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Gun buyback, neighbors pray as a(n) (American) city yearns for peace

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:42 PM
Original message
Gun buyback, neighbors pray as a(n) (American) city yearns for peace
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/...
CITY OF NEWBURGH Reeling from violent spats, bloody killings and the mystery of a missing boy, Newburgh took a few steps toward peace and healing Saturday.

It started at the Activity Center on Washington Street, where a team of chaplains and police accepted guns off the street in exchange for grocery gift cards. A total of 19 guns, including four handguns and 15 hunting-style rifles, were collected.

Jesse Howard, the chaplain who led the effort, said his group, Chaplain Crisis Response Ministries, wanted to set up an outdoor collection depot at the corner of Broadway and Grand Street, near some of Newburgh's most violent neighborhoods. But county and city politicians, Howard said, wanted a more neutral site.

"There's a lot of hurt in this community," said Juanita Purdie, one of the ministry volunteers. "We've got to get these guns of the street; otherwise it will be nothing but pain."

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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wish I had some cash to go to these gun buybacks.
Seems like I could pick up some nice cheap guns from people looking to get rid of 'em.
Nothing would please me more than to buy an assault-weapon on the street with a bunch of onlooking grabbers.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. That would be cool.
Like garage sales, someone might toss away a truly valuable item.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
11. They often do. I've seen photos of these things where $500 Mausers are on the scrap heap.
Or worse.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Wowsers.
That's like comic books. I'm a comics collector and many times I've seen a bin of comics selling for a quarter or 50 cents when the NM ones are worth 45-50 bucks.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Of course the irony is, they always destroy the guns...
...not just the cheap, crappy pocket pistols, the old stuff that's broken and unusable, or the stuff that's illegally modified. But everything. I saw photos from one of these in California where they had a big stack of rifles. Most were old fashioned stuff, bolt-actions--I saw at least three Mosin Nagant 91/30s in there, plus what looked like an 8mm Mauser. Colt 1911s in the handgun stack. If they just filtered out the stuff that was worth something and sold it at bulk prices to licensed dealers, they'd make their money back for the buyback while still letting people get rid of guns they didn't want, and not destroying valuable pieces of hardware.

It's ridiculous.
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taurus145 Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. I like that idea.
I feel like an idiot for not thinking of it.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. Most of the guns at those events are trash guns.
I went to on and watched the whole day. Junk, junk, and more junk. Exactly one quality .45, three or four nines, a couple of .38s. Lots of old .22 rifles, cheap handguns, single shot shotguns, etc.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. I've always got room for an extra .22 rifle. n/t
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. These feel good initiatives never work
Criminals exchange their guns and then go and buy a bigger gun.
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
3.  How can the city "buy back" that which they never owned or sold? n/t
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. it is all about possession ..
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I respect your intended goal, I really do,
but it's hard to take the plan to reach that goal seriously.

Recently the crime rate dropped precipitously. I talked about it in a recent thread I started. Please try to overlook my smart-assedness--there are people in this place for whom it was truly appropriate--and just look at the facts http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... .

This is not an isolated incident. As contrary as it may be to your intuition, the same is true of the United States in general. As concealed carry, gun sales, and castle laws have increased, violent crime has fallen to its lowest level in decades.

It is my opinion that guns in the hands of good decent citizens has a suppressing effect on violent crime. Do you know of any evidence, any evidence whatsoever, that gun buybacks have lead to a decrease in crime in any city in the world? I don't.

I put gun buybacks--asking criminals to turn in valuable, functional guns that they would otherwise use in crime for less than astronomical sums of money--as a joke. A truly depressing, sad joke.

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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
16. crime has gone down in Newburgh too
but it is still a war zone..

I still don't understand how people being armed will help anything. The last thing we need in the city is more bullets flying.

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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I absolutely agree that as a general rule, we want less bullets flying.
Edited on Mon Jan-18-10 02:22 PM by TPaine7
Personally, I still want bullets to fly in specific situations. I'll give you a few examples:

1) I'm on a bus and a gangbanger gets on and starts terrorizing folks with his knife. I try to protect a little old lady and wind up against the bus wall with his knife to my throat and his bad breath in my nose. I would be very grateful if the genteel lady sitting opposite me let a carefully aimed bullet fly.

2) I am on the ground getting stomped by a group of thugs because I was wearing the wrong color when my car broke down in the wrong part of town. I would be very glad if a kind stranger whose car didn't break down at least threatened to let bullets fly (with the will to back it up if necessary), then got me to a hospital when the thugs dispersed.

3) I am lined up against the wall in a bank and the robber has just shot the two hostages next to me. He's smirking as he points his gun at my head. I would very much appreciate a police sniper rendering his brain non-functional before he can pull the trigger.

4) A female friend or relative is accosted by a knife wielding assailant who wants to use her for entertainment. I very much want her to have the ability to meet force with force and shoot to stop him in his tracks if necessary.

I still don't understand how people being armed will help anything.

Consider the situations above.

I too once supported severe gun control. I am very idealistic at heart. But I have learned that things are not what they appeared to be as far as gun control is concerned. I know people who have suffered dearly, who once had a very idealistic and unrealistic view of the world.

Violent crime is relatively rare, but it is better to be prepared for an event that never occurs than not be prepared for an event that does occur. Normal people wear seatbelts. Normal people have fire extinguishers. Normal people wear helmets. Normal people keep and carry guns.

The fact that normal people keep and carry guns has a helpful effect in my opinion. Here is some scientific evidence along with a story to support my position:


Scientific Evidence Part 1: Armed civilians fighting back are less likely to be hurt

Conventional wisdom holds that guns are not useful for self-defense. Defensive gun
ownership is a dangerous self-delusion, and groups like Handgun Control, Inc., the Brady Campaign] advise victims who are attacked by a rapist, robber, or other felon
that the best defense against injury is to put up no defensegive them what they want or
run.

This conventional wisdom persists only because the definitive contrary facts receive little
or no attention in the popular media. Criminological data and studies have definitively
established that, compared to victims who resisted with a gun, victims who submitted
were injured about twice as often; also, of course, non resisters were much more likely to
be raped or robbed.

Source: Don Kates, introduction to Armed: New Perspectives on Gun Control, (New York: Prometheus Books, 2001), 16.




Scientific Evidence Part 2: Evidence strongly suggests that criminals are deterred by the existence of armed citizens

There is direct, albeit not conclusive, evidence on the deterrent effects of victim gun use
from surveys of imprisoned criminals. Wright and Rossi interviewed 1,874 felons in
prisons in ten states and asked about their encounters with armed victims and their
attitudes toward the risks of such encounters. Among felons who reported ever
committing a violent crime or a burglary, 42 percent said they had run into a victim who
was armed with a gun, 38 percent reported they had been scared off, shot at, wounded, or
captured by an armed victim (these were combined in the original survey question), and
43 percent said they had at some time in their lives decided not to commit a crime
because they knew or believed the victim was carrying a gun....

Concerning the felons' attitudes toward armed victims, 56 percent agreed with the
statement that most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they
are about running into the police, 58 percent agreed that a store owner who is known to
keep a gun on the premises is not going to get robbed very often, and 52 percent agreed
that a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun.
Only 27 percent agreed that committing a crime against an armed victim is an exciting
challenge.

Source: Gary Kleck, The Nature and Effectiveness of Owning, Carrying, and Using Guns for Self-Protection in Armed, 319.




Story about people being armed doing good

In 1966 there were a series of brutal rapes in Orlando Florida. 78 Residents, mostly women, were buying
guns at the rate of two or three hundred a week. The Orlando Sentinel Star strongly disapproved.
Martin Anderson, the publisher, and Emily Bavar, supplement editor, went to the police chief, Carlisle
Johnstone, and insisted that he stop the gun sales.

The chief informed them that handguns were legal in Orlando. Since they couldn‟t achieve their ideal
disarmamentthey decided to teach the ladies to shoot and safely handle guns. The police and newspaper
cosponsored a training program, and the paper ran a front page story announcing the time and date.

...newspaper personnel and police made preparations for as many as four to five hundred
women. To everyone‟s utter amazement, more than twenty-five hundred women showed
up, carrying every type of firearm under the sun, some loaded and some unloaded. Knox
talked to one officer who was there who said he had never been so scared in his life.
Apparently the cars were parked blocks away from the park, and the women were
walking all over the place armed to their teeth. Some had their guns holstered, others had
them in their purses or pockets, and the rest had them in their hands....{79}


Not being prepared for such numbers, the officers sent the women home and regrouped. They set up three
classes per week. In five months, they taught more than six thousand women.

The results should interest anyone responsible for gun policy. Chief Johnstone expected a tremendous
deterrent effect. He was right:

the rape rate in Orlando, Florida fell from a 1966 level of thirty-six to only four in
1967. Before the training, rape had been increasing in Orlando, as it was nationwide.

Five years later, rape was still significantly below the preprogram level, even though,
during the five years after the training, rape climbed 308 percent in the surrounding
Orlando metropolitan area, the Florida rate escalated by 64 percent.

Another result of the Orlando training is that, while most other crimes escalated or
remained steady in Orlando in 1967, violent assault and burglary decreased by 25 percent
each, making Orlando the only American city of more than an hundred thousand in
population in which crime declined in 1967.

Source: my open letter to Obama at www.obamaonsecond.com



I found, in learning about the Second Amendment, gun laws and history, that it was helpful to examine the very best arguments from the opposing camps. The best arguments are not found on the nightly news or in most of the advocacy sites online, but in historical, criminological and legal books and articles.

In all modesty, I think I have assembled and presented some good arguments in my open letter cited above. I also highly commend to you a brief by police instructors--officers and professionals who teach police officers to do their job--on the uselessness of handgun prohibition. The brief is highly informative and will no doubt surprise you. It is a friend of the court brief to the Supreme court on the pending Chicago case and is available here http://www.chicagoguncase.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/1... .

I admire your idealism and your goals. In reading your posts thus far, however, I see that you are unaware of many facts--counterintuitive and difficult facts, perhaps, but facts nonetheless. You are also unaware of many of the best arguments for gun rights.

Even if you continue to support banning handguns, you will be a better advocate if you are aware of the strongest facts and arguments used by those who support handgun ownership.



PS: and my point wasn't merely that crime went down in the District and the US, it was that CRIME WENT DOWN AS THE NUMBER OF GUNS IN CIVILIAN HANDS, THE NUMBER OF CONCEALED CARRY PERMITS, AND THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE ABLE TO LEGALLY DEFEND THEMSELVES IN MORE SITUATIONS INCREASED. That flies directly in the face of the common contention that more guns and more liberal gun rights lead directly and inevitably to more violent crime--"blood in the streets."
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. You should repost this as an OP. It's really good stuff. nt
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. It's posts like this that help you keep your "awesome" status around here, TPaine. ;) (nt)
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 06:55 PM
Response to Original message
4. Things would go much better if they
got the criminals off the street.

Note that it was not the criminals who turned in any guns.
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
6. Guns "buy backs" may help some folks psychologically, but...
they have no effect on crime rates.

Newburgh has on-going problems with gang violence, and local authorities seem unable to stop it. Many of the battles are over another thing people want to ban: drugs. I sure hope no one attempts a drug "buy back" -- the country would become even more insolvent.

You will find that in general violent crime rates have been in a steady DECLINE over the last 12 years, even as the number of firearms in civilian hands has gone from around 190 million to over 300 million.

Violent crime, esp. homicides, are usually committed by felons attacking other felons. While these crimes can occur anywhere, they are heavily concentrated in urban inner-cities. The nearly intractable social problems which give rise to this violence will not be affected on iota by political confections like "buy backs."

As someone upstream has noted, when did the government conclude that guns originated with it, hence the expression "buy back"? Freudian slip?
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-17-10 10:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. I wonder...How they define "street"??? NT
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. They're focusing on the wrong population.
The people on the streets committing murders with illegal firearms aren't the same people who bring heirlooms to gun "buybacks", methinks. Like others here, I agree with the goal (wanting to reduce criminal violence), but this isn't a means to that end.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-18-10 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
14. How many rounds of Kum-Ba-Ya are they singing? N/T
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OttavaKarhu Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
22. Can just regular citizens organize gun buy backs?
As I read this I realized I was fuzzy on the rules. If private sales of firearms are acceptable, why couldn't any of us minister to the need for peace by setting up a table, printing up flyers, and buying back guns to get them off the street?

Just wondering.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Then you probably would not meet the definition
of "private buyer" (vs. dealer). Especially if the money you are spending is not really your own.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. Unless we were reselling the firearms, then I don't really think we'd fall under "dealer."
Not that I think such a set up would work, but who knows.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. The problem with trying to fit into "private buyer" is that
you are not looking to enhance "your private collection". "Dealer" is the "not private buyer/seller" catch-all, from what I understand.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I dunno, if I were to participate in any sort of by-back program...
..the ONLY reason I'd be doing it is to enhance my private collection :P ;) Even though most of the guns are garbage, the occasional gems would make it worth it I think :P
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-20-10 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. In that case, sure.
There have been new stories where folks looking to get good deals would go to the buy-backs and walk the line making higher offers.
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