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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:46 PM
Original message
You know, I used to support absolute gun freedoms
But lately - especially with all these RW fringers out there, I'm beginning to think maybe Americans aren't grown up enough to have guns.

Face it, we've shot and killed several of our presidents, as well as countless leaders and other American heroes.

And with the militias popping up once again (yes, there really are militias) perhaps we should just go "Gun Grabber" and take away everyone's guns.

I mean when you have folks like this nutter:




what else should I think?
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
1. It doesn't matter what we think. That right is guaranteed in the
constitution. Banning guns won't stop assassinations or murders.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. So was slavery. We got rid of it.
And I'm beginning to think letting every Bubba, Jethro and Cletus have a gun may not be a good idea
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. Ban guns? No!
Ban stupid stereotypes? Hell, yes!

Quit trolling.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #3
48. The right to own a slave was never stated in the constitution
the right to own a gun is.
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HALO141 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
53. no it wasn't. n/t
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
59. Please read the document you seem intent on destroying.
Please cite the paragraph and line that makes owning a slave a right.
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JeanGrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #3
82. You won't get rid of this. And I don't remember reading a right
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 07:41 PM by JeanGrey
to own a slave.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
101. And by getting rid ot it....
...we gave more freedoms to people, not less.
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
105. has anyone ever told you to shut the fuck up with your ignorant shit?
if not, consider it done.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #105
106. Thank you for the thoughtful and insightful discourse you bring to the table
I'm sure we all look forward to hearing more of your wisdom WRT to firearms related issues in the future
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. feel free to search my name inre: the gun forum
smart ass.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #109
113. I searched
I'm not all that impressed. Was there something in particular you wished to draw my attention to?
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #113
117. the very fact that I am not here to impress you
is exactly what I wanted to draw to your attention.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. well, you have succeeded good day NT
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. feeling is mutual. good day to you. too. shall I show you our handy
dandy ignore feature. use it liberally.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #119
121. I never use the ignore feature the stupid posts are much too fun to read NT
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. Never....is a long time. I really don't get it. Are you defending
what Taverner said in either the OP or the comment to which I replied...?
you do realize that Taverner and I have been going at it for a while now, right?
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #122
124. I was responding to what I felt was a childish out burst
I certainly don't agree W/ Taverner. I am quite likely the epitome of all he thinks is wrong W/ this country. I assumed that you were merely another grabber trolling the 'gungeon" was I incorrect?
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. good lord. I have been "arguing" with some of Taverner's ideas for
some time now. Yes, it was childish of me but, I have had it up to here with some of the stuff he has been spouting lately.

I do not post a lot in the Guns Forum, this is true but to think that I am another grabber trolling the 'gungeon"
should be laughable to be anyone here.

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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #125
126. Look
You seem like an incredibly interesting person and i'd much rather be your friend than your enemy can you start over?
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. heh :-)
it is too late to edit and I was talking to Taverner but, if you would like, WE can start over.

Hi. My name is Tuesday Afternoon and I welcome you to DU.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #127
128. My apologies, I meant WE
Thank you for welcoming me I'm Tom
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #128
129. Nice to meet you Tom
I will pop in the Gungeon from time to time. I am a gun owner although for privacy reasons I don't post a lot about the types and amounts. Enjoy it here. It is a big place with many varied forums, ideas and people.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #129
130. That's wise NT
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Howardx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. blah blah blah
the constitution can and has been changed in the past.
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Theobald Donating Member (411 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
65. So change it or try and change it; otherwise your
point is meaningless.
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movonne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. I don't think we should ban guns...but there are certain types of
weapons that should be..also they should make owning a gun like getting a drivers lic..know where the guns are and who is getting them...I'm sure some will find many reasons this should not happen...
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
71. Certain types of weapons are already tightly controlled...
All automatic weapons are as tightly controlled in the USA as howitzers, tanks, and bombs, for example, as are all non-automatic weapons easily convertible to full auto. So are all firearms over .51 caliber (shotguns and some over-.51 hunting rifles exempted), sound-suppressed firearms, disguised firearms, sawed-off rifles and shotguns, and so on.

The problem with licensure is the fact that we have a large and well-funded lobby in this country that seeks to ban whole classes of lawfully owned civilian guns, and to sharply reduce the number of legal gun owners. Given how licensure was abused in the UK and Australia, and how the U.S. gun-control lobby continuously demonizes those of us who DO hold state-issued gun licenses, I don't think licensure for ownership is a realistic proposition in this country; there is just too much intent to abuse it.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
37. The Constitution doesn't GUARANTEE anything
It merely enumerates rights that exist wholly separate from any document or the decree of any government. You could abolish the entire document tomorrow and I would still have the human right to defend my life and my freedom
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
54. "Human rights"
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 03:55 PM by billh58
to defend life and freedoms exist in totalitarian and dictatorial societies as well, but are much more difficult to achieve or exercise. Our Revolutionary War against a British tyrant, and its subsequent positive outcome, gave us the "right" to enumerate the Rights stated in our Constitution. Any realistic "rights" remaining after the abolishment of our Constitution would be entirely dependent upon who is allowed to dictate the enumeration of those rights: the People, or a tyrant. In the event of the latter, we would be back to square one.

In a completely anarchical society, "human rights" are reduced to survival of the fittest through force, guile, and intimidation. The entire concept of, and necessity for, civilization IS a commonly agreed upon enumeration of certain morally-accepted rights, which are reinforced by codified law. Throughout human history, "rights" have either been attained through force, benevolence, or by common agreement.

And you are correct: the only thing that any of us is "guaranteed," is eventual death.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #37
135. Not with a gun you wouldn't
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #135
138. No; even if you were stripped of the ability, you cannot be stripped of the right
Edited on Sat Sep-26-09 03:53 AM by Euromutt
That's what makes it a right. The citizens of, say, Burma or Iran have the right to express dissent from the government, even if their governments deny them the exercise of that right.

Similarly, a government can deny its citizens the exercise of the right to protect themselves using firearms, but that doesn't actually cause the right to cease to exist.
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billh58 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. Exactly, and
basic "rights" also include the right to be racist, bigoted, hateful, stupid, ignorant, and irritating. Morality and civility can not be legislated.

Aggressive or threatening anti-social behavior, however, CAN be beat about the head and shoulders with a big stick until it is no longer a threat.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
134. I think it is time to change the constitution.
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. I share your concern, but that would be lighting a match in a gas field.
It would explode.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Sigh - I know you're right
How I wish you were wrong, but unfortunately you are right
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yodoobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
4. The militias never went away
They just weren't as noticeable because they had their guy in the whitehouse.

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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
39. Militias
You might want to do some research. Most of the Militia types have no more use for George the Second than they do for the New Boss(same as the Old Boss)
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Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
7. That picture is reason enough for me to want to keep a gun in my house.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 12:52 PM by Lost-in-FL
Sorry, but if the constitution guarantees my right to protect myself against conservative assholes I will use my right.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. Damn, you're telling me
When I first saw that pic I wasn't sure whether I should (1) buy a bunch of guns to protect me from Jethro there or (2)try to take everyone's gun away
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Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
24. Numero 1. nt
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Thing is I don't want to own a gun
Especially with kids in the house

My stance has always been that you can have a gun as long as I can have the right NOT to have a gun

But shit, the times they are a changing
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Lost-in-FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. I don't either.
My stance changed a few years back and now with the birthers and the KKK-lite things seem to me to be getting "possibly" worse.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Too bad you just can't rent a gun for a few years...
Of course that still leaves the 3 and 5 y o + Gun equation...

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madmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. The key to this equation is education, early and often, just like having a sharp knife around. You
teach them to leave them alone and later when they are old enough you teach them how to use them (the right way) and respect them.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
107. Or like having deadly chemicals such as cleaning fluids.
Any home has many things which could be as deadly to a child as a gun if they got into them. Safe storage is the watchword when it comes to all things.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
41. get a secure means of storage NT
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
62. You can... kinda
firearms tend to keep their value for very long time if maintained.

You could buy a $500 firearm today and sell it in a couple years and likely get at least $350 for it. Think of it as a $50 per year rental.

As far as children go I have been very fond of gunvault.



Simple, cheap, can be opened quickly and good for preventing casual access.
It won't stop a determined thief with tools but it will stop a child or guest from gaining access.


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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #26
40. Show us where anyone is trying to force you to have a gun... n/t
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
73. Then don't.
You do have that choice, and always will. I would merely ask that you respect our family's right to choose for ourselves, and as it turns out we choose differently (having both guns and kids).

On a per-owning-household basis, though, guns are about 1/10 to 1/100 as dangerous as home swimming pools for young children; compare the child gun accident death rate to the child drowning rate sometime. Neither is a significant risk if intelligently managed, though.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 04:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
139. Frankly, the sign worries me more than the pistol
Given the reference to the Jefferson quote about the tree of liberty needing to be "refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants." I cannot wrap my head around the notion, especially after eight years of the Bush administration's shenanigans, that anyone could--let alone would--think of Obama as being a "tyrant."

Unless Mr. Live Free or Die over there is referring to using his own blood as the "natural manure."
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. It is also possible that he means...
metaphorical political 'blood', not actual physical blood.

In the several interviews he did, I never heard anyone ask him about this.

To play devils advocate though, that is one of the reasons for having the Second Amendment. 'Course he'd have to find enough people to agree with his proposition. I'm not yet particularly worried. Like many of the grabbers here, "much sound and fury, signifying nothing...".
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #141
142. Fair point, but it does illustrate a problem
Namely, who gets to decide that the situation has become bad enough that armed insurrection against the federal government is justified? I'm not going to trust the judgment of someone who's so hare-brained as to think that a president who is criticized for being too deferential to Congress, and for being too conciliatory toward the opposing party, is a "tyrant." I mean, good grief, we've had almost seven years of the Bush administration taking a massive crap all over the Bill of Rights, but did you see any of those guys open carrying and waving Gadsden flags then? Hell no! But Obama has some suggestions with regard to health care reform (and even if you don't agree with the specifics, it's hard to argue American health care doesn't need a massive overhaul) and these guys get all bent out of shape. How am I supposed not be derisive?
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dbonds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
8. You can't do that, and it wouldn't work if you could...
The nutters have prepared for that day. They have caches of weapons buried.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Sigh - maybe FEMA camps for those assholes isn't such a bad idea
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Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
58. You gonna feed em ?
Or will they be picking oats out of the horseshit , Andersonville style ?
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #58
103. I'm quite sure he'll have some showers prepared for our arrival NT
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #10
84. You'd have to get rid of more than the 2nd Amendment for that.
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cliffordu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
11. Good luck with that
I guess taking away 2 hundred million guns is doable.


Really.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Well I never said it would be "possible"
And yeah, its up there with a magic ray that makes everyone talk in cadence....

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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. I think your estimate is short
by a hundred million or so
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. What we need are better Americans
Our schools are suffering. Our kids are bombarded by a one-two punch of relentless marketing and poor nutrition, not to mention a dearth of role models with decent impulse control. Don't blame the NRA for this one - our collective malaise allowed this to happen.

Better schools, better food, better parenting skills, improved education standards, and a strong job market. If we can get these, then we'll have future citizens who can actually be trusted with firearms.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. We can start by eliminating Beck, Limbaugh and the other facets of hate radio and tv
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'm with you there
If Beck drives off any more advertisers, however, he just might take himself off the air, which would be just fine. :hi:
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I get the impression Fox is less concerned with profits and more with their agenda
Which is Murdoch Murdoch Uber Alles...
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
44. So, you want to abolish the first amendment also? NT
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 12:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. Now, will this thread be moved to the Gun forum
Just asking

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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Don't give the mods any ideas...
I think it should stay in GD, as this is a public safety issue as well as a gun issue. But then again, I'm not a moderator.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I probably should have posted it there in the first place
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question everything Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #20
93. Sorry, I did not alert
but have seen similar threads disappear.
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
21. I prefer to let law enforcement deal with the militias..
They seem to be doing ok at it so far...

Who knows, a guy like this could be FBI fishing for whackos to approach him to find out who to watch...

Would be an easy way to find em.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Personally, I cheered when they took out the Waco compound
And on Ruby Ridge, I blame Randy Weaver for killing his kids. He didn't have to keep them there.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Wow. Just.... wow.
:puke:
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. Let's look at Waco. David Koresh was a dangerous, armed psychopath
He and his compound were armed to the teeth

They were using the children there as shields

And they were CONVINCED this was the apocalypse

You don't really reason with those kinds of folks

So after a while of twiddling their thumbs, they decided to go in. And guess what, Koresh set fire to the place!

So were we supposed to sing Kum Ba Ya until they came out?
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TxRider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Truthfully?
The county sheriff could have walked to the door, knocked, and arrested him.

And served a search warrant and searched the place easily.

Koresh invited the ATF to come see his "weapons"...

The masked men in black with assault rifles climbing into the windows in the dark is what brought the reaction it did. Especially when the ATF knew they had been tipped off.

It was a totally unnecessary and stupid use of force.
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Will E Orwontee Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #47
90. Waco was murder
Koresh invited the ATF to come see his "weapons"...


True, there was never a need for the tactics used.

Two ATF agents undercover in the compound shot target practice with Koresh a few days before the raid, two AR-15's were apparently provided by the agents (converted? -- entrapment???) and Sig-Sauer pistols and ammo for the rifles and pistols was provided by Koresh. The two agents and Koresh fired the rifles. Amazingly an Agent offered his service weapon (38 Super Les Baer Custom) for Koresh and two unidentified Davidian males to shoot.

Remember the "where's Robert" question Koresh asked in the 911 tape?

"Robert" was Special Agent Robert Rodriguez and he tried to persuade the command to not do a dynamic entry . . Koresh knew they were coming . . .

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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Lets look at Vernon Howell ( David Koresh' real name)
So far F troop has not been able to produce a single automatic weapon from Waco. The average was two firearms per adult at Waco, the average Texan owns four.

They were using the children there as shields

Is that why the kids were in an underground bunker?

And they were CONVINCED this was the apocalypse

And it seems they were right

You don't really reason with those kinds of folks

Not when you have tanks

So after a while of twiddling their thumbs, they decided to go in. And guess what, Koresh set fire to the place!

Or the Cs grenades and WP smoke grenades that F troop had did

So were we supposed to sing Kum Ba Ya until they came out?

Turn off city water turn off the power no food goes in they'd have surrendered in about 3 weeks







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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. The kids were all in an underground bunker with BULLETS in their heads
Koresh, or "Vern" as you want me to call him either killed them or had them killed.

Sorry, your buddy Vern was a dangerous psychopath.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Cite please? NT
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #55
100. Hahaha holy shit.
Your 'facts' are all over the place.

Please cite your source that the children were executed by Koresh's followers.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #46
52. Again, Wow.
Here we Pro 2A folks want to try to use non-violence, and the Anti's want to napalm and sort the corpses later.

Wow.

You really haven't actually read what happened there, have you?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. Yes I did - and I didn't read the RW propaganda either
Let me guess, your sources never mentioned how the autopsies on the children showed they were all killed execution style. Not by the FBI, but by the Davidians themselves.

Oh but no, they loved children and were just innocent church goers!

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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. Sigh. There are days when I wish...
I had the tin foil concession for the wing-nuts at both ends of the political spectrum. It seems hats are in style these days... :tinfoilhat:
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. FIVE children were killed
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 04:22 PM by Treo
Likely by their parents. Quick bullet in the head V death by fire? What would you pick?

ETA
Autopsy records indicate that at least 20 Branch Davidians were shot, including 5 children. The Danforth Report concluded that the adults who died of gunshot wounds shot themselves after shooting the children.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. I think we know the answer to this...
"Personally, I cheered when they took out the Waco compound"

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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
72. Unfortunately you're probably right
or as they say it here 'Reich"
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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
75. So why didn't they arrest him while he was at the supermarket?
You know, where they obtain a warrant, then arrest him when he isn't in a house full of guns? Actually, this just looked to me like another case of Macho Man Syndrome, where tactical teams are used in situations where they're totally unnecessary. Same reason there was that stupid raid where they hit their own mayor's house, or why innocent Americans die every year in raids on the wrong house, or why police forces are being issued Armored Personnel Carriers.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Janet Reno was trying to make up for her small Penis NT
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #76
110. oh please
who are you? .... the male iverglass...??
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #110
114. Let's all say it together now....
S-a-r-c-a-s-m....

There, I knew you could! :hug:
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #114
120. whatever
and get your nasty paws off me.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #110
131. Iverglass is going to flip if she ever reads that
I was referring to the often repeated " Gun loonies own guns because they have small penises and they're trying to prove their masculinity " schtick that the grabbers tend to throw out around here. And yes, I was being sarcastic.
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. I feel like I am in the twilight zone. Isn't that the same schtick that
Iverglass is always throwing around in here.

let her flip, I say.
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #132
133. too late for edit. I get it now. Yes, Iverglass will flip as well she should.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #75
96. The rumors at that time was that the ATF wanted to pull a raid...
for publicity so it could get better funding from Congress.

Shortly before the Waco raid, the agencys public image had hit an especially low point. Back in October of 1992, some African American agents accused the agency of discrimination at a House of Representatives subcommittee meeting specifically claiming that their superiors assigned them to more dangerous jobs than their white counterparts and denied denied the same opportunities to job promotion as whites received. They filed suit. These allegations of racism were not the end. Female workers from the ATF had also made allegations of sexual harassment, and said they faced retaliatory punishment for voicing their complaints. The ATF announced that it would launch an investigation as a result, two months before the assault at Mount Carmel.<2> A couple of CBS 60 Minutes exposs had focused on the harassment charges, including one before the Waco raid and one a month after in which a reporter found, Almost all the agents we talked to said they believe the initial attack on that cult in Waco was a publicity stunt the main goal of which was to improve ATFs tarnished image.<3> This would explain the codename of the raid, Operation Showtime. <4>
http://www.anthonygregory.com/waco.html

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
85. So you cheered as those children burned up. You are a dirtbag.
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 08:48 PM by Fire_Medic_Dave
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #85
111. bingo.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
86. So you really don't support any of the Constitution.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #23
87. Lon Horiuchi should have been executed for 1st degree murder.
I'm glad Randy Weaver has millions of taxpayer dollars.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:30 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. FREEPERS!!!!!!!!
You're all just a bunch of eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevil Reich wingers pretending to be good progressives. How dare you not support Janet Reno's decision to assault a compound full of children W/ tanks? I bet you hate Obama TOO! {/Insane grabber rambling}
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #87
94. I'm so tacticool I even double tap my posts
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 10:35 PM by Treo
Double tap ( ten bucks says the grabbers don't get it)
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. People who don't know the difference between an assault weapon...
and an assault rifle would have no idea what double tap means.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #97
104. I think you mean
People that don't know the difference between an assault rifle and a semi automatic ,look-a-like, clone that fires one round per trigger pull just like every other semi automatic rifle on the planet. That Diane Feinstine has decided to demonize by mis-labeling it an "assault weapon" wouldn't know what a double tap was
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #87
95. He doesn't, his daughters do NT
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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #23
98. wow.
"And on Ruby Ridge, I blame Randy Weaver for killing his kids. He didn't have to keep them there."


You blame randy weaver for a fed stitching his son sam diagonally across the torso with a machine gun?

You blame randy weaver for lon whatshisname sniping an unarmed woman?

Cripes man...learn the truth about what happened at both incidents. Certain things are beyond politics, such as FLIR footage that discredits the "official story" at waco. Such as statements - by officials - that no incendiary devices were EVER fired at waco, and yet there they were, found in the rubble.



If you did really cheer then you bought the "official story" about both incidents, and in doing so remain completely ignorant to the discrepancies contained therin.


For that and no other reason I feel pity for you.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. He also holds Randy Weaver responsible for a Federal Marshall Shooting his 14 YO son in the back NT
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. Too much money being made off of this Constitutionally protected consumer item.
And there will be no such thing as absolute gun freedoms until toddlers are allowed to pack heat in nursery school.

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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Don't give the NRA any ideas!
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
27. That's like calling a ballot a "consumer item"
We have to realign the way we see ourselves as well as the world around us. We're not consumers, we're citizens. Part of the problem with America today is that there's not enough Americans who act like citizens, but we can do something to change that.

I'm not trying to go all Lykurgos on the public or anything, but I do believe our nation needs to take a very long look at its society, culture, lifestyle, etc. and see if we really like what we see. There's always room for improvement.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. +1
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #22
66. Do you know how big the gun industry is?
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 04:21 PM by PavePusher
Bet you can't guess to the nearest 10 billion... In fact, I bet you end up being off by an order of magnitude.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #66
115. more than 24 hours with no response...
I'll take that to mean you have no idea what you are talking about.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-26-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #66
140. I don't actually know, but I'm keen to find out
I think I read somewhere that the earnings of U.S. firearms and ammunition manufacturers combined were something in the order of $2.5bn three years ago or so. I don't think that was counting imports, though.

Just an interesting comparison, Americans spend over $6bn on cut flowers annually. Sales of flowers and plants for Mother's Day alone are $1.98bn.
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
29. Not a bright idea.
You want to ensure unrest, conflict and Obama's death? Try taking away everyone's guns.

I'm not scared of militias because there have always been militias. I am scared of frightened people banning banning everything that scares them, thinking it will have an effect.

I'm a RKBA Democrat and I can't say it enough, gun-ownership and rights are liberal and progressive ideas.
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
32. I used to support absolute gun restriction
until I moved out of an east coast city and into bear, cougar and rattlesnake country out west.

Common sense control is needed along with plugging up that gun show loophole. We need to do our best at keeping guns away from crazies, felons, and children.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #32
43. Please define the "gun show loophole"... n/t
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Travis_0004 Donating Member (417 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #43
60. Easy
Apparently a loophole is when the federal government doesn't regulate sales between citizens because its not allowed to (Interstate commerce clause), and states CHOOSE not to pass a law.

I guess gun show loophole sounds better than, lack of a law regulating interstate commerce between two citizens
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. Oh! So it would be the same as, oh, I dunno...
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 04:18 PM by PavePusher
Having freedom and rights? Gosh, what an uber-right-wing-nutter concept.... :crazy:
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Bonhomme Richard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
33. The moron can't even buy pants the right length. n/t
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
116. That's a pretty common fashion...
But hey, if you don't have anything substantial, go for the personal attack. Why the hell should we keep this strictly to facts? Oh, wait, that's right, we want to be better than their side... or maybe not....
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
35. "go 'Gun Grabber' and take away everyone's guns"
Who's door are you going to knock on first?
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. You really should read the thread before you post
This was addressed several times earlier with a "who's going to bell the cat" resolution

But hey, you just want to attack me so go head!
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
108. He never was a staunch supporter of gun rights.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
50. Sure, but only if
we can use neo-nazis/klansmen as a reason to ban free speech and freedom of association (people aren't mature enough for that yet, obviously).

And westboro baptist church to do away with freedom of religion (definitely not ready).

And so on.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
64. You cannot ban something just because it is misused by some.
You cannot ban something just because a few people use the things badly.

We don't ban cars despite people driving them recklessly and carelessly, causing far more injury and death each year than firearms do.

People are going to use firearms to do bad things. This is a logical consequence of free and open access to firearms. We tolerate the bad things because allowing free and open access to firearms allows the citizenry to have the ultimate recourse against tyranny and oppression.

The founders of this country knew that arms could be misused. Firearms had existed for some 400 years before the Constitution was written, and I'm sure they were used to do bad things for every one of those 400 years. Yet our founders knew that it was better to suffer the consequences of the bad actions of a few rather than render everyone defenseless. This concern is voiced by Benjamin Franklin when he said in 1775, "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

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votingupstart Donating Member (535 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #64
69. Correct - K&R n/t
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
123. +1
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
70. Very few people support "absolute gun freedoms"...
merely the same standard of scrutiny that is applied to the First Amendment and others, e.g. strict scrutiny.

But to your point, blanket confiscation of guns (or even confiscation of certain categories of guns) is the surest way to create the very situation you profess to fear. But it would never happen in this country, because if a party even began to seriously discuss it, they would be out on their asses in the next election.

Nearly 40% of U.S. households own guns, and the vast majority are responsible (hence the declining gun accident rate, the declining gun-murder rate, and the decline in police-officer shootings).

We will keep them, thanks. Though you are certainly free to get rid of yours if you so choose.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
74. You are overreacting...
Edited on Tue Sep-22-09 05:14 PM by spin
What do you think the idiot with with gun wants you to think?

Obviously he's looking for a fight. He was sure that when Obama took office he would try to ban or confiscate firearms and gun owners in America would rise up and overthrow the government with militia movements leading the way.

Well Obama hasn't went after firearms and doesn't look like he will anytime in the near future.

So how does this character start the gun confiscation he so desperately wants?



We don't need to attempt to pass draconian gun laws because a few idiots exercise their legal rights.

edited to correct spelling

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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:33 PM
Response to Original message
77. He's going to need help drawing that pistol out of the holster.
Fool is carrying it far too low. Probably thinks he looks like a hot shot gunslinger, but will have to twist his torso to reach that thing.

Total tool.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. it's a drop leg holster
The point is to get the pistol below body armor. notneed in this case and doesn't allow for very good retention
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. In my experience with drop-legs...
when properly adjusted, they put the grip exactly, with arms at sides, at hand level, are less akward (with a little practice) than drawing a full size 1911 from a hip holster and get in the way less when sitting (again, proper adjustment). As for retention, depends on the holster, not the location. My SERPA can be configured as a drop-leg rig, just as secure as on my hip.

I will point out that, should someone try a grab from one, they will very likely end up in a perfect position for you to come down on their back/neck/head/arm with your full body weight behind your strong-side elbow.... :evilgrin: Grabbers make funny crunching noises...
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Measure his shoulder to elbow, then elbow to grip.
He MIGHT be able to brush that grip with his fingers. But he'll have to bend at the waist to grab it out.

And what body armor? If he's wearing it in the shot this holster is a good 12 inches clear of it. His armor would have to extend well past his hip joint, and in that case it would interfere with his movement.

OTOH, thinking about it, I guess a case could be made for it placing the weapon in a handy location if you are drawing it from a crouched position. And I'm probably showing my anti-moran bias by assuming that isn't his intention with that rig.
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. Aargh, can't get the picture here at work.
I'll try from home 'cause I can't see it here.
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 08:41 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. I never said
Hes was wearing the holster properly or that he was wearing armor. I merely stated my understanding of the purpose of a drop holster
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. Ah, that makes good sense.
Thanks!
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Treo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. No Prob I think he was incredibly stupid to wear a firearmlike that NT
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-22-09 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Well, on getting home and being able to see the picture...
I wouldn't wear it that low. But... one mans comfortable undies are another mans torture device. Comfort is in the... feel of the wearer.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-24-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #77
136. HA! That's so true! Good observation
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:46 AM
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102. You, in particular, need to stay away from guns.
After reading this thread and your comments in the other thread, I would say that you have too much free-floating anger for you to be safe around guns. You sound like you are ready to snap at some unknown time. Please seek professional help. We don't want to read about you in the news sometime.
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Unrepentant Fenian Donating Member (707 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-23-09 09:49 PM
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112. Next week, he'll have a noose that says "Fed" on it.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-25-09 10:05 PM
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137. Crack is a powerful drug.
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