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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:25 AM
Original message
Texas: Teen shoots would-be burglary suspect
http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/2010/06/30/texas-teen-sh... /

Two would-be burglars are in police custody thanks to the quick actions of a 15-year-old.

From upstairs, the 15-year-old who was home with his 12-year-old sister heard the breaking glass and grabbed his fathers automatic (I'm assuming it is really a semi-auto)rifle. The burglary was soon over.

There were some questions about whether hed (the father) be liable for the shooting since his son had easy access to the weapon, but ABC13s legal expert says that the 15-year-olds right to protect his home and sister trumps all child firearm access laws.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. I have to put "would-be burglary suspect" up near "Acquitted child molester"
In my Journalism Hall of Shame.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Yep - I'd have been tossed out of HIGH SCHOOL for that
kind of idiocy.

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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. I don't think it's as bad as all that, but it is redundant.
If you're talking about "suspects," there's no need to say "would-be." The only exceptions I could think of would be if the people were being charged with conspiracy or something. And even then, you'd say, for example, they were suspected of conspiracy to commit murder, not would-be murder suspects.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Not just redundant, it's inaccurate IMO
It sounds as if someone was attempting to become a suspect, rather than attempting to commit a burglary.
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Good point. It can definitely be read like that.
In any case, poor form on the copy editor's part.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. Rejected first draft script for Home Alone? nt
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. Oh, the gun lobby loves this kind of junk.
Sounds to me the kid could have stopped the burglars without shooting them, but that's what we've become -- Arm everyone; play judge, jury and God; shoot em the drive way or whatever.

It's one thing when burglars enter the bedroom -- I'd empty a few mags in them too at that point, or pull my machete.

But all the kid had to do was shoot in the floor and the burglars would have fled (and no I wasn't there, but neither were you).

I'll bet there was nothing in that house worth killing someone, but again that's what we've become. I have neighbors who'd shoot someone rolling a yard with toilet paper or trying to steal the pink flamingo out of their front yard.

The same people who applaud this kid's action likely support carrying in public too. Strap a gun to everyone's leg, make em watch a video, give em a permit, and see how straight they shoot if by some very small chance they run into a situation where they really need a gun.

Just my opinion, so don't go ballistic.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Is that like the free speech lobby or right to a fair trial lobby?
you guys are still stuck in the Orwellian language of the deceased fun control movement in the US. I dont care if you live in the shittiest trailer or biggest mansion you have a right to kill a person breaking into you occupied home.

The lesson is dont break into homes, try to rape women, or commit violent crimes against people or you just might die in the process. Very simple logic.

If they were busy working rather than breaking in they would be just fine. Sounds like a work related injury for the two morons. To bad the kid did not have a shotgun.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Shotgun or not
The kid showed a large amount of courage. He fired 3 rounds and got 3 hits, not bad under the duress of protecting himself and his sister from an unknown intruder. Their Father is a constable, he heard about it on his police radio!

Well done!!!


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Agree, the kid did the right thing.
glad no one who matters was injured in the incident.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. There is no shoot to warn or shoot to wound. If you do this you are
probably going up on unlawful use of deadly force charges. You cannot USE a deadly weapon and claim to be trying to use less than lethal force. Legally it does not work that way.

If you break into a home in Texas you are presumed to be up to very bad things. You are not required to retreat to another room as it is the BAD PERSON that is the one that is not supposed to be there.

There may not be anything there worth "killing someone" for unless you consider the virtue of the 12 year old girl. Unless you do not consider it worth using deadly force to prevent. But of course you look at it in the wrong time line in my opinion. It was the bad guy that decided long before the shooting that there was something in that house worth dieing for.

Yep, I do have a license to carry a concealed firearm in Texas. No I have NEVER advocated that everyone do so and I challenge you to find a post here on D.U. where someone does. You also seriously lack any knowledge of what it takes to get a CHL in Texas but you have a 1st amendment right to speak and show your ignorance. You also show extreme ignorance of the hit percentage of citizens, especially compared to the hit percentage of police or criminals.

Unfortunately you have confused your opinion with many facts that contradict it. Please learn a bit of what you speak about before pontificating.
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57_TomCat Donating Member (527 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. I beg to differ...
you said ...I'll bet there was nothing in that house worth killing someone, but again that's what we've become. ...

Two innocent lives in that house are very much worth a lot more than the life of some criminal burglars.

I was not "there" but I have been other places in similar circumstances. The boy did good.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Yea, but the burglars likely would have turned tail as soon as they knew someone was home.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 08:52 PM by Hoyt
But a lot of packers live for the day when they can play cowboy, judge, jury, God and shoot somebody who likely would have run the minute they knew someone was home.

Again, I have no problem with shooting or using a machete on someone who walks through the bedroom door. But that doesn't appear the case here.

This kid did what his dad trained him to do -- shoot first, whether the perps are armed or not.

"The gun in everybody's pants" crowd loves it.

Sorry, it doesn't send chills down my spine.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. " likely would have turned tail as soon as they knew someone was home. " -- Riiiiiiight..
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Nice list. You found any evidence the burglars were armed?

Shooting an unarmed person in your house might be legal, but sure doesn't rate all the accolades the gun lobby will bestow.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Are you willing to risk your kids' lives that they weren't? n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Who cares if they were "unarmed"?
Hands and feet are lethal weapons.
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Trachimbrod Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. You might have set a real record there...3 strawmen, 5 hyperbolics,
2 non sequiturs, 4 fallacious assumptions and 2 mixed metaphors all wrapped up in one 'opinion'.

ROFL
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. You have to be like that to deal with a well financed gun lobby that relies on money and fear.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:54 AM by Hoyt
Shoot, this whole thing started with an article from "The Armed Citizen" that many here follow to see how many people got shot the day before by fellow gun toters. There's even an advertisement on the home page for a video you guys can use to debate those who oppose widespread gun toting/worship in America.

You can't be rational with folks like.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Since I can not reliably read the intentions of criminals...
and they are notorious for lying about it when questioned, I can not assume that a criminal wishes to only "take my stuff" and leave me unharmed. This is, in fact, not the case entirely too often. I have no crystal ball, my precognition and telepathy were faulty at birth, and I have no built-in lie detector. I must assume and be prepared for the worst, because that is all I can reliably expect.

Also, my "stuff" is worth shooting a criminal for. Large portions of my life were spent making, earning and maintaining my belongings. When a criminal takes them, s/he is taking part of my life. I will resist that. Don't like it? Start a rehabilitation program in your area, for the safety of the criminals.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. I have some nice guitars and things, but I'm not going to shoot an unarmed man to protect them.


I guess you feel differently.

Now if the kid and his sister were really threatened, that's different. But from what I've read, these two juveniles would have run. Of course, some would shoot em in the back citing Texas law as justification.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. There is no such thing as "unarmed".
Hands and feet are lethal weapons. If an "unarmed" person broke into my home while I was present, I would order them to leave. If they did so, fine, I would, of course, not shoot them. If they did not leave, or indicated violent intent, they might leave horizontally rather than vertically... but they would leave.

I have no moral or legal obligation to stand by while they "peacefully" take my belongings. I have no moral or legal obligation to confront them "unarmed" myself, thus greatly increasing my personal risk of injury or death. I have every legal and moral Right to make them cease and desist, at the least possible risk to myself or my family.

If a criminal doesn't want to risk injury or death.... don't be a criminal.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
17. Shoot into the floor?
Thankfully he wasn't THAT stupid!

If someone comes breaking into my house it's safe to assume they aren't there to give me free lottery tickets. This kid protected his family and that is a GOOD thing. HIS life and his family's life is more valuable than some criminal who invades their home.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Burglars break into houses everyday and run when they hear a noise.

I think these guys would have too. Again, if they had gone into the room where the boy and girl were, I'd applaud the kid. Based on what I know so far, and no mention that the burglars were armed, I think the kid overreacted (I'm not advocating doing anything to him though).

Even worse are those who support shooting when there are other options. That is one reason I am so opposed to those who want to carry in public. I don't think most care about other options, and they aren't trained well enough to be pulling their guns in a highly charged situation. I know, the cowboys think they are and can handle any situation (well, as long as they have their weapons).
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Define Trained.
That is like "educated". A person could have been to a 1 day course at the gun shop or could be a honest to god veteran Operator with actual CQB combat experience. Not everyone is bubba and very few are Seal Team 6, most are in the middle.

I met plenty of people in the military I did not trust with firearms (get that fucking muzzle out of my face) and have seen the most unsafe firearm handling ever by a person who happened to be a police officer. (trained no doubt)

The kid acted reasonably in the situation. Training is up to the operator not the peanut gallery.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. It's not shooting targets, watching videos, playing cowboy, dreaming about how they will be a hero.

I think police do have the best training. They are reminded often not to put citizens in danger and not to play cowboy.

If I'm out somewhere -- and in the extremely unlikely event a situation occurs -- I don't think someone who loves guns to the point of obsession is going to handle the situation right. They have no training to know when to keep that dang gun in their pants, they don't know how to handle the adrenaline, anger, hero envy, etc.

If the burglars came toward the kids, he acted reasonably. If he went downstairs to shoot them to save the big screen TV, he did not. First, if the burglars had been armed, he increased the chances he would be harmed. That would have put his sister in jeopardy. This worked out well for the kids -- and I'm glad. The next time it might not.

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. Your biases are rapidly approaching bigotry.
And your projections are keeping close pace.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. And if those kids break into a cop's home, you can be damn sure
they will be leaving in body bags.

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. Actually, I think most police would have handled the situation differently
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:43 PM by Hoyt
My father-in-law would not have shot an unarmed teenager in a whole other section of the house. Now,he dang sure would have kicked their rears and locked em up. But, he would not have shot unarmed burglars.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. Then your father-in-law would be dead...
because there are 12 yr. old's breaking into homes with loaded weapons and prepared to use them if they get scared.

And if he hesitated for a second it's his own damn fault. Kids should not be committing crimes, especially ADULT crimes which will get them killed graveyard dead.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Police apprehend armed criminals everyday without shooting them.

Of course, they are trained not to shoot until necessary. Sounds like you have not been.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. And they kill unarmed innocent people too
so whats your point. Seen that video of the bart cop shooting that unarmed man?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. "Of course, they are trained not to shoot until necessary"
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


Pull the other one, it's got bells on...!
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. And you'd be wrong in what you think....
The boy's father was reluctantly convinced to a radio interview on the Michael Berry show, and his opinion is that he would have done EXACTLY as did his son. The burglars in this case attempted to first kick in the front door. When that didn't work, they circled the house and attempted to kick in the backdoor. When that still didn't work, they went back to the front of the house and broke out a window and climbed INTO the house.

Texas law states that in a home invasion, the home owner/resident can presume their life is in immediate danger. There is no duty to retreat, the intruder is completely in the wrong and has taken their life into their own hands.

The 15 year old young man who was defending himself and his 12 year sister from imminent harm. After shooting the first subject, the second subject reportedly yelled to the kid, "Don't shoot!" The kid shouted back that he wouldn't, but they needed to get out of the house - which is what the second assailant did, and then he reached back through the broken window, and dragged his accomplice out of the window.......

There is no single thing the kid did that I can fault. If the one assailant dies, his friend will be charged with his murder. All in all, a good thing.



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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #41
48. Sounds like the sound of chambering a shell would have worked as well as blasting away.

The burglars would have left as soon as they knew someone was home.

Just because it's legal to shoot someone on your home doesn't mean you have to if the situation could be handled differently . . . . . .unless you are just looking for an excuse to blast away.

I would be very surprised if the boy's father did not support him. Nor am I in any way suggesting the kid should be punished. I just don't think he should be held out as an example of proper behavior for shooting an unarmed teenager who likely would have left with a little prodding.

But, then, I no longer read the American Rifleman, listen to the NRA, or routinely check The Armed Citizen or the many other similar Web sites that promote shooting; packing in public; playing police, judge, jury and God.

I think there are better solutions. And I think we are just raising a generation of kids who will see guns as the solution because their daddy packed and shot targets that resembled people.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #48
82. You seem to be quite sure of your ability to predict the actions of criminals.
Can you do lottery numbers as well? 'Cause that would give my more faith in your claims.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #24
39. You realize police shoot targets, watch videos
and "play cowboy" at the same ranges I shoot at. They follow similar doctrine I learned in the military more than 10 years ago. The only difference is SOME departments use force on force training with guns prepared to fire "practice" ammo which hurts when you are shot.

They use elaborate mockups to train with. They dont have a combat psychologist there telling them how to handle adrenaline. There are many videos that show police doing the wrong thing under pressure.

I had CQB MOUT instruction and my takeaway was the 80% loss rate to be expected in clearing structures. It is shitty and dangerous work. And that included tools not available to me in real life now (grenades, carbines, and 6 man entry teams, and all kinds of other things to kill bad guys).

Bottom line I do NOT want to be in any confrontation with anyone, period. If forced all the training requires fast , violent, and overwhelming use of force to kill the bad guys. Shoot first, hit first, live.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. "Burglars break into houses everyday and run when they hear a noise."
And all too often... they don't. Unless your precognition is better than mine, Monday morning quarterbacking is both immoral and irrelevent.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. See, that's the problem. Too many gun "lobbyists" think their life is on the line all the time.

Burglars break-in during the day, to avoid people/confrontation. They are like "cats" -- They run at the first sign someone is home.

Again, if they come where you are after making hearing a noise, setting off an alarm, etc., then you better be prepared to shoot. That does not appear the case here, notwithstanding what The Armed Citizen would like us to believe.

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. Children scare off burglar (without shooting him).

A little girl and her 12 year old brother, scare off burglar.

http://www.fortbendnow.com/2010/03/22/44675

There are many more stories like that.
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. "They are like "cats" -- They run at the first sign someone is home"- except when they don't
The term you are struggling mightily to avoid is home invasion, and I repeat what I said in the other thread:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 11:41 PM by friendly_iconoclast
Too many times
...a teenage boy, a son, a brother, a child,...
doesn't stop with making off with an Xbox and decides to add assault, rape, and/or murder to his repetoire. There've been more than enough links posted here to accounts of such crimes for you to pretend they don't happen.

There is no way in hell that I will ever accept that someone in their home must rely upon the doubtful mercy of some violent
felon because someone else feels bad for the little snowflakes...


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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
32. Thankfully YOU don't get to decide for ME
how I will protect *anyone* who dares set foot into our home without our permission. If you want to invite every hoodlum in the world to come and ransack your place, rape your family members and kill you without repercussion, BE MY GUEST.

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You guys must really be scared.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 03:38 PM by Hoyt
Get a grip -- it happens like that so seldom. But, this is a free country and one can live in utter fear.

I do have a little more understanding for a women who feels the need to pack.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thankfully its not up to you.
who has abortions, who can speak about politics, or who can LEGALLY carry a gun. Police are trained to do certain things. They are NOT DEFENSIVE. Police use weapons in an OFFENSIVE role in some situations. A felony traffic stop or warrant is nor a defensive act. Nor is a ST grabbing a guy or clearing a house in Iraq. The training used by police and military operators is not applicable in many situations.

Fear is a canard used by the control folks to classify gun owners. Like ignorant was used to justify poll taxes for blacks. Its a hollow position.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #36
40. What else but "fear" would make you pack a gun in public? Is it a fashion statement?

And, I'm kind of like a few of the other posters -- what's this junk equating not wanting every Tom, Dick and Harriet packing a gun in public to racism? That is absolute bull.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Are people who have a fire extinguisher in their cars afraid of fire?
What is it about being prepared for an unlikely but potentially deadly situation that makes some people assume fear?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. A fire extinguisher won't kill an innocent bystander when someone plays cowboy.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. That's not an answer, that's a dodge. n/t
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Try this: If you have to carry a gun into public -- say Chuck E Cheese -- you are probably afraid.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Another dodge.. going to shoot for the hattrick?
Is someone who carries a fire extinguisher in their car afraid of fire?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. Attempt #3 --


When the odds of ever needing a gun in public are .00000000001 (rounded way up), what else but fear makes one pack?

I guess some toters might just be irrational, but that is even worse than "fear." Admittedly, a few people might be in situations where packing makes some sense -- like the lady on here who has been attacked. But, on whole, I just can't see it.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Actually, my raw odds in any particular year are about 1 in 300.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 06:38 PM by GreenStormCloud
You pulled .000,000,000,01, (One in ten billion) out of your ass. For that to be true there would be only one case every two years, globally. Since the U.S. has a violent crimes rate of a litle over a million violent crime per year, the odds are much greater than your one in ten billion.

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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. To put that into perspective
Every year, there are more than 500,000 residential fires serious enough to be reported to fire departments.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/556.html

And consider that most states mandate a fire extinguisher and smoke alarm in all apartments.

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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #55
60. I think you need to convert to odds where your having a gun down your pants does any good.

I'll stand with my calculation, rectal extraction or not.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. My wife has already saved her life by having a gun on her person.
It was about five years ago. She was about to be mugger, and being a frail woman it is unlikely she would have survived. When the mugger saw she had a gun, he ran away.

If you want to discuss in the guns forum you will do far better to use actual facts instead of made up stuff.

Carrying a gun must be used with situational awareness. A gun is not a magical item. If you aren't aware of what is going on around you and allow yourself to be surprised it will be of less help to you.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. First off, I'm glad your wife is safe. I don't know your wife,
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 11:09 PM by Hoyt
but I have lost mine and if, in fact, a gun really saved your wife's life I'm all for it.

I am wondering how she knew she was about to be mugged?

You sound a bit paranoid (as I am sure I do too) with all this "if you aren't aware what is going on around you" but I don't know where you live. Man, if I had to be that wary/afraid/careful/obsessed/whateveryyouwanttocallit I'd move or something before sticking a gun down my pants and living in that kind of "fear". But, that is me. I'm not in your shoes.

I still believe, increasingly arming people and applauding The Armed Citizen every time they shoot someone is not going to improve our society, and I fear the next generation will be worse in this respect. In a few generations, shooting someone will be like stomping on a spider in this country. That's sad.

In the meantime, stay safe.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #65
83. Shooting a criminal in the act, in this country...
does not appear, to me, to have become any less or more accepted over some 300 years.

Do you have any evidence to the contrary, or are you once again exercising your precognition?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. Please answer the question.
Is someone who keeps a fire extinguisher handy 'afraid' of a fire?

quoting myself from a previous discussion:

In the US there are 350,000 residential fires every year, and there are ~105,000,000 homes. Odds of a home fire? 1 in 300.

http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Fire-Preve...

According to the DOJ, the rate of being the victim of a violent crime is 20 / 1,000 overall (as high as 27 / 1,000 for some groups like african americans.) That comes out to 1 in 50.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=1743
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. AND you'll note that most (if not all) states mandate that all apartments be
equipped with both a fire extinguisher and smoke alarm.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. They don't mandate guns because guns in an apartment are an accident waiting to happen.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Myth: Accidental gun fatalities are a serious problem
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5...

Fact: Firearm misuse causes only a small number of accidental deaths in the U.S.270 For
example, compared to accidental death from firearms, you are:
Four times more likely to burn to death or drown
17 times more likely to be poisoned
19 times more likely to fall
And 53 times more likely to die in an automobile accident

Fact: In 2001, there were only 65 accidental gun deaths for children under age 13. About
11 times as many children die from drowning.

Fact: In 1993, there were 1,334 drownings and 528 firearm-related accidental deaths from ages 0-19. Firearms outnumber pools by a factor of over 30:1. Thus, the risk of drowning in a pool is nearly 100 times higher than from a firearm-related accident for everyone, and nearly 500 times for ages 0-5.

Fact: Medical mistakes kill 400,000 people per year the equivalent of almost three fully loaded
Boeing 747 jet crashes per day or about 286 times the rate of all accidental firearm deaths. This translates into 1 in 6 doctors causing an accidental death, and 1 in 56,666 gun owners doing the same.

Fact: Only 3% of gun deaths are from accidents, and some insurance investigations indicate that many of these may not be accidents after all.

Fact: Around 2,000 patients each year six per day are accidentally killed or injured in hospitals by registered nurses.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
67. Yea, but it you live next to or under the gun obsessed,

your odds of your neighbor accidentally discharging the weapon while obsessed is much greater.

In fact, I had a big, permitted gun "enthusiast" roommate years ago who pulled a gun on me drunk. As I ejected a shell after taking it from him, he was still yelling how it wasn't loaded, and he was a responsible gun toter.

Plus if you run into your neighbor going to your car, you are stuck listening to your neighbor run on and on about how he'd handle a situation (that will likely never occur in the rational world). Then, he'll start talking about the different loads he uses to prepare for a situation, how big his new gun is, etc. I've move from apartments for that very reason.

In any event, we need a Web site that posts how many people -- like the little girl cited earlier - chased off a burglar without shooting them. But, you guys aren't interested in hearing that kind of stuff.

Gun obsession is not good for us. Again, my opinion.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #67
69. I leave in the realm of reality - not denial.
I've given you FACTS that "your odds of your neighbor accidentally discharging the weapon" are simply wrong. The facts do not bear out your anecdotes.

I'm not too sure what your definition of "responsible" gun owner is but clearly it is not the same as mine.

Please take you problems with social interaction to a professional - or your bar tender, which ever you prefer.

Please feel free to start any web site you feel is needed.

Living in reality is good for society. Reality is there are bad people out there that do bad things. Being prepared is not obsession.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
84. Ah, I see now.
Your experiences (undocumented, by the way), are indicative of how things are for everyone.

Interesting how that isn't true, eh?
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Common sense, like carrying jumper cables
all this may issue permit, buy insurance, and drive out of chicago to own a gun impacts people who cant buy around it. If I hand a suitcase to a lawyer full of cash and tell him to get me a permit to carry concealed in Chicago, it will happen. If I am a poor black security guard in south chicago, I wont get shit. Because I cant pay to play. Gun laws are all about race. The canard that they actually impact the 80% of shootings in chicago killing blacks is a joke.

I carry a gun because I can and am legally able to. I probably have more "training" than most law enforcement officers and certainly shoot more often and train in better places than most.

I carry concealed so it has zero impact on anyone around me.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Oh, sure, you are trained better than law enforcement.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 04:55 PM by Hoyt
You ought to meet my neighbor. He thinks he's Barney Fife too. On second thought, that is unfair. Barney carried his gun unloaded -- not that I would recommend that.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
64. He probably is. I know I probably am as a Class B limited IPSC competitor.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 09:01 PM by Hoopla Phil
Myth: Citizens are too incompetent to use guns for protection

Fact: About 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person - about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person. The odds of a defensive gun user killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.279 And that is with citizens using guns to prevent crimes
almost 2,500,000 times every year.

Fact: Most firearm accidents are caused by people with various forms of poor self control. These include alcoholics, people with previous criminal records, multiple driving accidents, and other risky behaviors.

http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/5.1/gun-facts-5...

edited for spelling.



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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. First, I'll prefer to rely on the police to enforce the law on the streets. Second,

the first line in your link's Purpose pretty much tells you what that group is all about -- "The goal of Gun Facts is to provide a quick reference guide for civil libertarians on gun
control issues." It gets worse after that. Kind of like listening to the "Limbaugh" of the Gun Party or something.

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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. Yeah, calling 911 worked so well for this person
A West Covina woman who was on the phone talking with 911 dispatchers about a possible burglary was shot and killed Wednesday morning, apparently while the crime was in progress, Los Angeles County sheriff's officials said.
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/20/local/me-burgla...

Me, I'd rather it be more like this
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/08/donna-jackson-...


Can you disprove my linked source on the facts? Can you? I don't think so.
Reminds me of the lawyer adage:
When the law is on your side - argue the law
When the facts are on your side - argue the facts
When neither are on your side - attack the credibility of the witnesses.

I see what your strategy is.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. Pregnant mum chases off burglar.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 01:05 AM by Hoyt
http://www.news.com.au/national/pregnant-mum-tammy-matt...

Maybe some day you guys will quit worshiping those that pack and shoot to kill when other alternatives might work.

I don't really monitor such things on a daily basis, but I think Australia - a country of tough folks -- has all but banned guns. But I could be wrong. Point is, shooting first might get some off, but there are other ways to go.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. You can go that rout if you want. I will stay prepared.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 01:10 AM by Hoopla Phil
Have you seen the violent crime increases in Australia since their ban? Oh wait, you confess to not educating yourself on such matters.

"get some off"??? Why do try to offend people with such comments?

Fact is, guns can and often are used to SAVE innocent lives. I thank the founders for the protections of the 2A. You can live your life as you choose. I will do the same.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. There is considerable debate about your claim regarding Australia.

Of course, not among the NRA, The Armed Citizen, Smith & Wesson, etc.

As to the 2A, gun advocates always leave out the "well regulated militia" part. Truth is, our founding fathers were lame in many ways -- allowed slavery, prohibited women from voting, endorsed killing Native Americans for their land, talked of freedom/liberty and then went home and beat/raped their slaves and wives, etc. So . . . . . . .

As to my comments -- if you have ever been to a gun show, you'll know exactly why I said that.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #75
78. Ok, you've been tossing out things and have been treated rather well
in you lack of citing your "facts" but it's time to back up what your are saying. Please cite where Australia's violent crime rate has gone down since the gun ban - or even where it has remained the same. You first brought up Australia as an example so lets see the numbers.

The "well regulated militia" meme has thoroughly been examined but for some reason the people that want to ban and/or regulate guns out of existence keep hanging on to it with greater and greater desperation. It is currently being discussed here.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Please join, or just read and maybe learn what/who the "well regulated militia" are. Oh here is a clue, what is the definition(s) of faggot? What is it's most common usage today? What was it's most common usage 100 years ago? The definitions of words can change over time, to understand what is meant today of words written prior to the 20th century you need to use dictionaries of that time. You could also read the federalist papers for a little education on the subject - it has been discussed in the DU thread I linked to.

So where did gun shows come into this?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #78
80. OK, let's take "Militia" in historical sense -- then, you guys are left with carrying muzzleloaders.

Personally, I think it's quite a stretch to put private citizens wanting to carry a pistol in their pants in the "well regulated militia".

But lets accept that historical perspective for a moment.

Then, the definition of "arms" has to be taken in the historical perspective.

In that case, I will support confiscating all the sexy weapons gun toters covet and replacing them with muzzleloaders. Then, we can watch toters and criminals walk stiff-legged like Chester from Gun Smoke.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. I'll take your changing of arguments and failure to provide any evidence for your arguments
as a concession. So on to the new points you bring up.

The whole idea of the 2A only applying to arms of the day when the 2A was written has been well debated, and well debunked time and time again. Read the "Heller" decisions footnotes on the issue for good direction on where to go to educate yourself. (I can provide a link if you cannot find the Heller decision on the internet but I have confidence you can) You can also use the search feature right here on D.U. if you prefer.

On a more reasoned basis let us apply your reasoning to the 1A. Does that mean that newspapers and leaflets must be printed only on Gutenberg presses or their equivalent? Does that mean that there is no free speech protection over the internet?

No and it would be silly in the extreme to suggest such. This is where the "living breathing document" philosophy comes in. The Constitution can be adapted to new times and new technologies. Hell, for a hoot check out in Heller where the M-16 (a real select-fire assault weapon) is singled out as being particularly suited to current militia service. It has a lot to do with commonality of equipment ie. "regulated".

I do find it very telling that you have admitted to supporting confiscation of weapons from American citizens though. Are you a member of Daly's staff?
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. And you post that via the interwebz?!
Chutzpas, they name is "Hoyt".
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:36 AM
Response to Reply #49
74. Police are notorious for a less than 50% hit rate.
Some departments, 50% would be a crowning improvement.
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #74
76. Yes, becasuse those situations are highly charged. I doubt untrained gun folks do better.


When a toter pulls a gun out of his pants, chances are it's not going to be a situation where you get to aim and squeeze. Heck, toters in that situation are likely to shoot themselves too.
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Pavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Like this officer who shoots himself in front of a classroom full of kids?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. You got anything to compare to Christopher Bryan Speight who killed 8 people and had a valid permit?

I can cite more, but you are not interested in that.

As long as gun toters think they are trained better than the police, we have a problem.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #79
86. Why would you cite someone who sucessfully murdered 8 people as an example of poor marksmanship?
What an odd equivalency.

By the way, even trained police officers break the law sometimes. One guy with a gun (permit irrelevant, he murdered them inside his home) goes nuts and shoots his family, and you think that's evidence that concealed carry permit holders are untrained, immature, and likely to shoot themselves? I don't know what you see on TV, but I carry in a holster, not my pants, I am not Plaxico Burress. I hit what I'm aiming at, and have never in my life had a negligent discharge, ever, anywhere. I do not intend to start.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Such anger -- you should not be toting with that attitude.
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 05:46 PM by Hoyt

Or maybe it is why you need to pack.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. And you...
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 08:29 PM by PavePusher
should not be posting with your level of ignorance, projection and false assumptions.

Toodles!
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #88
90. What you are experiencing is called projection.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Really scared?
First, I am a woman and live in Jacksonville, FL. The crime in this area is rampant, persistent and the cops and sheriff's office have made it crystal clear that citizens are ON OUR OWN to protect ourselves. The bad guys have decided that the pickings are better in nicer neighborhoods now and they have no problem doing an armed home invasion in broad daylight. NO PROBLEM.

Secondly, I don't live in fear but love the life I have w/my family and feel a responsibility to them to stay alive, EVEN IF THAT COSTS A BAD GUY THEIR LIFE. I have been attacked before long ago and don't wish that upon anyone.


And lastly, I live in the real world with real people and love them fully. But your attitude shows how weak and naive you see the world and I sincerely hope that nobody is depending upon your foolishness to keep them safe. If so, I hope you have a good will in place.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #38
47. Excellent.
:toast:
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #20
73. That's nice, so at the very least, the homeowner gets to buy a new window
and no suspects to detain for compensation in court? I bet that's fun on minimum wage.


In fact that happened to me once, the broken car window in the middle of winter was far, far worse than the loss of the 20$ car stereo. On 4.10 an hour, that was a real 'pain in the ass'. If only I could have afforded insurance.

Screw thieves. As long as people aren't executing them, I don't care.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
56. Your are willing to bet someone else's life for your beliefs.
The fact is that when a home invader breaks into your home, you don't know whether or not they are armed. A home invader is not a mere burglar. A burglar attempts to be stealthy to avoid a confrontation. A home invader doesn't care if he makes noise as he is prepared to deal with anyone inside. That is a huge difference.

If you try to give a home invader a fair warning, you will have surrendered your iniative to him. The next move is his. Action beats reaction. You have to react to his next move while he is already acting. That is a very good way to get yourself killed. The 15 year old did exactly right to protect himself and his sister.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #7
72. They didn't make me watch a video or even read a pamphlet.
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