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"A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder"

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armueller2001 Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:01 AM
Original message
"A gun in the home is 22 times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder"
This website has some details on the dataset that was used, and inherent problems with the study.

http://www.guncite.com/gun-control-kellermann-3times.ht...

Interesting things to note
-The study involved less than 400 households
-It made no distinction as to who brought the gun - was it in the house, or did an intruder bring it?
-A vast majority of defensive gun uses involve the perpetrator NOT being killed. They either get shot an injured, held at gunpoint until police arrive, or run off and stop their attack at the sight of a gun.

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Craftsman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Figures don''t lie, but liars can figure
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. Uh-Oh. "Calling you-know-who, calling you-know-who"
:popcorn:
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T Wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. Can we provide guns to all rethug homes? "A loaded gun with a hair-trigger in every GOP household"
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 08:14 AM by T Wolf
is a slogan I can get behind.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. I understand the sentiment...
but violence in the home is never a good thing. I don't care what someone's politics are. A home should be a safe and welcome environment for everyone involved.

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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
5. Fewer cops and longer response times, so
here is how I stay safeinOhio and you and your family can stay safe too. 1. Put dead bolts on all exterior doors. 2. put 3 inch screws in all hinges and strikers. This will delay entry until you can get to your safe room. 3. prepare at least one safe room with another fortified door, touch pad lock, telephone and your fire arm. 4. Because you'll now have time, you can put a trigger lock on your weapon if you have kids they will be safe all of the time. In the unlikely situation that the intruders tries to kick in the door of the safe room, then you can shoot to protect yourself. You have already called 911.
Then if your not worried about you and your families safety, just buy a gun and blast away. Yheee Haaww.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yeah, 'cause everyone has the money to build a "safe-room". Sure. n/t
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. $3.00 for a few 10x3 wood screws
touch pad lock $100. How much for your 1911 or 870 express? What is your life and family worth to you?
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. apartment manager says buy a gun, won't
allow your Tim-Taylor-wet-dream.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. You will need...
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 06:03 PM by PavePusher
several hundred dollars for a sturdy door and security frame (most common hollow-core doors are almost paper), proper security rated striker plates and hinges for your new lock and door, something better than a $100 lock if you want it to last longer than one forceful whack with a 5-lb. sledge or a good pull on a pry-bar, reinforcing for the surrounding wall area, depending on room size and remoteness of house you may want to ensure proper ventilation (battery powered) and lighting (also battery).

It starts to get fairly involved if you want something that will last longer than a healthy kick.

A solid, dependable, reliable and safe .45 calibre 1911 pistol can be had for $350-600 dollars new, sometimes less used, will last several lifetimes, and encourage independence and self-reliance with proper training.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. Anyone who relies on a gun as their only defense is a fool.
Definitely, strengthen the home entry points, and don't forget the windows. Make a safe room.

Use pick resistant locks. Most deadbolts can be picked in a few minutes.

Install alarms. Don't bother using one of those monitor companies. Just have a good system that is LOUD. You want it to wake you up.

Buy several books on real-world self-defense. (I can recommend some titles.) Buy some books on "How to Burgle." "How to defeat alarms" and such. You can find them on Amazon. It helps you evaluate how resistant your residence really is.

If your state allows it, get your CCW. Even if you don't plan to carry, the classes are worth it. Learn your state laws.

Now, you are ready to buy the guns and accessory equipment.
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. That's good if you're in a Hollywood movie
But realistically, can you get your wife and kids awake, alert, and positioned in your safe room in under 15 seconds? Because if there is a single weak point in that fortress such as windows (Unless you've barred them all which leads to a whole slew of other problems) it will take a determined invader no longer than that to be inside (Being already awake, alert, and ready to handle resistance).

By all means, harden your exterior, but forget the "Safe Room," it's nearly worthless. Better to invest the money in qualified close combat training. Books on the subject are useless, and no substitute.
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Flyboy_451 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. home protection
The subject of how to protect yourself and your loved ones within your home is a complex topic at best, but here is a copy of a post that I made on another forum some time ago that presents some viable ideas to begin making your family safe....

Home alarms are one of many tools that can be employed to secure a home. As a police officer, I highly recommend that anyone have an alarm, with a LOUD audible siren, particularly if you live in a residential neighborhood. While this does act as a deterrent to burglary in some cases, it is less effective in others. This is because criminals also know that it will take some period of time before anyone arrives as a result of the alarm being triggered. Most alarm monitoring companies place at least one call to the residence, if not more, to verify that the alarm is legitimate, prior to dispatching assistance.

I have worked many calls in which an alarm was sufficient to ward off an attempt to enter a home. I have also worked many calls in which the alarm had little or no effect, whether the home was occupied or not. Just as an alarm is not the ultimate guarantee against unlawful entry, neither is simply having a gun. Both are tools that we use to try to make our homes and families safe.

With all that being said...If a home invasion is not prevented by an alarm, there is a period of time in which you will be on your own until some form of help arrives. I do not know what response time for alarm monitoring companies in this area is, but my departments average response time last year was 9.2 minutes. That is a long time to be without help if you have no means of protecting yourself. A multi-tier system is typically the best way to help insure the safety of our loved ones, with things such as outdoor lighting, alarms, a dog that barks at strangers being the first tier, second tier tools include knowing what areas of your home are easiest to defend yourself and your family from, having a plan that all members of the family are aware of, and executing that plan. Lethal force is the final tier of home and family defense, not because it is least important, but because it is the least desirable to have to employ. Serious legal ramifications can exist even if you are legally justified in use of force.

Simply having a firearm available is not enough either. Training is a HUGE benefit when it comes to defending your home or family. Simply having a gun is not useless, but it is far from the ultimate protection. Having a gun AND having a sufficient level of training increases the odds of surviving a violent encounter by large magnitudes. By ignoring ANY means of protecting your home and family, I think you have seriously undermined your goal of protection. I would not say that everyone should have a gun, yet I do think that everyone should consider the possibility that a firearm coupled with appropriate training can and has been the difference between life and death.

Even though some states allow for the use of a firearm in defense of property, I am of mixed feelings on such laws. My personal opinion is that no material possessions are worth killing for, but at the same time, if someone were to attempt to steal firearms or other items that could be used to endanger others down the road, a moral contradiction exists. As a general rule, I recommend that people not endanger themselves or their families by confronting criminals. Instead, try to be a good witness, get accurate descriptions, ect. Let those of us that have chosen to confront the criminal element of society do it for you. Not only are we better prepared and equipped to do so, but if something were to happen to you, the information you have will be lost to us. And I am sure that your family would prefer that you joined them for breakfast in the morning. Resisting with lethal force, has it's place and I do not discourage anyone from protecting themselves or their family, but be smart about it. Use lethal force as a LAST RESORT and do everything that you can to avoid it. Then, when the time comes that it is required, act decisively, aggressively and explosively!!




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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. We do get the better class of cop in this forum
Thank you for the advice, Flyboy. It all sounds very solid.

It's nice how we get LEOs who take the whole "to protect and serve" thing very seriously, like you and paulsby, weighing in here.
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Flyboy_451 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Have not posted on the forum
in a long time mostly because I have not seen very many discussions that were worth taking the the time to reply to.

It's pretty amazing that people who think of themselves as progressives can be as narrow minded and hateful as the people on this forum appear to be. The funny part is that I do not consider myself as a progressive, liberal , conservative or any other cheap title that someone would like to attach to their beliefs. I am simply a person that feels that our country is in a downward spiral that needs to be corrected before we completely lose control.

As far as gun control is concerned, I think you can write any law that you want and it will have almost no effect on violence in America. The problem is not so simple as many on both sides would like to believe. The violence will only end when we succeed at transforming peoples view of themselves and their values.

The largest problem that I see in my daily duties is not violence, poverty, guns, or education. These are all results, not causes. When referring to violent crime, it is largely perpetrated by younger, lower income, inner city inhabitants. These people do not need a better economy, a better job, a nicer neighborhood or another overly expensive government program to improve their lives.

What they need is to learn the true definition of respect, beginning with self respect; the value of such things as integrity and honesty. They need to learn that to succeed in life requires effort and that the success that comes from that effort is something that is truly respectable. Until we change the way that these people view themselves and the world around them, violence will always be a part of their life and a way to gain respect from those they surround themselves with. The reason that more gun laws, or more tax payer handouts to these people will not reform them is because they have no desire to change the way in which they live their life.

An incident occurred a few weeks ago on my shift that illustrates this point quite well. After completing a call I was engaged in conversation by a boy of about six years old. He was asking about why I was a cop, did I like it, ect. After answering some questions I asked him if he wanted to be a cop when he grew up. His answer..."Nope, I'm gonna sit at home and wait for my check like my mom does." This is the apathy and disregard for ones self that has lead to much of the problem that our society now faces, and until it changes, we are doomed for more of the same.

JW






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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Best. Post. Ever. n/t
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Uben Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
8. And, it only stands to reason...........
....that a knife is 10,000 times more likely to kill a family member and a rope is a million times more likely to kill a family member than an intruder. Maybe that's because the chance of a family member being in the home is about 10 miilion times more likely than there being an intruder in a house!

But, if there is an intruder, there is a billion times more of a chance he will be shot by a homeowner who owns a gun than one who doesn't!

Mincing words is easy. Protecting one's family and possessions is essential. Buy a gun, learn how to use it, store it safely.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. And if you're not suicidal, and observe basic gun safety...
... the likelihood of a firearm in the home being used on a family member becomes vanishingly small, even by Kellermann's tendentious math. Certainly smaller than its chance of being used on an intruder. (I wonder if he controlled for how many of the firearms kept in the home had been bought specifically for the purpose of committing suicide?)

This is the problem with the epidemiological approach to firearms: it assumes that exposure to the pathogen places everybody more or less equally at risk. It doesn't take into account that households with members with a history of high-risk behavior such as violence and drug use are much more likely to experience negative effects involving firearms. That's why these studies keep picking control groups that don't begin to resemble the study groups: the researchers ignore the fact that gun are not bacteria or viruses.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
11. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. self deleted
Edited on Thu Oct-15-09 02:11 PM by Hoopla Phil
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-15-09 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
16. The scientific method...
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-16-09 06:25 AM
Response to Original message
19. Kellermann has been throughly
hashed over and completely debunked. Only gun control noobs here in the gungeon try to cite the Kellermann nonsense.
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