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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 11:36 AM
Original message
The steady gains of Gun Rights, is accelerating into a rout ...
Edited on Sun Apr-18-10 11:45 AM by virginia mountainman
While all eyes, of the Brady Campaign is fixated on Starbucks, where they have been told to "FO", the gun rights advocates have been winning, and winning BIG, in the vast majority of states, and court cases.

Arizona just went for unlicensed CCW..... Yes, it is still very illegal for a criminal to have a gun...

Much whining has been made of Virginia's allowing CCW in Restaurants that serve alcohol, with the caveat that CCW holders cannot drink. Bringing VA in line with most of the rest of the nation, that has allowed it all along.

Going completely unnoticed by MSM and the Brady Bunch, was that VA also passed several other pro gun laws..

HB109, repeals the law that allows counties to register handguns and tax them.

HB1191, allows a Circuit Court Clerk to sign off on a CHP if there are no problems with the application.

SB3 and HB8, to clarify that CHPs can be renewed through the mail.

SB408, allow non-CHP holders to lock their loaded guns in a compartment or container in their vehicle. (this is to be amended to remove the "lock" requirement)

SB533, first time CHP applicants have a right to an ore tenus hearing if they are turned
down for their permit.

These all got thru before a couple of assholes in Democratic leadership created a "death star" panel, in violation of Senate rules to kill the rest of the bills.....I am still seething with anger over that...

I am of certain, that in Virginia, in the next election cycle, we will see the complete and total collapse of any ability of the Gun Control supporters to be able to effect any bills in any significant way........

Than we get to the national issue....

Eleanor Holmes Norton recently said..
The strength of gun forces in Congress has grown, not diminished,


Yep...it has..

The rout continues....

And the one thing Gun Control advocates, MUST realize is this...They created the gun rights movement. Most people did not care about gun rights, until silly bans on protruding hand grips, and incredibly bureaucratic gun laws started being rammed thru...So they electrified a group of voters that previously did not care, and now, they must deal with the consequences of angering a huge number of voters.

Gun Control advocates in many ways, would have been much better off (in their own minds) if they would have kept their mouths shut...But since they didn't, we now have an active, large, solid block of gun rights voters, and now have CCW in practically all the nation, and gun control laws, are falling like leaves in September.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. u people r a scary lot with your obsessions nt
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. "Obsessions:" That was what comes to mind when I think of gun-controllers. nt
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Amazing how some liberals and progressives only care about certain rights
Would you feel the same way if some of the other Bill of Rights been treated so cavalierly?
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. The scariest one of all is the obsession with control in the name of "safety".
The pro2A position is simple. To be armed or not is the decision of the citizen. The opposing position is just as simple. The citizen is incapable of making such a decision and therefore the decision must be made by those in a position of authority (government or LEO's). Simple, yes?
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Speaking just for myself I'm *somewhat* obsessed about the manner in
which bad gun "control" policy damages the Democratic Party. Obsessed with my guns themselves ------ nope.
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Mother Smuckers Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
30. I confess...I am obsessed with the Constitution. And the Bill of Rights.
Sorry.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
41. Yep, your rights are scary.
Don't worry, we'll keep defending them if you're too frightened.
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HALO141 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
45. BOO!
Just testing. :p
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
54. to paraphrase... obsession with liberty, is no vice
hth
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Saturday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. Another reason not to move to Virginia. nt
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Or Texas, or NM, or AZ, or FL, or GA, or VT, or NH, or LA, or MN, or OR, or WA, or OK, or AR, or...
Any of the other states that already allow much of what V_M posted, eh?

You stay snug as a bug in a rug in IL, MA, CA, or NYC (at least until McDonald or one of the cases that follow it come down.)
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Actually I left the district to move to VA due to gun laws and other DC idiocy
I lived in the region 4 separate times. After the first time I never considered living in DC proper again.
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katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. Congratulations on your racist, sexist, homophobic throwback governor and AG
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Actually I retired in CA and returned to teaching full time.
My career and later my wife's kept us mobile. It made for an interesting life for us and our kids.

The DC establishment is still fighting Heller and will hopefully have their heads handed to them soon. The DC laws prevent reasonable self defense and go after those who resist thugs. They deny the right of effective self defense to the weak and less powerful, including women and gays. Scarcely a civilized or progressive environment.
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Congrats to your throwback view of gun control
Edited on Sun Apr-18-10 02:42 PM by cowman
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. Which has nothing to do with the subject at hand..
You forget....MOST Democrats in VA support those laws....

And since you would rather toss out personal attacks, than debate the issue at hand, you clearly have no argument against our arguments, and thus, YOU LOSE...
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. I suggest that Chicago is a great place to live for those who love gun control ...
The gun laws are VERY strict there.

Of course, there is the minor problem of gun violence on Chicago streets.


April 17, 2010 (CHICAGO) (WLS) -- Chicago residents were calling for peace Saturday as they searched for solutions after multiple shootings occurred over the last several days.

Many of the victims have been teenagers and young adults.

Since Thursday night, Chicago police say at least 32 people have been shot. Out of all those gunfire victims, at least eight people have died.
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=...


But fear not. Heroic mayor Daley plans to push for stronger state gun laws. :sarcasm:
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. What a stupid argument.
The reason gun control laws don't work in SELECTED AREAS is that they can be obtained from SURROUNDING AREAS.

The only way to have SANE GUN CONTROL is to have a NATIONAL GUN CONTROL!!!
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Then why don't those "SURROUNDING AREAS"...
have the same crime problems?

Huh.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. Crickets. Crickets.
Same reason nobody can explain why criminals don't use firearms in VA, they take them to (at the time) gun ban & homicide capital of the US - DC.

Never had an anti that could explain it to me.

Never had one to explain to be how city of Richmond was able to cut homicide rate in half in 5 years without a single gun ban and by simply enforcing existing gun laws (that have been on the books 50 years).
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #48
52. The silence... it is deafening. n/t
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. That same old argument
has been debunked so many times it gets tiresome
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. Yea, who is going to push???
Politicians KNOW, that in the vast majority of the US, their FIRST vote for gun control, WILL, be among their last votes at all..

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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. However more guns does not equal more crime ...
check out this graph that shows violent crime in the U.S. from 1993 to 2007. The data comes from the The Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) -



Some more interesting graphs:


http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/glance/cv2.cfm

So crime in our nation has been dropping. The trend continued in 2009.


Preliminary figures indicate that, as a whole, law enforcement agencies throughout the Nation reported a decrease of 4.4 percent in the number of violent crimes brought to their attention for the first six months of 2009 when compared with figures reported for the same time in 2008. The violent crime category includes murder, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The number of property crimes in the United States from January to June of 2009 decreased 6.1 percent when compared with data from the same time period in 2008. Property crimes include burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft. Arson is also a property crime, but data for arson are not included in property crime totals. Figures for 2009 indicate that arson decreased 8.2 percent when compared to 2008 figures from the same time period.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/2009prelimsem/index.html


Interestingly, 1993 to the present is the time frame in which "shall issue" concealed carry laws swept the country.



During this period of time the sales of firearms including "assault weapons" absolutely sky rocketed. The trend continues as:

FBI: March 2010 Gun Sales Fifth-Best Month Ever
April 7, 2010

(GunReports.com)--Data released by the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) reported 1,300,100 checks in March 2010, ranking the month the second highest March (fifth highest month overall) for most NICS checks.

This figure, while being a 3.3 percent decrease from the 1,345,096 checks conducted in March 2009 -- the early stage of an ongoing surge in firearms and ammunition sales -- is an increase of 24.9 percent over checks in March 2008.

The total number of background checks reported since the beginning of NICS is 113,680,372.
http://www.gunreports.com/news/news/FBI-NICS-Gun-Sales_ ...


It's impossible to know how many firearms there are in the U.S. but estimates run from 200 to 350 million in 40 to 50 percent of the homes. Another interesting fact is that accidental death rates from firearms has been falling for a century.



Now I am not going to go so far as to state that more guns = less crime, but there may be a correlation. Many factors figure into the crime rate formula, such as better policing and community efforts.

Why are violent crime rates falling?
Saturday, January 2, 2010

AS YOU HAVE no doubt heard, the first 10 years of the 21st century were dreadful -- a lost decade of terrorism, war and economic stagnation. There is some truth to that portrayal. But in one significant respect, the awful Aughties were practically a golden age. We refer to the continued progress the United States is making against homicide and other violent crime.

According to some conventional wisdom, economic trouble breeds lawlessness. Yet in the first half of 2009, as unemployment skyrocketed, reported murders, forcible rapes, robberies and aggravated assaults decreased by 4.4 percent compared with the first half of 2008, according to the FBI. The decline in homicide was especially striking: down 29.8 percent in Los Angeles, 14 percent in Atlanta, 10 percent in Boston. With 461 murders through Dec. 27, New York was on track for the lowest number since comprehensive record-keeping began in 1963 -- when the Big Apple was a slightly smaller town.

***snip***

The national decrease in murder began about two decades ago. In 1991, the national homicide rate hit 9.8 per 100,000 inhabitants, prompting forecasts of permanently rising street violence -- then fell to 5.7 in 1999. Many wondered whether this "Great Crime Decline" could be sustained for another 10 years. The answer would appear to be yes: By 2008, the murder rate had drifted down to 5.4 per 100,000, the lowest level since 1965. And given the preliminary figures, the rate for 2009 should be lower still. Indeed, if present trends continue, America will experience a degree of public safety not known since the 1950s.

***snip***

If only we knew exactly why and how it has occurred. An accident of demography? The passing of the crack cocaine epidemic? We're inclined to credit policies that put more brave and dedicated cops on the street, with better technology and smarter tactics. Still New York City continued to rack up lower homicide rates in the past decade even as its police force shrank by 6,000. New York officials say that city's tougher gun laws have helped; yet Houston also recorded a drop in homicide in the first half of 2009 despite loose gun laws.

Tougher sentencing probably took some career criminals off the streets -- though there's little evidence that the death penalty deters murder. No doubt new lifesaving medical techniques turned potential homicides into lesser offenses -- yet aggravated assault is down, too.

Government at all levels spends much time and money figuring out what's going wrong in our society and how to fix it. Perhaps we need a bigger effort to determine what's been going right in the fight against violent crime -- and to spread that knowledge to every jurisdiction in the country.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...


You propose national gun control, perhaps similar to what exists in the U.K. and other European nations.


The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.
Last updated at 12:14 AM on 3rd July 2009

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

***snip***

But it is the naming of Britain as the most violent country in the EU that is most shocking. The analysis is based on the number of crimes per 100,000 residents.

In the UK, there are 2,034 offences per 100,000 people, way ahead of second-placed Austria with a rate of 1,677.


The U.S. has a violence rate of 466 crimes per 100,000 residents, Canada 935, Australia 92 and South Africa 1,609. emphasis added

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-vio...

















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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. GREAT POST! NT
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. Thanks for your support. (n/t)
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #18
38. Yes, this is a great post -- and it's message needs to be constantly repeated
because unbiased readers need to be made aware that crime and gun-related accidents are on a downward trend as the nation's gunstock is increasing.

Isn't is odd that those who favor restricting the gun supply can't figure out this excruciatingly simple equation? (More guns *does not* equal more violent crime.)
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. I enjoy posting this info ...
it's possible that it helps to convince lurkers on this forum that guns in legal hands are not terrible and therefore is worthwhile.
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. And I believe that you're right on the money with this sentiment.
Those persons who are intellectually curious and have an open mind will detect in very short order the qualitative difference in the arguments pro vs. con on this issue; even with little or no personal knowledge re. the guns/violence equation. Every single day a pro-reg member will get busted for gross lack of knowledge, irrational statements, and bigotry.......and over time that fair-minded reader will also notice the one-trick-pony approach the pro-reg "debaters" employ.

Internet discussions on gun rights/restrictions cannot be discounted as a reason that the notion of gun "control" is losing support steadily.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #11
29.  And what laws would you support for "sane gun control"? n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. You're going to be limited to about two states.
Hawaii and Illinois.

Good luck with that.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. Add: Students have right to stage "empty holster" protests on campus.
And CU just got their gun ban booted in court.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
katandmoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. And more and more innocent people will die not because of criminals but because "law abiding"
citizens who are careless, stupid, or out of control. Congratulations, NRA and its stooges in congress and its brainwashed minions - you all have blood on your hands.
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. How foolish you sound
proclaiming that what has never happened as gun control laws have relaxed over time will start happening at some unstated future date!
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. OMFG
Blood will now run in the streets and arroyos :rofl:
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Please, *do* keep doing what you've been doing- because it's failing.
Looks like statistics trump moral panics, for once.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Keep it up!!
These sort of statements only help us defeat Gun Control advocates...
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. What I find amusing is that the freak-out contingent of the pro-control
movement is at this stage of the game serving the interest of the Democratic Party by helping to defeat gun control......the opposite of what they intend. Sort of brings to mind the "three different groups of people":

a) People who make things happen
b) People who watch what happens
c) People who gaze about with dazed expressions and ask "What happened?"

Our resident panic driven members will surely end up in catagory "C" before long.
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Mother Smuckers Donating Member (277 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. Help me out here...I know you aren't serious, but it's not satire and it's not sarcasm...
what exactly is it???
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. And what about the victims of violent crime who weren't able to defend themselves with a gun because

of gun control. Do those victims have any place in your hand wringing routine?
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 05:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Apparently they don't, which is why the so-called "compassion" of the
pro-controlllers is a false (unifaceted) compassion.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
35. There there, don't fret...
Edited on Sun Apr-18-10 06:28 PM by east texas lib
Just buy yourself a good pistol. You'll be right as rain in no time. See you at the range!
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #16
36. Cite your evidence, please... n/t
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-18-10 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Since gun sales have skyrocketed in the last couple years ...
you should be able to point out statistics that show that more guns = more crime and accidents.

It's a simple task. Go for it.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #16
42. Canard.
I'm a legal gun-owner and CCW holder.

"you all have blood on your hands."

Please explain how I have blood on my hands. :eyes:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
49. Homicide rate & accidental firearm death rate have plummeted over last 30 years.
Of course facts rarely matter when antis cling to emotional arguments.
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 02:09 AM
Response to Original message
43. " Return with us to those thrilling days of yesteryear"
when all of the fools were packing.Why do we need the military and the police,give every citizen a rod(gat,piece,six shooter,iron,sat.night special,etc: and save the tax dollar we spend on defense.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Yesteryear, Western towns and cities had much lower crime rates than today. N/T
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Yesteryear like the high crime 60s. Homicide & violent crime rates are at a 40 year low.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
46. So, I Guess We Can Expect People Like You To Shut The Fuck Up About It? (n/t)
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tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. As soon as people like you
Shut the fuck up about it.

And stop posting asinine stories about cars full of young G's shooting at each other as evidence of the problems inherent with private citizens owning guns.

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-19-10 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. As long as certain people..
Edited on Mon Apr-19-10 11:43 PM by virginia mountainman
Continue to follow the Republican leadership of the Brady Campaign, Million Mom March, and Mayor's against illegal guns...

I, along with many, many others, WILL, be here, hour after hour, day after day, week after week, month after month, year after year, decade after decade....Helping to continue the rout against the forces that want to shred the Bill of Rights..

The is not a fad, this is not something that "will cool down"....

Unlike your side, where people get tired and drop to the wayside, or learn the folly of their ways and join us....We ARE 100% committed, and unlike most gun control advocates,

We are in it to WIN......And also unlike the gun control movement...our numbers are growing...
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. "We are in it to WIN......And also unlike the gun control movement...........
........our numbers are growing.....

:thumbsup:
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. Noticed that the remnants of gun control are becoming more religious in nature?
Like spin so ably pointed out in post #18, it's becoming harder to peddle the "more guns = more crime' line these days,
as those damnable facts keep getting in the way.

So now we get the posters claiming that the cause of crimes comitted with guns are the guns themselves.
That is, they are an "occasion of sin":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occasion_of_sin

In Roman Catholic teaching, an occasion of sin is an external set of circumstanceswhether of things or personswhich either because of their special nature or because of the frailty common to humanity or peculiar to some individual, incite or entice one to sin....

Or as the great Flip Wilson might have said: "The gun manufacturers made me do it!"


You know, just like computers cause child poronography and hate speech, or automobiles cause drunk driving?

People are seeing though this nonsense, and that's a good thing.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-10 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. They are running out of lies..
All they have now is faith.....Just like religious zelots....

Faith:

1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions

2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

synonyms see belief

on faith : without question <took everything he said on faith>
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