More from the Bradys

[oneshooter]

It seems that they do not want a business to decide on a OC policy on its own. Now they are wanting to FORCE Starbucks to adopt their policy!

Tell Starbucks: Espresso Shots, Not Gunshots

Over the past few months, more and more gun owners have been gathering at restaurants and coffee shops like Starbucks with guns strapped to their hips, intimidating fellow patrons.

It's everyone's right to sit in a restaurant or coffee shop with their families without intimidation or fear of guns, either concealed or openly carried.

Under the law, Starbucks has the right to adopt a gun-free policy, with an exception for uniformed police officers. Such a policy can easily be implemented in most cases by putting up signs at store entrances.

The practice of packing heat in places like Starbucks is intimidating and could be potentially dangerous to our families and communities – and it must be stopped.

Like it or not,it is the right of the property owner to decide.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas


Edit because of loud crying sounds.

[joeybee12]

1. And it's the right of every citizen to let that property owner

know what they think that decision should be...that property owner can take that advice or not.

What a ridiculous post

[DonP]

13. I agree, let the customers speak their mind, but ...

I don't understand what was so infantile about the post?

The Brady people trying to force the issue is kind of silly, but so what else is new? Oneshooter is just copying part of the Brady press release. Frankly the Brady Bunch doesn't really care what happens to a private business, whether you lose or gain business from their suggested policy. They just want a hook for their latest press release in another truly desperate effort to stay relevant.

I'm pretty sure most gun owners respect the private property rights of business owners to choose to allow or not allow open or concealed carry on their property. Many of them favor telling a store owner they won't be coming back in because of their stance. Some even have had little business cards printed up to leave behind at the check out counter.

But, FWIW, most states that start a CCW program (Ohio, PA, Minnesota, Texas etc.) begin with a lot of "no gun" signs and over time realize that they are losing business over it and, when "the blood doesn't run in the streets" as promised repeatedly by the Bradys and friends, they quietly drop the signs and take the money.

[Captain Hilts]

2. I thought Skinner said we're not supposed to do sarcastic name-calling....nt

[krispos42]

4. Of other members or groups of them. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

17. The OP is a smear. nt

[DonP]

37. How?

The OP picks up a press release from an advocacy group, Brady for more gun control.

Other than the Brady assumption that business owners are too dumb to think for themselves, How is that a smear?

[burrfoot]

44. But it's actually from the Brady campaign, right?

Do you mean that you'd rather they be referred to as members of the Brady campaign against gun violence (or something like that)?

(honestly curious, no snark here. I appreciate your recent comments on the other thread and enjoy this whole new civil discussion thingy ;) )

[RDANGELO]

3. I am a coffee drinker who has never stepped foot into a starbucks.

Now I have a reason not to.

[oneshooter]

7. Starbucks does not, at this time,a corporate wide gun policy.

Individual stores may have a ban on OC. But there is no cooperate policy.

[spin]

50. A corporate policy would make them a "gun free zone"...

All too often gun free zones end up as shooting galleries.

[tridim]

5. Another blanket smear from the gungeon that appears on the "latest" page.

Boo hiss.

Embarrassing.

[X_Digger]

8. You're gonna make me regret buying you that star last august, aren't you? n/t

[tridim]

9. Do you disagree with Skinner's new rules?

[X_Digger]

12. Which rule (new or otherwise) does the first post violate? n/t

[tridim]

15. Blanket smears are no longer allowed in the gungeon

And from what I'm seeing immediately following the rule change, is some posters bucking the rules on purpose even though they are fully aware of the rule change.

[X_Digger]

16. See post #4. n/t

[tridim]

18. Post #4 ignores the fact that guneon posters routinely claim..

that anyone who wants any gun restrictions must be part of said "Brady Bunch".

It is a perfect example of a blanket smear, and it's pure bullshit every time.

[X_Digger]

20. I think you're reading too much into a single post..

The following is the only text that oneshooter wrote- the rest is from the press release (granted he didn't set off his comments from the article, but they should be fairly obvious.)

More from the Brady Bunch

It seems that they do not want a business to decide on a OC policy on its own. Now they are wanting to FORCE Starbucks to adopt their policy!

Like it or not,it is the right of the property owner to decide.

Now, where in his words in that post do you see a 'blanket smear' of the brady press release?

The next time you see a violation of the rules, in a particular post you can alert on it, and I'm sure the mods will give it their attention. But saying that the original post is a 'blanket smear' based on past posts is a little, umm.. out there, to me.

[tridim]

22. The term itself is a smear.

And IMO the OP did it on purpose.

Why should anyone play by the rules if gungeon posters wont?

[oneshooter]

25. I did not mean to smear a TV program.

If I had known that it was apparently a favorite of yours.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[tridim]

28. Typical worthless and childish gungeon response.

Thanks for proving my point.

This sub-forum is disgusting and embarrassing.

[rd_kent]

32. Please stop using the blanket smear "gungeon".

[tridim]

47. As soon as you do the same. M'kay?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=246503&mesg_id=246556

[rd_kent]

55. Already said I would, mkay?

[eqfan592]

57. Dude, seriously...

...do you not get how much of an ass you appear to be when you smear the crap out of everybody around you while throwing a tempter tantrum over a perceived slight? Get a grip.

[Euromutt]

75. Well, that didn't sound like a "blanket smear" at all!

"Typical worthless and childish gungeon response."
"This sub-forum is disgusting and embarrassing."

And you're faulting others for using supposed "blanket smears"? I'm not in the habit of citing scripture, but may I suggest you review Matthew 7:3-5 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%207:3-7:5&version=KJV)? You might learn something from it.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

39. This forum is referred to as the "gungeon" by people who post here.

[rd_kent]

48. And it has to stop. The smears have to stop, tridim, just stop.

Now you have made me cry. Thanks.

[tridim]

52. Agreed, we can start by deleting this OP

And deleting all of your past posts that use the term "gungeon".

[rd_kent]

54. How do you live there with all your hypocrisy, huh?

[proteus_lives]

60. Those opposed to the 2nd Amendment don't notice hypocrisy anymore.

They need it because their argument are so faulty.

[spin]

53. I have no problem with the term "gungeon" ...

or the fact that gun related posts are sent to the gun dungeon. Guns are not the only subject that has it's own sub forum. I enjoy posting on gun related subjects and this sub forum allows me to see many posts that I might miss if they were on GD.

I find gungeon a humorous but accurate description of one of the most rowdy sub forums on DU.

[Katya Mullethov]

56. I rather prefer oubliette

How about the Goubliette ?

[spin]

58. That would work for me. I'm not sure how the other poster would feel. (n/t)

[rd_kent]

29. I think your use of the term "gungeon" is a smear. Stop using it please.

[tridim]

31. Then alert me.

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

41. Ignorance of what? Certainly not Skinner's new rules.

[rd_kent]

34. "Blanket smears are no longer allowed in the gungeon" - Then stop using the blanket smear "gungeon"

[tridim]

40. You use the term all the time.

As do most posters in this sub-forum.

[rd_kent]

46. And I now realize its a smear, just like you think the OP is.

[Katya Mullethov]

63. Ding ! Inspiration ! Kent is your name .

HEYYYY !! Where'd my post go ?

How about The Goobliette ? You Goober you .

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Euromutt]

77. How is it a "blanket smear"? The Brady Campaign doesn't have any members!

Skinner's new rule serves a fairly obvious purpose: to cut down on poster violating the spirit, albeit not the letter, of the rules by making inflammatory/pejorative comments that--while not explicitly directed at any one or more posters--is clearly meant as abuse at a group of people that at least includes other DU posters.

Since the Brady Campaign doesn't have members, and the prominent members of its staff are Republicans (Helmke) or at least Republican-leaning (Sarah Brady), it's highly unlikely that any of them post here (the Brady Campaign doesn't really want to hear arguments against its stated position, which is why they don't allow comments anywhere on their site), referring to them as the "Brady Bunch" is extremely unlikely to affect anyone who frequents this forum.

Tell me, if someone uses terms like "Rethuglican," "Repuke" et al. are you going to call them on that and tell them not to use "blanket smears"?

[X_Digger]

6. Link?

I googled the title and came up with this..

http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/starbucks_guns/?rc=brady

http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/gunlobbybacked/opencarryguns

[oneshooter]

11. Sorry, not enough coffee yet. n/t

[X_Digger]

14. Lol, then go to starbucks ;)

[oneshooter]

19. I prefer to brew my own, thank you. Its a LOT cheaper!!! n/t

[spin]

10. If a store puts up a no-gun sign ...

I call the owner or manager and explain that I walked up to his door and noticed the sign. So I left, went down the street to his competitor and did my business there.

I also explain that I liked doing business with him, and if he chooses to take down the sign, I may return.

This approach seemed to work well in the early days of Concealed Carry in Florida. After a couple of months, most of the no gun signs came down.

[crim son]

21. People are upset that they cannot go armed to Starbucks?

I find that disturbing. Also, they just gained a customer.

[X_Digger]

26. Umm.. You might want to read it again..

Starbucks does _not_ have a corporate policy about open or concealed carry- they leave it up to the individual store.

If you're in Maine as your profile states, chances are you may bump into someone concealed carrying at the local starbucks, if that particular store hasn't posted a sign. Maine also has open carry (for permit holders) so you may even see a gun on someone's hip there.

[rd_kent]

35. I find it disturbing that you lack basic reading comprehension.

[SteveM]

51. Buy local! I prefer Bouldin Creek Cafe in Austin. Progressive, tolerant. nt

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rd_kent]

36. I guess you too, are ignoring the new rules on civility, huh, shares?

[sharesunited]

42. You've been trying to suppress opposing viewpoints on the grounds of civility.

It doesn't lack civility just because it hurts when you read it.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spin]

43. Is that a subtle penis reference? ...

if so it's original and got me to laugh.

I live in a state where concealed carry is allowed and I don't know anyone who carries openly. The people I know who carry concealed are not "gun worshipers". Most also carry a folding knife clipped to their pocket. They view the firearm they carry and the knife as tools.

The knife is a very useful tool that comes in handy ten or fifteen times a day for mundane tasks but can save your life by slicing a seat belt after an auto accident.

There is absolutely no doubt that a handgun in skilled hands is a excellent tool for self defense. It's not something that you pray to or feel contains the spirit of a higher power. To be honest, I've never known an individual who worshiped a firearm. I'm sure they exist, but I never have ran into one.

Surprisingly, I agree with you on open carry. I would compare it to walking around with your pants dangling low, showing your underpants. You look like a fool and probably are.

[spin]

24. The Brady Campaign seems mainly to oppose open carry ...

but they also want to see businesses bar concealed carry.

PROBLEM: More and more gun owners, seeking to “make a statement” about their right to have a gun, are openly carrying guns in public places like restaurants and coffee shops, as well as to political events like town hall meetings. Some gun owners have even openly carried assault weapons and other guns outside of Presidential events. Although most states regulate the carrying of concealed weapons, at least by requiring a license, few states regulate open carry.

THREAT: The open carrying of firearms in public places is inherently threatening and intimidating, and poses risks to those nearby, to law enforcement and to the community. For example, when open carry has occurred in retail stores, other customers quickly become alarmed and the police often are called to the scene, creating a volatile and potentially dangerous situation. Everyone should have the right to sit in a coffee shop or a restaurant with their families, including their children, without being confronted with the threatening presence of openly-displayed handguns and assault weapons.

URGENCY: There is a growing “open carry” movement among gun activists, who seek to make a political statement by gathering in coffee shops, restaurants and other public locations with their guns openly on display. Given the absence of meaningful regulation of open carry in the vast majority of states, more and more Americans will be faced with the intimidation and danger of confronting guns in public places.

SOLUTION: Businesses should bar the open, as well as the concealed, carry of firearms on their premises. States where open carry is largely unregulated should either prohibit open carry, with limited exceptions, or adopt measures to subject open carry to strict licensing requirements in the interest of public safety. emphasis added
http://www.bradycampaign.org/legislation/gunlobbybacked/opencarryguns

I can understand that open carry may cause some citizens who are unfamiliar with firearms to feel "threatened". Concealed carry means that no one should know you are carrying a firearm. Exposing your firearm, even accidentally, can often lead to an encounter with the local police and possibly the loss of your license.

So when I carry, I make damn sure that my weapon is indeed concealed. Over the years I have never, in any way,threatened or intimidated anyone as they never knew I was carrying a firearm.

Many people support open carry and make good arguments for the practice. I still firmly believe that concealed carry is the way to go as it doesn't attract unfavorable attention.

[oneshooter]

38. Of course in California, UNLOADED open carry

is the only way possible. Unless you are a big campaign donor, or in tight with the local Sheriff.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[spin]

49. Openly carrying an unloaded weapon is STUPID ...

I don't carry unloaded weapons.

Homie don't play dat

[PavePusher]

61. And no-one in Cali WANTS to...

But it is the extreme they are forced to by the state and local laws.

With a little practice, one can learn to load a semi-auto quite quickly.

[spin]

64. If I lived in Cali ...

I would push my elected officials to allow "shall issue" concealed carry state wide.

In return, I would give up open carry in urban areas.

Sounds like a fair compromise to me.

[PavePusher]

65. Sorry, I disagree.

One should not have to compromise on an essential Civil Right.

[spin]

68. I just thought of something that might change my opinion ...

I often openly carry a 4" fixed blade knife in a belt sheath.

Where I live at knives are common but most people carry a folder clipped to their pocket. I could conceal this knife if I wanted to as I have a concealed weapons permit. In the state of Florida this permit allows me to carry a number of weapons concealed.

790.06 License to carry concealed weapon or firearm. -
"(1)..........For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie, but the term does not include a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001"

However, the local police have no problem with me carrying my fixed blade knife in the open. If I journey to the Tampa Bay area, I might get harassed. In that area of Florida, I just carry a 4" folding knife. In my area, I'm sure that people notice the knife, but they don't seem to consider it all that unusual.

The Florida knife laws are somewhat vague at best.

Open carry of firearms in urban areas in Florida is prohibited, but if the law changed open carry would probably be fairly common. At first it would attract a lot of negative attention from Floridians but this would fade as time passed.

But Florida will probably be one of the last states to allow open carry. It would scare the tourists who are important to our economy. Concealed carry doesn't present that problem as the tourists never know you are packing heat.

[PavePusher]

70. From what I have seen,

O.C. in Arizona, Utah, Vermont and New Hampshire has not scared off any tourists. Granted, not many people do it, but it is not unknown.

And frankly, if it did keep someone from coming back, they probably aren't the kind of people we want around. There are some principals worth the sacrifice of a few dollars.

P.S. I'm not trying to be particularly confrontational, just stating the situation as I see it, on a subject I feel strongly about.

[spin]

73. I didn't find your post confrontational at all ...

Open carry of firearms is a subject I have mixed views on. Discussing the subject helps me reevaluate my position.

One of my main problems with open carry is that it puts you in a position where situational awareness is even more critical then normal. You are carrying a very valuable item that could be misused by a criminal if he were able to grab it. With concealed carry, a good retention holster is not as important as in open carry.

In a criminal attack or a situation involving a mass murderer, a person carrying openly may be the first target. In such a situation the person who carries concealed has the advantage of surprise and can take more time to appraise the situation before pulling his weapon. Drawing a weapon can elevate the situation to a new level. Many concealed weapons courses tell the students to only draw their weapon when absolutely necessary and once you do draw you should be shooting.

If the bad guy notices that you are carrying openly, you have already elevated the situation. He'll see you as a threat and possibly decide to take you out before you take him out.

The reason that I said openly carrying an unloaded firearm is a stupid idea is that in a real life situation seconds count. Even with extensive practice it takes a while to pull a pistol from a holster, especially a retention holster. At the same time you have to pull a magazine out with your off hand. Then you have the time involved in inserting the magazine into the pistol, pulling the slide back and then finally acquiring and engaging your target. Revolvers are even slower to load unless you have the rare revolver that loads with a full moon clip.

While you are busy fumbling with your firearm, the bad guy has time to fire several shots at you. Hopefully, he is a bad shot who likes to look cool while holding his firearm sideways.

I sympathize with your situation. It does seem to me that California might move toward "shall issue" concealed carry long before they buy into loaded open carry. Even so, you face an uphill fight.

But "shall issue" concealed carry has an excellent record of success in many states. Voters will be easier to convince to vote for "shall issue". If you really want to carry openly, first get laws passed to allow concealed carry for all honest citizens. By the time you accomplish this, open carry may be gaining ground in many states.

This incremental approach may prove more successful than going for the big prize. A football team can often move down the field with small gains in yardage and score a touchdown easier than always relying on long passes.

[GreenStormCloud]

76. The advantage of Open Carry Laws is that they offer a choice.

Different situations require different solutions. If Texas were to allow OC, I would still carry concealed. But I can see situation in which a a person may wish to carry openly. Mainly I think such a person would be OC in a rural area (Mainly the Western part of the state.) and not want to switch just to run an errand into a town and back to the ranch. It could be convenient for a few other situations also.

However, there are other items on my guns wish list for Texas before OC. You are right that we need to go in increments.

[MisterBill45]

67. or you can....

"With a little practice, one can learn to load a semi-auto quite quickly. "

With a little practice the average person you can learn to load a revolver in about 3 seconds. 2 if you're good. Speedloaders FTW!

[PavePusher]

71. True, and I thought about including that...

But I think that a semi has the edge in loading ease vs. training time for loading.

But it's close enough that everyone should go with what they are comfortable with.

[benEzra]

59. " Like it or not,it is the right of the property owner to decide."

Would you agree that it is also the right of the property owner to decide whether or not to allow licensed concealed carry in their restaurant, if the restaurant has a wine list? Or do you believe property owners should be allowed to prohibit, but not allow, licensed carry?

[MisterBill45]

62. I hate to break it to you

But in most states a "no guns" sign isn't worth the paper it's printed on. IF you notice my concealed weapon (highly unlikely) you can ask me to leave and trespass me if I refuse. That's it.

You can't have me arrested for violating your stupid sign, any more than you could have me arrested for sporting my VETS FOR OBAMA button that I constantly wore to gun shops and gun shows all during the campaign.

I had some heated discussions over that button and surprisingly to many of you perhaps, a lot of "right on brother!" comments. But NO ONE ASKED ME TO FREAKING LEAVE.

So much for "tolerance" from the left. Orwell and Emma Goldman would spit in the face of most "progressives" these days for the utter hypocrisy and cowardice they show on civil liberties.

Dad was right. Most Democrats stopped being real liberals after JKF was killed. What's left are a bunch of corporatists and cowards afraid of anything they disagree with or don't understand and ZERO tolerance for dissent. No wonder the GOP isn't dead. You've given people a choice between two nearly equally awful alternatives. One favors corporations openly, the other under cover of "compassion."

FWIW Elanor Freakin Roosevelt packed heat. I guess she was a crazed, racist fear-monger?

[PavePusher]

66. Excellent! n/t

[X_Digger]

69. This one is lighting up the gun boards..

All kinds of pro-CCW folks are thanking Starbucks for their continued support of CCW/CHL/etc by not making a corporate policy.

Bradys, you poked a hornet's nest again. :evilgrin:

[PavePusher]

72. The B.C. makes one of the best stalking goats... 8>) n/t

[spin]

74. I'll have to email them and say that the next time I see a Starbucks ...

I'll stop in and try their product.