tailed it out of there. When he ran out, I did too still screaming. People on the street saw me screaming and I learned later that a few tried to run after him. Obviously, the owner, who was downstairs, heard all this noise from upstairs and KNEW something must be wrong and called the cops.

Do you know what the she said to me? "I don't care about the MONEY". "I am only happy that YOU were not harmed". Do you seriously think if I had had a gun I would have shot him to prevent him from stealing MONEY like that woman in your story????? It's just MONEY for damned sake. If he had ran out of that store after taking the money, I would not have lifted a finger to prevent the money being stolen, even if it had been MY MONEY.

This happened over 40 years ago. Given the same situation, I would still do the same thing today as I did back then.

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Did you look at the surveillance video?
The lady and another person tried to barricade the door and he beat it down.

They lady who shot the robber bought the gun AFTER a robbery just up the street where the robber killed the clerk anyway, even though she had done everything she asked.

In your case the hot iron and the Doberman worked. In the other lady's case shooting the robber worked. Turns out the robber in this case had robbed a flower shop the morning before and beat the florist.

The truth is that every robbery is a crap shoot for the victim. You can do what they want and hope they don't kill you. You can also have a psychopath where the money is secondary, what gets them off is inducing terror in their victims. The two extremes are easy. Give them the money and they leave. No reason to resist. Do what they want, they plan to kill you any way, so what do have to lose by resisting?

Imagine the guy trying to grab you and stuff you in his car in a parking lot. If you resist then it might be risky and he might do bad things, but what do you think he has planned for when he drives off to some lonely woods and has you all tied up.........

I am glad she and the person with her were not hurt. Like she told the reporter, she was just trying to stay alive.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. If the iron had connected there would have been no crashing window
and a second later , the knife is at your throat .
That fan story was cool too, everybody likes demolishing appliances .
Here's a guy that used his head , and a refrigerator .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvxIxpTZy0E
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. You were lucky. You make the mistake of assuming that everyone else will be as lucky.
For some criminals, a screaming victim is a turn-on. You had the barking snarling, charging doberman to back you up. It wasn't your screaming that sent him running. Calling the cops was no help, as they couldn't get there until it was all over.

When he entered the store with a drawn knife and began to steal the money, you would have been legally justified (In most states) in shooting him and claiming self-defense. By his act of holding a deadly weapon while committing a crime, he is threatening your life. He has declared his intent. You don't have to wait until he starts stabing and slicing you before you defend yourself.

BTW - It was a mistake to throw the hot iron. You threw away an excellent defensive weapon. If he had come within contact range you could have pressed the hot iron against whatever you could find. If he had tried to grab the iron to take it away from you he would have grabbed hot steel and quickly let it go. A hot iron pressed to his crotch would have changed his mind about rape.
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HockeyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. This was the first instance but not the only
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 07:12 PM by HockeyMom
Again, from the mouths of the NYPD to you. They told my husband that if you are going to shoot a robber, even in your own house, you better shoot to kill or you are going to have to answer a whole lot of questions.

You see my, husband is a gun owner. At one point in time, he owned about 25 guns (legally) in NYC. Oppressive gun control laws in NYC? Yeah, right. He used to live in fear. No, not fear of his life, but fear that somebody was going to break into our house when we weren't home, and STEAL his guns. It drove me crazy.

The second instance was when somebody tried to break into our basement window at night. My husband immediately went to the closet to get his gun. While he was getting his gun out, I walked over to the window and pushed out the metal window fan which crashed two stories down to the concrete. The guy ran away. The robber was gone before my husband could load his gun. He didn't keep it loaded because we had very young children at home then. Speaking of kids:

I could also tell you about the teenage boy who treatened to take his Dad's gun and shoot my daughter. My daughter got a restraining order against him, yet he still came to our house. My daughter tried to physically retrain her Dad from shooting the kid. It was HORRIBLE. SHE made the kid go away. The boy ended up getting arrested for bringing his Dad's gun to school. He made the mistake of bragging to other kids he had the gun. They told the Principal and the cops were there in no time flat. I suppose the PRINCIPAL should have been armed and taken the kid out? Right?

I could tell about another of her schoolmates, a cop's son (17), who got his Dad's police pistol and played Russian Roulette with a group of his friends. His girlfriend blew out her brains. The school had to bring in a lot of counselors over that one.

You want stories of guns? Oh, I have MORE of them. Most of them are not what you, or the NRA are going to like.

Yes, you have your right to your guns, but I also feel the OTHER side of the story needs to be told; not just the NRA's promo pieces.

For what it's worth, my daugther is now in her 30s and works as a Security Guard. She doesn't carry at gun at work and doesn't own one personally.

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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. You were lucky - again.
My wife is alive because she had a gun on her person. She has used her handgun in self-defense. No shots fired as the mugger ran away when he saw that she was armed.

Yes, there are bad people who will misuse guns, just as there are idiots that shouldn't drive. Do not restrict my rights because of what someone else may do.

New York has rather different laws than Texas. Here we have the Castle Doctrine Laws.

While I hope that I never have to shoot someone, if I ever do I will be aiming for center-mass and firing multiple shots until the threat is neaturalized.

Since we don't have any children at home, we keep our guns loaded. And we have carry permits and we do carry.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
23. Good for her.
And fuck Daley, Fenty, Brady, Helmke, Bloomberg and the rest.

They would rather see this women robbed and dead.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #23
48. "They would rather see this women robbed and dead"
Yes, they were really hoping for that.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #48
51. Why else would they take away the right to defend yourself?
They prefer the serfs be unarmed and dead rather then give-up a bit of control.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Next thing you know, theyll be sending gun owners to concentration camps
oh, the horror
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. I like your avatar
I liked your old sigline better. not that it matters. just saying is all.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #48
64. It is a foreseeable consequence
They may not have actively hoped for such an outcome, but it is certainly one they accept as a consequence of their firearm policies. Of course, it's quite easy to accept unpleasant consequences when they happen to others; mayors are quite happy to accept armed security details (at the taxpayer's expense, it might be added). The supposed justification for this is the risk of assassination mayors of large cities face, but the last time a mayor of Chicago was assassinated was 1933, and there's a very real possibility that the assassin meant to shoot FDR, who was standing next to Mayor Cermak at the time. An alternative hypothesis is that Cermak was involved with organized crime, and was assassinated in retaliation for (unsuccessfully) attempting to have Frank Nitti (then head of the Chicago Outfit) murdered (extrajudicially).

Be that as it may, there is a certain measure of responsibility, even culpability, to be placed on the shoulders of someone instrumental in implementing a particular policy when that policy yields foreseeable, if undesirable, results.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
70. How about I post three more stories about kids dying in accidents?
Why post this shit?
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #70
75. Post what ever you want in accordance with DU rules.
It is posted as an example of why we have the right to keep and bear arms and why CHLs are important. But you knew that already didn't you.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. You are funny! I forward your shit to a lot of people. Keep it up!
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Glad to be of service. I'm sure you'll love the banna nut flavoring.
And regarding keeping "it up", Thank you.
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KansasVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-04-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Sure, sometimes people reading stuff like yours is all people need. Like reading freeperville posts.
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-05-10 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Considering the steady decline in support for gun "control"

the more likely scenario is that the irrational drivel that you and your ilk continuously spout has pushed folks away from your "cause".
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