Gun Owners, Unfiltered

[groovedaddy]

The National Rifle Association has long fulminated in the gun control debate in Washington like the Great Oz in the Emerald City. Now along comes Frank Luntz, a conservative Republican pollster who, Toto-like, has snatched back Oz’s curtain to reveal that gun owners favor much more reasonable gun controls than the gun lobby would ever allow the public to imagine.

Mr. Luntz queried 832 gun owners, including 401 card-carrying N.R.A. members, in a survey commissioned by Mayors Against Illegal Guns, the alliance of hundreds of executives seeking stronger gun laws. In flat rebuttal of N.R.A. propaganda, the findings showed that 69 percent of N.R.A. members supported closing the notorious gun-show loophole that invites laissez-faire arms dealing outside registration requirements.

Even more members, 82 percent, favored banning gun purchases to suspects on terrorist watch lists who are now free to arm. And 69 percent disagreed with Congressionally imposed rules against sharing federal gun-trace information with state and local police agencies.

These findings strike at some of the N.R.A.’s most sacred shibboleths. The survey questionnaire, devoid of boilerplate alarums about threatened gun rights, found some plain reason at work. It is clear that most members still oppose policies like a national gun registry. But 86 percent of gun owners also agreed that more could be done to “stop criminals from getting guns while also protecting the rights of citizens to freely own them.” And 78 percent of N.R.A. members said they should be required to report stolen guns to the police — to combat another source of underground arms dealing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/opinion/21mon4.html?th&emc=th

[sharesunited]

1. Big deal. There simply needs to be a freeze on new guns and ammo in the national arsenal.

Stop making that crap and numismatic principles will deal with what's already out there.

[AtheistCrusader]

4. National Arsenal?

So you want to stop buying guns for the miliAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA why do I even try to respond to you

[sharesunited]

5. The military have all kinds of weaponry which are not generally available to the public.

And for good reason.

Technology is the single most important reason why the 2A is utterly obsolete.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. On the subject of 'arms'

meaning man-portable weapons, that an individual (not a crew) might field, we lack only a couple features, such as select fire, and anything explosives-based like RPG's, LAW rockets (arguably a crew-served weapon) and such.

Though, explosives based weapons are just classified differently (Destructive Devices, not Firearms), if you want them, you can get them.

[sharesunited]

10. The scarcer and more scrutinized the weapon is, the less it is used in crime.

The more abundant, affordable, readily obtainable and tolerated the weapon is, the more it is used in crime.

Axiomatic.

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Actually, this is not universally true.

'Saturday Night Specials' are often villified as throwaway crime guns, when in reality, most are posessed by law abiding citizens. It's pretty much self-evident when you consider how many bryco .380's and the like have been produced and sold, versus how many are used in crimes. It's an affordable weapon for even poor and homeless people. You know, the segment of society most likely to need a firearm for self-defense.

Far more likely than I am, even though I have invested heavily in armaments for the home, and out and about town.

[sharesunited]

12. "Armaments for the home" sounds like It's Not Paranoia If They're Really After You.

[AtheistCrusader]

13. They don't call it the Right Arm Of The Free World for nothing.

Just kidding, that one's for hunting. .308 NATO would annoy the neighbors.

[taurus145]

22. C'mon, back that up.

I double dog dare ya!

You can't, but then I can't argue with feelings - at least your feelings. They trump all objective data in existence.

I won't argue with "Feelings". That tune helped get me laid a ton in the '70's.

[SteveM]

26. Axiomatic? Sounds like an early 50s drive-train, now obsolete.

The country is awash in cheap, tolerated, readily obtainable "prohibited" drugs. Yet, the rates of usage are generally stable.

You don't trust your fellows and it shows.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Hydramatic

holy shit, why do I know that.

[hack89]

17. Did the internet make the 1st amendment obsolete? nt

[Callisto32]

30. On obsolescence

While I disagree with your conclusion that it is obsolete, I wonder what obsolescence has to do with it? Just because something is obsolete, does not mean that it should be done away with. A Hudson Hornet is obsolete, its still a nice car. My old Gateway 486 is utterly obsolete, but I still keep it around. Since we are on the topic of firearms, a 1894 Winchester is obsolete, but I still have one. So do many others. I reject your ability to tell me that something should be done away with because you have deemed it obsolete. In short, your fiat is worthless.

[tburnsten]

2. Looks like a steaming pile to me

"gunshow loophole", do they mean the fact that it is legal in most states in the US for private citizens to sell privately owned firearms intra-state to other non-prohibited private citizens when they don't feel like owning them anymore, and that the NICS system is exclusively for the use of FFLs and is impossible for private citizens to use?

How bout the fact that FFLs (people whose job is selling guns, not someone who goes to the show to shop and maybe rid themself of a gun that no longer sees any use) follow the exact same procedures at gun shows that they do in their shop?

[AtheistCrusader]

3. Yeah, oh boy, let's prop up some right wing bullshit like the terrorist watch list.

Like it's something desirable.

Mayors Against Illegal Guns can shove this report up their ass, or George Bush's ass, I don't care which.


Fuck privacy, fuck due process, let's just heap it all on the bonfire of expediency for the political cause du jour.

[tburnsten]

9. I don't think anyone could put it better

[SteveM]

27. 2A defenders are often accused of not supporting the rest of the Constitution...

yet, how many of the NYC's readers would support legislation to ban gun sales to anyone on a Terrist Watch List?

How many of the NYC's editors would support such?

How many here at DU?

[krispos42]

6. Translation:

Gun owners, largely republican-leaning, are not against unconstitutional laws when placed in the framework of international terrorism.

Huh, never would have guessed that one.

[X_Digger]

7. And yet, 4M+ members continue to send money & renew..

If Luntz were correct in his assertions, why would so many continue to renew their memberships?

This is what, the fourth time this "poll" (I use the term loosely) has started a thread?

[pipoman]

23. Actually

it doesn't appear to be the polling firm who is distorting the results of this poll, it is the commissioners and the overtly anti-2nd Amendment media.

[pipoman]

14. How about we look at the actual questions and answers,

rather than a 4 sentence extrapolation by a strongly, notoriously biased source?

Question 1

In general, do you feel that the laws covering the sale of guns should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now?

53% of non-NRA members feel they should be left as they are.
only 26% 0f non-NRA members feel they should be more strict

Question 2

“Support for Second Amendment rights goes hand-in-hand with keeping illegal guns out of the hands of criminals.”

83% of NRA members and 73% of non-NRA members agree with this statement.

“Criminals who possess, use, and traffic in illegal guns should be punished to the maximum extent of the law.”

96% of NRA and 94% of non-NRA members agree

“Irresponsible gun dealers who break the law by knowingly selling guns to unqualified purchasers should be held accountable to the maximum extent of the law.”

90% of NRA members and 93% of non-NRA members agree

“The federal government should not restrict the police’s ability to access, use, and share data that helps them enforce federal, state and local gun laws.”

69% of NRA members and 73% of non-NRA members agree

Interesting that this is being cited as the argument that NRA members are opposed to the Tihart amendment. This is a completely inaccurate and in fact dishonest characterization..why not actually state what the Tihart amendment does and see what the responses would be? Because it wouldn't give the desired result, that's why.

“Federal, state and local governments should partner with the firearms industry to develop safeguards to identify criminals attempting to purchase guns.”

81% of NRA members and 83% of Non-NRA members agree

“Law-abiding Americans should have the freedom to choose how to protect themselves, based on their personal situation. No local, state or federal government should dictate this decision.”

92% of NRA members and 83% of non_nra members agree

“We can do more to stop criminals from getting guns while also protecting the rights of citizens to freely own them.”

86% of both NRA and non-NRA agree

Looking at those seven statements, which one do you agree with the most?

Guess....



#1 42% NRA and 33% non-NRA chose “Law-abiding Americans should have the freedom to choose how to protect themselves, based on their personal situation. No local, state or federal government should dictate this decision.”

#2 22% NRA and 19% non-NRA chose “Criminals who possess, use, and traffic in illegal guns should be punished to the maximum extent of the law.”

My time is running short now as I am getting ready to board a plane. I will place a link to the actual poll below. I am going to cover another question which is listed in this OP.

A proposal requiring all gun sellers at gun shows to conduct criminal background checks of the people buying guns.

69% of NRA members and 85% of non-NRA support this.

Fine I support it too..problem is the Constitution opposes it. The fed has no jurisdiction over intrastate, private transactions of personal property, that is up to each state. Do I support an amendment to the Constitution allowing this jurisdiction for the fed? Fuck no, not ever..and I suspect most Americans wouldn't support it either.

Please read the entire poll, it is interesting how Bloominidiot chose to word the questions in the poll he commissioned...push poll anyone?

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz_poll_questionnaire_and_responses.pdf

[GreenStormCloud]

15. The poll was deceptively worded. For example:

And 69 percent disagreed with Congressionally imposed rules against sharing federal gun-trace information with state and local police agencies.

The Tiahrt amendment does NOT stop police from accessing gun-trace information. It does stop news media from mining the data. And it does require that any trace must be part of a specific criminal investigation - IOW they can't go on fishing expeditions.

Even more members, 82 percent, favored banning gun purchases to suspects on terrorist watch lists who are now free to arm.
By that you mean the "no-fly" list that violates due process. You can't take away a right without due process of law.

That poll was a push-poll for political propaganda purposes and as such is worthless.

[Euromutt]

19. "It's not what you say, it's what people hear."

That slogan is actually part of the polling firm's logo. Right here, on the first page: http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz_poll_questionnaire_and_responses.pdf

Zogby is notorious for tailoring polls to get the results the party commissioning the poll wants; these guys appear to be worse.

[rrneck]

16. Frank Luntz political puree'. That fucker could spin an anvil. nt

[Euromutt]

18. Of course, Word Doctors had no way to verify the member status of respondents

There's also a certain disconnect between the actual questions and what MAIG claims the results are. The question regarding background checks at gun shows doesn't specify the details of the proposals. Accordingly, the result might be that respondents claiming to be NRA members favor making NICS accessible to private sellers; it does not necessarily mean that those people favor forcing private sales to go through an FFL.

Nor does the questionnaire adequately explain that the "Terrorist Watch List" is a load of unconstitutional garbage that contains only names with no further identifying information, so that anyone with the name "Gary Smith," "John Williams" or "David Nelson" may be denied. See the ACLU's page on the "Terrorist Watch List" for details: http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/terror-watch-list-counter-million-plus
Denying anyone any freedom on the basis of this Bush-era POS is unacceptable.

It's also very interesting which results MAIG opted not to put in their press release.

From the actual survey (http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/downloads/pdf/luntz_poll_questionnaire_and_responses.pdf)

26. In the Heller v. D.C. case, the Supreme Court ruled that there is a constitutional right to keep a loaded handgun at home for self-defense. Do you ____ with this ruling?

Of non-NRA respondents, 17% "somewhat agreed" and 76% "strongly agreed."

27. The Heller case concerned only federal laws. The Supreme Court will soon determine whether state and local gun laws should also fall under the Second Amendment. With that in mind, do you … with this statement:

“The Second Amendment should apply to state and local laws, not just federal laws.

Of non-NRA respondents, 22% "somewhat agreed" and 64% "strongly agreed."

Suck on that, Fenty, Daley and Bloomberg: an overwhelming majority of non-NRA respondents thinks your local efforts at gun control are garbage.

[beevul]

20. Mayors against illegal guns...

Baltimore Mayor Sheila Dixon, police and press in tow, made a very public point of “visiting the homes of gun offenders,” The Baltimore Sun reported. I guess that beat attending her arraignment in criminal court. “The mayor was charged last month with theft, perjury and misconduct after a state prosecutor’s probe,” the story continued. Dixon is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun coalition of mayors.

“Hartford’s mayor turned himself in Tuesday on charges of having a city contractor do $40,000 in work at his home and paying for it only after being confronted by investigators,” the AP reported. Mayor Eddie A. Perez “was charged with receiving a bribe and falsifying evidence … The contractor, Carlos Costa, told investigators he believed he would be shut out of lucrative city contracts had he not done the work for free ...”

Perez is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun coalition of ...

“Racine, Wis., Mayor Arrested On Child Porn Charge,” read the CBS2Chicago.com headline. “Gary Becker, 51, Released On Bond.”

Becker was a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun coalition ...

“Birmingham Mayor Larry Langford was arrested … on federal charges and is being held at the federal courthouse,” wrote reporter Val Walton in The Birmingham News.

“Langford accused in a US Securities and Exchange Commission lawsuit of not disclosing $156,000 in payments … as part of a plan to secure Jefferson County financial business,” the story explained. Langford is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s anti-gun …

“A municipal court judge in this shore town found the mayor of Jersey City guilty of obstructing justice and resisting arrest in a clash with a police officer a little more than a year ago,” Jonathan Miller wrote in The New York Times. “The mayor, Jerramiah T. Healy, said in a news conference after the verdict that he had no intention of resigning his office …”

Healey is a member of New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s …

“The former Detroit mayor is moving to a new home…a 15-by-10-foot county jail cell where he will spend the next 120 days for lying during a civil trial to conceal an extramarital affair,” Time Magazine reported. “ Kilpatrick resigned in September after 8 months of accusations, denials and litigation that cost the city millions of dollars …”

Kilpatrick was a member of …

“Potential jurors’ opinions of Jackson Mayor Frank Melton were mixed … during the second day of jury selection in the upcoming federal civil rights trial of Melton …” Kathleen Baydala wrote in The Clarion Ledger. “Melton accused of violating search-and-seizure laws related to role in warrantless raid five to 25 years in prison if convicted on all counts.”

Melton is a member …

“More than a year after denying it, the newly elected mayor of Portland has admitted having a sexual relationship with a male teenager in 2005,” the AP reported.

Do I even have to tell you?


http://www.gunsmagazine.com/digital/G0609.htm?page=58

Evidence Shows MAIG Uses Names Without Permission
Buckeye Firearms Association

As a growing number of mayors in Ohio and around the country resign from Mayors Against Illegal Guns (MAIG), New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg's gun control group, new evidence suggests some of their names have been added to the member list and used to promote Bloomberg's political agenda without their knowledge or permission.

"Mayor Robert Shiner" (Mentor, OH) was listed in a letter from MAIG to Congress in June 2009 opposing reforms to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE), as well as in a full page advertisement opposing nationwide reciprocity of concealed handgun licenses.

Mayor Keith Hoffman (East Berlin) said his participation, which began about a month ago, resulted from a misunderstanding of the group's objectives, and he is currently trying to get his name off the list. "It was a mistake really," he said. "They swindle you in and then put your name on the list."

Mayor Dale Strasser (Brunswick, OH) found his name used in MAIG advertising when it was actually the Brunswick city manager, Robert Zienkowski, who signed up for the group.

According to the NRA, at least 28 other mayors have appeared on the MAIG membership list despite the fact they were not mayors of the localities as advertised:

Matthew J. Avara - Pascagoula, Mississippi
Jean M. Benson - Palm Desert, California
Cary Bozeman - Bremerton, Washington
Jim Brown - Lockland, Ohio
Joseph J. Cisco, Jr. - Ellwood City, Pennsylvania
James C. DiNardo - Hazlet, New Jersey
Joseph V. Doria, Jr. - Bayonne, New Jersey
John Glanzer - Newberry, Florida
Andrew G. Humphrey - Wayzata, Minnesota
Richard H. Hyde - Waukegan, Illinois
Jack Killion - Pennsauken, New Jersey
Joseph S. Kroll - Haverhill, Florida
Eugene Kulick - Little Falls, New Jersey
Raymond F. Marin - North Miami Beach, Florida
Bruce Malcolm - Fernandina Beach, Florida
Lorraine H. Morton - Evanston, Illinois
Rita L. Mullins - Palatine, Illinois
Mark Roberts - Douglass, Kansas
Heinz Rodgers - Edwardsville, Kansas
Marc Searl - Hemet, California
Joseph D. Serrano, Sr. - Santa Fe Springs, California
David Shumaker - Bristol, Tennessee
Emilia M. Siciliano - Shrewsbury, New Jersey
David C. Strong - Winter Park, Florida
Gary Van Eyll - Chaska, Minnesota
Bill Welch - State College, Pennsylvania (died)
Carl Wilkes - Merriam, Kansas
William P. "Will" Wynn - Austin, Texas


http://www.biggamehunt.net/sections/Politics/Evidence-S...

Not exactly a trustworthy outfit.

[pipoman]

21. Wow

tremendous post!

[AtheistCrusader]

28. What the blue (unprintable) does this have to do with anything

"“More than a year after denying it, the newly elected mayor of Portland has admitted having a sexual relationship with a male teenager in 2005,” the AP reported. "

By all accounts, the 'teenager' in question was 18 when they had sex. Legal age. Since no laws were broken, what the hell does this have to do with anything at all? You going to get on a republican's ass for not spilling every last detail of his love life on the campaign trail?

I agree the MAIG group is irrelevant at best, and downright underhanded on a couple points, but let's keep it to relevant facts, shall we?

[tburnsten]

31. It might have been extra-marital

And plenty of politicians' careers end because of those.

[beevul]

32. A fair criticism....

That is an entirely fair criticism.

Still, elected officials that lie to the public about ANYTHING, seem less than trustworthy to me.


Thats the commonality.



I do agree though, keep it relevant.

[pipoman]

24. BTW

The title of this opinion piece (and thus your OP) is so unbelievably dishonest it is just....fucking....unbelievable..

[Endangered Specie]

25. hmm survey by anti-gun group nets anti-gun results, whodathunkit?