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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 12:43 PM
Original message
Virginia governor gives NRA monopoly on teaching gun safety to kids..
The Republican governor of Virginia has quietly changed a state law last month that would teach gun safety to elementary school students, mandating that it use a gun safety program run by the NRA.

The National Rifle Association exerts considerable influence in American politics, and has recently won a series of victories in the US Congress. Democratic leaders have been reluctant to challenge the powerful lobbying group, in part because they rely on a more conservative bloc of Democrats for their control of the legislative branch.

Now, Virginia Gov. Bob McConnell has delivered the NRA another coup: a monopoly on teaching gun safety to schoolchildren from kindergarten to fifth grade.

With the stroke of a pen -- or a keyboard -- the governor eliminated a provision in a new law allowing gun safety classes which would have given educators the power to choose between an NRA-sponsored program and one offered by the group that promotes McGruff the Crime Dog.

*snip*

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0525/virginia-governor-nra-... /




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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. NRA propaganda supported by tax payers. 'Hey, kids. Guns aren't so bad. Be sure and buy, buy, buy...
...when you grow up. Oh, and be safe blah blah blah.'

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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
39. Shows what you know
The Eddie Eagle program does not encourage (or discourage) acquiring firearms and/or joining the NRA, nor does it go into the ideology of the RKBA. It just teaches young children, if they encounter an unsecured firearm, to leave it alone and inform an adult.
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The Straight Story Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. sort of like using planned parenthood for sex ed, get the most qualified to do job (nt)
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. As far as I know, and I could be wrong...
planned parenthood doesn't go into schools and teach sex ed. The right would have a cow, they fight sex ed every chance they get. Not too mention the fact, that the NRA has an agenda, and they're way too political.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. How about you watch the video yourself?
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. ok...
I watched the video. I'm not against teaching gun safety, I grew up around guns, I was taught how to shoot a gun. I'm a firm believer in the 2nd amendment. I do, however have trust issues when you add wingers + NRA + children. I don't trust the wingers one little bit, and as far as I'm concerned they'd try and push their agenda by any means necessary.

I won't apologize for thinking the extreme right (which I think McConnell is) are sneaky, bastids that will do anything to further their agenda.

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. So you think all NRA instructors are Right Wingers?
Interesting.

Wrong, but interesting.
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. No,
I think wingers are wingers...and left alone will eventually try some stupid bullshit. Like I said in an earlier post, I don't have a problem with gun safety, I'm all for it. I grew up around guns, know how to shoot a gun and am a supporter of the 2nd amendment.

It's the wingers I have a problem with. And though many Dems are members of the NRA, that doesn't negate the fact that the NRA usually support the wingers and usually have problems with Democrats.

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. There's a reason for that.
Edited on Tue May-25-10 06:22 PM by AtheistCrusader
Because Democrats tend to consistently support incremental or outright bans on firearms, or places to lawfully use them, or places people can carry them. Which is anathema to the NRA's foundational goal.

If northern soldiers hadn't sucked for the first half of the Civil War, we wouldn't have an NRA you know. Northern Generals like Grant (later President) pushed for the NRA because we spent the first half of the war getting our asses rolled.

Edit: Most of them are 'blue dogs', but there are Democrats that enjoy solid support from the NRA.
I am not a member, and I do not suggest anyone become one, but the training they offer was selected for a reason, it is available, and one of the only games in town when it comes to child firearms safety training. It can't really BE improved upon. Unless you want to show small children pictures of other children with their skulls blown all over a wall. That might work. Not sure other parents would appreciate it though.
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
41. Thanks,
I wasn't aware of the history. Always happy to learn. I appreciate you taking the time to tell me.

As for Dems and gun rights, it would be nice if more came forward and became more involved. I can't tell you the number of times a Republican/Conservative stood dumb founded when they find out I'm in support of gun rights. And I know how to use a gun.

I wish there was more than the NRA to represent gun owners, a group that's more focused on safety, and education and not so much the politics of it. I'm not saying the NRA isn't good at teaching, but Christ, I can't stomach their politics or rhetoric.

Yeah, I'm not sure about the picture thing either. LOL. I have two kids, and I taught them about guns, and yes I did use pictures and stories. But I also did that with drugs. But that was my choice, not sure every parent would agree with that.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. The NRA has two parts.
The standard "NRA" does the training and safety. The "NRA-ILA" does the politics. The NRA-ILA is the division that gets most of the press, while the training/safety division does most of the work.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Yeah, the NRA instructor we had for our hunter safety education class
had an Obama 08 sticker on his truck. We talked a little. Anecdote, I know, but I saw some of it at the ranges and whatnot over the last few years. I know a couple NRA certified instructors that are flat out progressive, not just democrats(TM).

The NRA's political wing is vocal, and in my opinion, not DIRECTLY related to it's mission statement, though keeping people in posession of their firearms, and places to practice is part of it. But you don't technically need what Congress considers an 'assault weapon' to keep your skills sharp, so that fight is something of a sideshow, but it's a REALLY loud sideshow, so everything else is lost in the noise, and all that comes to most people's minds, is the political noise machine when they think "NRA". I don't blame you for thinking of it. It's out there, it's in your face, and hard to ignore.

The training is much more subdued, but it is pretty effective.

I tend to be ok with actual images of death. And my kid will probably be well served by it as well. Actions have consequences, and you can't recall a bullet no matter how much you regret firing it downrange. I like how Europe handles people who don't wear their seatbelts. They put them in a car that's mounted in a gyro, have them put on their belts, and then the flip the car over. That kind of hands on training works. Same for guns. Show people what actual dead people look like, and it's hard to be flippant about it. But it has to be done respectfully, or it just becomes another form of 'porn'. And some people are ill-equipped to consider the realities of actual human death, especially in the US, where the news is highly censored for objectionable content. I think it's part of the reason people don't always take firearms so seriously. We don't see the consequences of other people's mistakes. Not really. We see a clean, crisp 14 point Tahoma headline font, and that's it. Nobody sees the bone and the blood and the torn people.
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I really appreciate you taking the time...
explaining this to me. I'll admit most of what I know and what I based my judgments on was all the "noise". Now I know better.

My dad taught me what I know about guns, he was born and raised in Alabama, and everyone had a gun(s). Safety was very important to my parents, they had five kids, so we learned all about gun safety quick, fast, and in a hurry.

Now, one of my brothers is a retired cop, and he's taught me more. As a matter of fact, he's taking my daughter to the range and teaching her all she needs to about guns.

I was one of those parents that didn't shield my kids from "hard" truths, I used what I could find, pictures, stories, movies whatever, to make sure they knew the consequences of guns (used irresponsibly), drugs, drunk driving etc. My mom was a nurse and she worked on the neuro floor...bad head injuries, she also worked in the ER/ICU she would take us to the hospital and show us what happens you act stupid..drinking and driving..etc. I've never driven after I've had something to drink, always been safety conscience when it comes to guns etc. That kind of stuff tends to leave an impression.

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Llewlladdwr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. You are.
Planned Parenthood provides a variety of educational services, often working with local schools and colleges.
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. ok...
thanks I wasn't sure. I knew they worked with colleges, but not public schools. When I was in school, our health teacher, taught sex ed.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. when I was in school ..............
we learned about sex the old-fashioned way, OJT in the schoolyard during recess.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. They do in Seattle. Helped keep me from having a kid prematurely, sure.
We had Planned Parenthood in for 2 days of the 7 week health ed course, and I think the Abstinence clowns got a day. That was boring as shit, you can only say 'don't do it' so many ways, right?
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. The only 100% effective gun safety method is abstaining from firearms completely.
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MicaelS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Sounds just like the rhetoric of those "abstinence only"
Republican "Sex Educators". Amazing how great minds think alike, isn't it? :sarcasm: :puke:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
24. The problem with that theory is that unsecured guns exist in your child's broader environment
You can't control every gun that your son or daughter might come across. The older they get, the more likely they will encounter one that has not been properly secured, or is being handled in a negligent manner.

Every young person should be taught the basics of gun safety.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
28. Is that a "faith based" initiative??
Just asking..
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. Wrong of course.
But you knew that.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sounds like coercion to force non-members to join the NRA if they want to teach gun safety in VA.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. NRA provides the eddie eagle material to anyone who asks, no strings attached. n/t
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Still, it sounds as you though you MUST be a member of the NRA to teach gun safety in VA.
Not so much the materials as the membership.

Please correct me if I misunderstood.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. You are incorrect.
Edited on Tue May-25-10 01:36 PM by Statistical
Anyone can use Eddie Eagle program.

http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/index.asp

Who can teach The Eddie Eagle GunSafe Program?
Anyone can teach the program. Law enforcement officers, educators, volunteers and parents can teach the program. The easy-to-use instructor guides walk you through the lesson step-by-step. The program can be taught in schools, civic organizations, or at home.
http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/fact.asp#07

It simple teaches young children 4 simple concepts:
STOP
Don't touch
Leave the area
Tell an adult.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. OK, thanks! That sounds far more reasonable.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. I haven't read the bill itself, but..
Edited on Tue May-25-10 01:39 PM by X_Digger
.. most of the stories reporting this issue don't seem to say that one must be NRA certified, just "directing these gun safety programs to use materials from the National Crime Prevention Center as well as the NRA."

Now that first org doesn't exist, but the National Crime Prevention Council does (they did the McGruff the Crime Dog stuff), but they weren't consulted prior to this bill's passage, and they don't seem prepared to be involved-

Andrew Fois, a managing director of the National Crime Prevention Council, said that his group would be "thrilled to be included" in the program but that it does not have the resources to revise its gun safety material.

"We weren't consulted before we were put in," Fois said. "And we weren't consulted now that we've been taken out."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. Is there any recourse?
I'm supposed to go to the DC area in September, and our friends want to stay in Alexandria, but I'm seriously thinking I don't want to spend any money in that state.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Becasue teaching kids to leave guns alone is so EBIL! Right?

How about you watch the video yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIEBrb_wRYc

I mean such right winger messages as:
"Stop. Don't touch, leave the area, and tell an adult!"

OH NOES!!!!!!! Boycott VA they want to make accidental gunshots deaths which are already at at a 40 year low go even lower.
How dare they. Everyone knows ignorance is tbe best form of protection. It works well when it comes to drugs and sex too.
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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. And he declared Confederate History Month
why should I support that? And why give the NRA a monopoly? Why give anyone a monopoly?
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
45. The *only* people teaching gun safety now are the NRA. It's them or "abstinence only".
Edited on Tue May-25-10 09:50 PM by friendly_iconoclast
And we know how well that approach works with sex and drugs....
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. Yeah, we usually stay in Alexandria (much cheaper than DC) and take the train in.
I imagine that's your reason too. Just get out of your hotel each day and head straight into DC.

Pledge not to spend any more money than you have to in Virginia and have a great time in the city.

To Hell with the gun-centric racists that run Virginia now.

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LisaM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. IIRC, he also reversed some gay rights
and created some draconian anti-abortion provisions.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
6. Kinda like having the CIA teach Enhanced Interrogation Techniques.
After all, they're really, really, expert at it.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
33. Yeah, "Stop, Don't Touch, Leave and Tell an Adult" is so much like teaching torture. (n/t)
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
38. Don't hurt yourself stretching so much!
:rofl:
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
18. The other group mis-named in the bill isn't prepared to furnish material..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

Andrew Fois, a managing director of the National Crime Prevention Council, said that his group would be "thrilled to be included" in the program but that it does not have the resources to revise its gun safety material.

"We weren't consulted before we were put in," Fois said. "And we weren't consulted now that we've been taken out."
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one_voice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. Thanks for the link...
good information.



I agree that it should not be exclusive to the gun lobby...that's the only real problem I see with this. I believe in gun rights, and gun safety, the sooner safety is taught the better. You wouldn't have a pool, or allow your children around pools without some kind of lessons in swimming/safety.


From your link....

A group called Virginians for Public Safety, which works closely with pro-gun-control family members of victims of the 2007 shootings at Virginia Tech, is calling on the legislature to reject McDonnell's change in the gun education bill.

"If a school division elects to have this program, it should not be the exclusive domain of the gun lobby to supply the material," said Alice Mountjoy, a founding member of the group. "It's very narrow and, to my mind, narrow-minded."




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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
32. Who would you recommend?
And do you have any idea what is in the NRA program?

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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
40. If it's apolitical (and NRA's is), I don't care who provides the material.
Can you imagine the Brady bunch trying to make an apolitical program?
.
.
.
.
.
.
Yah, me neither.
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. The raging dishonesty of pro-"control" advocates is clearly demonstrated by

their complete lack of interest in investigating how & why a 2/3 reduction in gun accidents coincided with a 173% increase in the national handgun supply. Until such time as they demonstrate some genuine intellectual curiosity regarding such stats, they can simply shut the F up about whatever the NRA does to educate children about gun safety.

"Were health advocates rationally concerned about preserving human life, a two-thirds decline in fatal gun accidents should have been of great interest to them. Even in the absence of such concern, any honest scholarly proponent of the health advocacy shibboleth would be deeply interested in a phenomenon that diametrically contradicts that shibboleth. The interest should have been particularly intense and urgent for scholars motivated not by academic curiosity alone, but also by concern to preserve human life. After all, there must be some explanation for a two-thirds reduction in accidental gun deaths, and particularly for it's coinciding with a 173% increase in handguns. If that mysterious explanation could be determined, it might suggest strategies to reduce gun suicide or gun murders as well.<179> This potential should especially have attracted health (p.558)advocates; for, as we shall see, they have a penchant for combining statistics of gun fatality by suicide, homicide and accident into one homogeneous group, as if the three were related or homogeneous phenomena.

Of course, upon investigation it might turn out that no ready explanation can be found for the decline in gun accidents. Or, if an explanation is determinable, it might not be helpful in curbing gun murders and/or suicides. But the possibility that investigation could be fruitless does not explain, much less justify, the health advocates' total lack of interest in pursuing such an investigation--the fact that the decline itself has gone virtually unmentioned and that there has been no focus at all on its implications in the health advocacy literature against guns.<180> ;(p.559) This total disinterest has an interesting implication of its own. Without denying that health advocates do care about reducing gun death, their disinterest in the twenty-year decline in accidental death implies that their concern is severely compromised by their hatred of guns. Though avowing a deep and single-minded concern to save lives, they seem interested only in ways of doing so which involve reducing access to guns. At least we can think of no other reason for their total lack of interest in finding out how and why accidental gun death could decline by two thirds over a period when the handgunstock was increasing by 173%."

From "Epidemic of Violence or Pandemic of Propaganda" (Don Kates et al)
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biermeister Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. Do you realize that most all gun safety classes &
instructors are sponsored and/or certified by the evil NRA? My wife just took her FIRST pistol safety class through an NRA school. We both feel very good about the material covered and her overall knowledge of firearms & safety.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 04:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. Good!
The NRA provides about the best firearm safety instruction that there is.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-25-10 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
36. Doesn't bother me. NRA does well with gun safety.
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