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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:07 PM
Original message
Three held in Palmview home invasion
Three men are being held for a Palmview home invasion where an 11-year-old boy was shot defending his mother.

snip

The homeowner said she and her 11-year-old son were in bed when she heard banging coming from the front door.

She got up to check and she saw two Hispanic males men wearing masks and armed with handguns walking towards her.

snip

The masked man kept telling her to open the door and she would not open the door.

The woman told deputies that the home invaders shot through the door and hit her son on the left hip area.


http://www.valleycentral.com/news/story.aspx?id=402271
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Men wearing masks and armed with handguns.
11-year-old boy was shot.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. And he returned fire
on the aggressors. Hit one, and ran the others off. Get ALL of the story, not just part of it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. 11 year old defends mother and self with firearm from adult intruders with murderous intentions.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Guns as solution to guns.
A good story to remind everyone when people object to my comparison to the ban on kiddie porn.

A consensus exists to protect that boy from sexual abuse and exploitation, but not from the gun which physically wounded him.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You are correct.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 07:21 PM by OneTenthofOnePercent
because guns, even the one that harmed him, can be used for self defense - a natural right.

Think about it... without those evil guns what would happen to that mother and her 11yr old son if they criminals happened upon them? A mother and a child probably don't stand much of a chance in combat/defense against henadful of middle-aged male assailants. VERY Rarely do young boys or women beat grown men in physical combat and even less often when outnumbered. Should they just submit to the will of the criminals? We have read numerous stories about criminals dispatching of victims even when they complied. Surely, logic suggests one should not lay faith in someone commiting an act of violence and crime against them.

The firearm is the best leveler of all time. It's the one tool that puts elderly ladies on the same level of force as murderers, rapists, and theives. This story is living proof of that fact - an 11yr old boy was able to run off grown men attempting to attack his mother.

Please... elaborate how the defensive use of firearms or the people who champion for the right to lawfully bear them are connected with child pornography? You're fucked up in the head, you know?
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Connected in this way: The thing itself is inherently dangerous to children.
The one is banned to prevent psychic harm.

The other is excused despite its physical harm.

The problem with your championship of guns inside the four corners of this story is that the assailants had them and were thus emboldened to commit their crime.

Maybe a different story will help make your case better.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. "the assailants had (guns) and were thus emboldened to commit their crime"
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 07:50 PM by OneTenthofOnePercent
Prove it.

I suggest that you, nor anyone, besides criminals can possibly know what motivates them to commit this crime. Many criminals commit grievous acts of violence without guns. Some without any weapons at all. Certainly history shows us this scenario is not only possible but a common occurrence. I feel it's just as likely that criminals need no emboldening whatsoever to commit heinous crimes. Perhaps correlating the number of guns out there to the violent crime rate might be a good start.

If you want us to buy your explanation of inanimate objects emboldening people... prove it.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. In this story, it's right there in front of us. Which is why you should focus your hope
on some future story where guns aren't at the inception of the trouble and simply save the day.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Guns did not cause this.
They were merely present in the situation. The CRIMINALS decided to commit the act of violence.
Are you of the belief that, if not for those evil iddy biddy widdle guns, these criminals would be law abiding upstanding citizens?

If you want to claim that "guns embolden criminals"... then prove it.
You use the concept all the time... should be easy you to prove so quit dodging.
You brought the statement to the debate and it's your responsibility to provide proof.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The story doesn't state that something OTHER than guns was used.
Prove what? I'm commenting on the facts as presented.

I think it's really incumbent upon you to post stories demonstrating the contrary if you want the contrary to be demonstrated.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Shares, think about it. All I ask is simple honesty.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 10:30 PM by TPaine7
If two average adult men wanted to have their way with an 11 year old boy and an average woman who they knew were alone in a house, which scenario would be more likely to embolden them?

a) Current America, where they could be met with deadly armed defense by gun(s) wielded the woman, the boy, or both?
b) A "gun free" America where neither the men nor the family had guns?

Don't dodge or ignore this, sharesunited, just answer honestly. Which would be a safer, more emboldening environment--in your honest judgment?

Two more questions, sharesunited:
c) Do you think that the gun emboldened the boy in his defense of his mother?
d) Do you think he would have been equally emboldened and successful if the scenario had been gun free?

All I ask is simple honesty.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Given the four choices, I choose a and c.
In doing so, I am trusting in the existence of a world in which:

11-year-old boys with access to guns don't shoot siblings and playmates with them;

Ex-husbands don't shoot their kids to get revenge on ex-wives;

Strangers with guns don't get the jump on moms at ATMs and in parking lots.

If you agree that the world is more complicated and the risks more variable than your multiple choice dichotomy, then you must be asserting that this is all still worth it and for the best.

I'm not quite with you there.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Thanks for answering and not dodging.
A and C are my choices as well. But my answer does not rely on a false and imaginary world.

You posit a world in which:

11-year-old boys with access to guns don't shoot siblings and playmates with them

I realize that 11 year old boys do sometimes shoot siblings and playmates, but the rate at which they do so is very small, is declining even as the number of guns increases, and is a small fraction of the number of kids who die from poisoning or drowning in pools or tubs. Guns are only singled out to support an agenda.

You posit a world in which:

Ex-husbands don't shoot their kids to get revenge on ex-wives

But guns are by no means necessary for a father to kill his kids. A father can just as easily strangle his kids with his belt (think belt control) or with his bare hands. There is a near infinite number of ways a criminal lunatic can kill his kids. What evidence makes you think that a man deranged enough to kill his own children to spite his ex-wife will be deterred by a lack of guns? (I am assuming that you are trying to prevent the children's deaths, not the children's deaths BY A GUN.)

You posit a world in which:

Strangers with guns don't get the jump on moms at ATMs and in parking lots.

If someone is following mom in a parking lot or a parking garage would she be better off with or without a gun? In a "gun free" world, would mom be better if her assailants used crossbows? How about if they boxed her car in with another and used baseball bats? Do you actually think it is hard for the average man--USING HIS MUSCLES ALONE--to get the jump on the average mom in a parking lot or as she stands at an ATM?

If you agree that the world is more complicated and the risks more variable than your multiple choice dichotomy, then you must be asserting that this is all still worth it and for the best.

The world is more complicated than my multiple choice dichotomy. (My multiple choice dichotomy simply applied your public policy preferences to the OP's scenario, it was not intended to encompass the complexity of every situation.)

But you are right, I am asserting that the right to keep and bear arms and the right to self-defense is still worth it and for the best. That is the crux of our disagreement.

I appreciate your honest and forthright answers. I have no choice but to respect your post.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Gosh. Could you go any deeper for the emotional jugular?
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 03:37 PM by PavePusher
"It's for the children and the moms and the ex-wives and....."

Sheesh, and the anti's say we are the paranoid and fearful ones.... whateveh.

P.S. Nothing mysoginistic in there either, eh? I guess in your world, women don't shoot anyone.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. "Prove What?"...
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 08:03 AM by OneTenthofOnePercent
You commonly espouse the view that guns embolden criminals.
This is a statement you have been bringing to the table for quite some time.
Quit evading and Prove It.

Surely, some statistics should show or suggest that firearm availability is correlated to the rate of violent crime.
Perhaps some other studies or research show the connection between firearm availability and the emboldment of criminals.

It's a viewpoint you brought to the table and the onus is on yourself to establish it's veracity.
That's how debates work. Until you establish veracity, your argument is worthless.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. You'd send him to jail, wouldn't you?
Or the mother right?

"How dare they defend themselves!"
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I have no criticism for the boy and his mother whatsoever.
They are just trying to get by in a world which you see fit to arm with guns and ammo.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Yeah, because those unconstitutional anti-gun laws you fantasize about would mean...
That all criminals would be unarmed.

Because criminals obey the law right?

Right?
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Relative scarcity is the goal. Halting and reversing the unrelenting abundance.
Reducing proliferation is an absolute good.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I see an internal contradiction in your arguments, sharesunited.
sharesunited Sun Jan-17-10 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I have no criticism for the boy and his mother whatsoever.



sharesunited Sun Jan-17-10 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #13
15.
...

Reducing proliferation is an absolute good.


Reducing proliferation before the family's gun was purchased would have put them at the mercy of criminals. The criminals could have done whatever they wanted--robbery, assault, rape, torture, dismemberment, kidnapping, murder.... Whatever they wanted.

Now the point that many miss is that the guns didn't give men that ability. Two average men against a 11 year old boy and his mother could usually accomplish the same things with their bare hands, assuming that the intended victims were unarmed.

The default position of gun control activists, you included, is that it is the duty of decent people to suffer robbery, assault, rape, torture, dismemberment, kidnapping, murder or WHATEVER THEIR CRIMINAL ASSAILANTS WANT TO DISH OUT. The alternative--arming themselves for defense of self and family--is much worse, according to gun control. Therefore, by your former position, it would be morally incorrect for people who don't currently own guns to continue proliferation--to arm themselves--it is their moral duty to remain unarmed. To be consistent, then, you must either condemn the boy and his mother or allow proliferation.

Which is it?

(I am hoping to welcome you to the side that supports the victims, the side that doesn't disarm them in the face of criminal aggression.)
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I don't blame proliferation on people who want to defend themselves.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 09:47 PM by sharesunited
The blame rests with manufacturers and sellers of guns and ammo. And of course groups like the NRA.

Scarcity will affect the allocation of personal resources one chooses to direct into guns and ammo, because they will become more expensive.

If you're really feeling afraid and vulnerable, it will be worth it to you to expend what it takes to obtain what will now be collectibles. If you're really desperate to impose your will on others, then this too will require a greater investment on your part, and more effort in identifying a provider.

The operative principle behind encouraging scarcity is that the likelihood of having a gun wrongfully pointed at you will be reduced. Because guns will become more dearly held as heirlooms and objects de'art and sentimental symbols of a bygone era.

Ammo likewise and even more so.

Just as Morgan silver dollars used to circulate in commerce and now are hoarded, treasured, and kept safely stored instead of deposited into vending machines.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. The evidence does not support your operative principle...
at least not in any meaningful way.

I concede immediately that if you removed all guns from the world tomorrow, gun deaths tomorrow would be exactly zero. (At least gun deaths early in the day would be zero. By tomorrow afternoon all bets would be off.)

The problems with your operative principle are legion. First, you cannot deprive the American people of guns. Neither can the President. Or the Congress. Or the Supreme Court. Or a combination of the three. It's politically and practically impossible.

We are not Europe, nor will we be reduced to European standards of criminal coddling except temporarily in enclaves like the District of Columbia and Chicago.

Second, as guns have increased crime has decreased. This shows that there is no ironclad principle that more guns = more crime or that less guns = less crime.

Third, lack of guns would embolden criminals, as illustrated in post 21.

Fourth, there are other weapons that are readily made to terrorize criminals. Some are even made in prison--a more restrictive anti-gun and anti-weapon environment than probably even you would favor in general society.

I'm glad you don't blame proliferation on people who want to defend themselves, sharesunited. I'm surprised to see that we agree on something like that. Unlike you, I blame ILLEGAL AND IMMORAL proliferation exclusively on those who willfully or carelessly give, lend or sell guns to bad guys.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. Yet another problem with the scarcity model--think of Rush Limbaugh and Paris Hilton
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 10:32 PM by TPaine7
Yet another problem with the scarcity model is that the rich will be proportionately far more armed than the poor. Upper middle class and rich, well educated, powerful people are more likely to be armed now. Scarcity would make it less possible for the poor--the people most at risk for home invasions, rapes, murders, assaults, etc., to be armed.

IMNSHO, making guns unnecessarily expensive is reprehensible.

Not that it is your intent, but a scarcity policy would ensure that the young black man who has struggled his whole life to survive and live an honorable life doing honest work--the young black male with a perfect criminal record who is one of the most vulnerable members of our society wouldn't be able to have a survival tool to defend his family. The same policy would ensure that Rush Limbaugh and Paris Hilton, those pinnacles of human decency and achievement, could each have an arsenal.

We disagree.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
36. "I don't blame proliferation on people who want to defend themselves."
But you have. Repeatedly.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. So we agree that those who have to survive in this world, who possess guns, and who use
them defensively are not to be criticized.

Congratulations, sharesunited.

Welcome to humanity, decency, and a measure of clear thinking.

Now if you could only see that we have not seen fit to arm people with guns and ammo--both existed before any of us were born--you would be well on your way to being free of the gun control reality distortion field.

The things you need to work on grasping next are

1) Society CANNOT disarm criminals--they can MAKE knives, crossbows, clubs, guns, bows, etc. Criminals make weapons in prison.
2) Society MUST NOT attempt to disarm the innocent. It has no legitimate power to disarm the innocent as it cannot protect them. It has no right to ask them to sacrifice their lives "for the common good."
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Scarcity, TPaine. Any progress in the right direction is welcome and an absolute good.
Across the board scarcity.

Less available to one and all, because in reality it is just a single pile from which both the righteous and the wicked must draw.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Your position is faith based and contradicted by reality.
Edited on Sun Jan-17-10 10:08 PM by TPaine7
For instance, see this thread, a thread you didn't bother to show your face in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... .

As the number of guns and / or the liberality of legal self-defense with guns has increased, the crime rate has plummeted, not only in DC, but in other locales as well. And cumulatively, throughout the US. I respect your right to your personal religious views, but that doesn't mean they have any basis in reality.

Faith-based public policy is like faith based bridge building. No one has the right to condemn others to die for their religion. That family has a right to arms.

Oh, and see post 18.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. You're not proving TP7 wrong.
Because you can't.

He's right. You can't disarm criminals. All we're trying to get you to do is see is that your radical anti-gun laws would hurt only law-abiding citizens. That's what happens when you trade freedom for safety.
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. As always, when the stories show that guns saved the day and weren't at the inception of the trouble
I will concede the point.

Naturally, I can't expect the same in return, because gun love and denial are such co-dependents.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Jeez, you still don't get it, do you?
It's not about "gun-love". :eyes:

I don't love my guns anymore then I love my car or a smoke alarm.

I do love what my firearms represent. My second amendment rights. My right to defend myself. This right matters and you shouldn't put your safety solely in the hands of others.

(BTW, you still can't prove TP7 wrong.)
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. If you remove guns from the OP's scenario
the men are MORE ABLE to dominate a woman and an 11 year old boy, not less able.

Removing guns makes the situation WORSE for the victims. This is most definitely not a "guns as solutions to guns" story.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #5
20. Blame the gun, don't blame the perp.
I seem to have missed your consensus on people with intentions of committing crimes. You've had plenty to say about the tool used, even though it's the same old tired line - GUNNZ BAD.

Any new news?



yawn
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Without a firearm the boy and his mother would have been at the mercy of 4 criminals.
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. At least they are willing to pull the home invasions
That fat ,lazy ,Americans wont do .
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. ...Choke...
I really need a waterproof keyboard....

:spray:
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rd_kent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
33. Wow, your ability to repeat what was already posted is astounding.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Dupe, I believe.
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