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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:29 AM
Original message
The M1 Carbine can be converted to an M2 Carbine by replacing some parts and adding others. Of
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:45 AM by jody
course that is illegal but some with military experience in the 40s and 50s may remember such modifications.

Anyone know of another semiautomatic that could be converted to select-fire by "only" replacing or adding parts?

My question pertains to assertions made by the anti-RKBA group who believe it's easy to convert an assault-weapon into an assault-rifle and therefore the AWB should be renewed.

ON EDIT: add "only" to limit conversion strictly to replacing parts and/or adding parts.
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Fabio Donating Member (929 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. With certain guns,
Edited on Mon May-04-09 10:34 AM by Fabio
it is possible to change from semi to full auto fire. On the AR platform, it requires manipulation of the hammer plus a new FA bolt. Changing a weapon to be capable of select fire is extremely difficult without a lower receiver than can accept three positions. Keep in mind, doing any of these things is HIGHLY illegal and strictly enforced by ATF. Furthermore, a person would need to practice full auto fire, and without proper paperwork, would have a hard time doing so without attracting attention.
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NightWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. you mean there's not a $5 kit that they sell you under the table at gun shows
that could be installed by your average gun owner in less than ten minutes?


I love when people who have no idea what they are talking about try to tell me about how easy it is. I have limited experience on small arms including "fluff and buffs" and trigger jobs on M1911 (variants of course, I'd never alter a Colt).
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Understand but the M1 to M2 conversion was simply by replacing parts and adding others. n/t
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. That's not quite the beast to fire as the standard M-1, but still a beast. nt
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. The "easiest" conversion I can think of is the FN-FAL but it does not meet your parameters.
It requires a milling machine to cut the receiver to allow for the installation of the new parts. I call it the easiest because it only requires one basic milling operation. A friend of mine claims that the AR-15 is about the same but I cannot speak to that.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Understand re milling but that goes beyond replacing or adding parts as with the M1 to M2 conversion
Thanks, :hi:
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
7. I've seen a firing pin jam forward..
and cause a runaway, but it's not like you had control over the gun- just loading it would have caused it to fire continuously.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Not to mention firing partially out of battery. (n/t)
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 10:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. I believe they would all pre-1986 (like the antique M1 carbines you're speaking of).
Guns manufactured after the enactment of the 1986 McClure-Volkmer Act are required to be difficult to convert.

I suppose you could design a new bolt carrier assembly, trigger group, etc. to provide full auto capability to any civilian semiauto (hunting rifle OR "assault weapon," no difference), but if you can manufacture that, you can manufacture a complete automatic weapon. And the manufacture and possession of such parts would be as illegal as the manufacture and possession of a bomb.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. "antique M1 carbines" -- antique, that really makes me feel my age!
:rofl: :hi:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
11. The M14 can be converted to automatic by adding a part
However, because of the ease of conversion it has never been sold to the general public. There are a very few transferrable ones.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. You mean this. . . .
shoestring?

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. The M14
was intended to be select-fire, or capable of full automatic fire from its inception. That the selector could be removed and replaced by a "shaft-lock" was to preclude undisciplined automatic fire. It was especially common to do so to M14's issued to service and service-support units. Cooks, clerks, ash and trash were not expected to have the fire discipline required to have full-auto when the rifle was in service 40 years ago.

Installation of the shaft lock did not eliminate any of the other parts needed to fire full auto and likely gave rise to the "war story" about making an M14 fire automatic with a matchstick. If you are old enough to have worn khakis with shorts and knee socks in formation, or recall Sgt. Presley at Mickey's in Grafenwoehr you already know the "trick".

TRW, a prime contractor for M14 production did bring out a semi-auto only version, similar to the present-day M1A except that the basic receiver was MILSPEC. Despite not having an FA parts and incapable of FA the ATF ruled that as the receiver was based on a machinegun that it was still a machinegun and withdrew its approval. That was over half a century ago!. There exist a very few of those guns which, like "G" series FAL's, are listed by serial number in the Curios and Relics list published by the ATF that are lawful for anyone to possess without an NFA stamp.

Real, that is, "US Property" marked M14's on NFA registry are 1968 "amnesty guns", as the US government never sold M14's as surplus to civilians like they did with the M1 Garand. Springfield Armory, which currently produces the M1A, did for a time produce M14's for the civilian market, but the Hughes Amendment in 1986 stopped that.

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423aaron Donating Member (29 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
12. The SKS
It can be made FA only by adding a piece of brass flat stock in the trigger group.

As mentioned illegal, felony etc............
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. Wouldn't that just lead to hammer follow?
My wife owns an SKS, and I've handled the trigger group quite a bit. I don't see how that would do anything but cause the hammer to ride the bolt down. To get full auto, you need a mechanism to hold the hammer back until the bolt locks, and it needs to release when the trigger is released.

The Chinese military made an SKS derivative that was full auto, but they redesigned the bolt and fire-control parts from the ground up, IIRC.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-06-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #19
30. Im sure 98-99% of the time you would get hammer follow...
such as an AR-15 with an M-16 fcg, but its that 1-2% of the time you might get lucky... (or unlucky, as Im sure that an out of battery explosion is also equally possible).
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Mnpaul Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
13. The AK 47 is pretty easy to modify
Just do a google search.

A friend of mine was able to convert his mini 14 to full auto fire with a piece of fishing line. It is not hard to do if you know what you are doing.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Most of the info on the 'net either refers to rare pre-1986's, or is bunk.
You cannot just drop in AK-47 fire control parts; even if they would fit (which they won't, because post '86 civilian AK's use civilian-only receivers), the post-'86 civilian bolt carrier won't trip them, AFAIK.

The fishing line trick isn't a full auto conversion, just a gimmick to allow the charging handle to pull the trigger when it goes forward, but even that is good for 10 years in Federal prison per the BATFE. It won't work on a gun without a reciprocating charging handle (like an AR-15), though.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Almost, the ATF is hard to pin down.
Consistency, clarity, and common sense have never been a hallmark of ATF rulings. Yes, back in 1996 the ATF did rule a boot-lace was indeed, a machinegun.

When the question was asked again in 2004, the ATF reiterated its position a boot-lace was still a machinegun.

"We already told you a bootlace is a machinegun!" Letter

Three years later in June of 2007, the ATF reconsidered and issued this letter.

"We changed our mind about shoestrings" Letter

Anyone who deals with the ATF and the Firearms Technology Branch in particular know that having an ATF ruling and Letter in hand is worthless as a defense if they change their minds.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
15. TM9-1276
TM9-1276 M1, M2 & M3 Carbines

c. CARBINE, CAL. .30, M2 (fig. 3). (1) This model is almost identical with the carbine, cal. .30, Ml , except for a number of parts which have been modified, redesigned, or added, to produce a carbine which can be fired either in semiautomatic or fullautomatic position, through the use of the selector. When fired in fullautomatic, the rate of fire is approximately 750 to 775 rounds per minute. The M2 carbine can be identified by the selector (fig. 4), which projects from the left side of the receiver opposite the operating slide handle.

(2) Description of changed parts and their relative functioning are as follows (fig. 5):

(a) Hammer. Same as the Ml hammer, except that it has a milled cut in the lower right side to furnish clearance for the disconnector when assembled on the hammer pin.

(b) Sear. Same as the Ml sear, except for a raised shoulder on the top of the front end, which forms a camming surface for the disconnector when operated.

(c) Trigger housing. Same as the Ml , except that the left side of the magazine post is furnished with a retention slot, and the front face with a dismounting notch for the selector spring. (The dismounting notch leads into the top of the slot.) The right side has a milled cut for clearance of the disconnector lever.

(d) Operating slide. Same as the Ml , except for a clearance cut extending along the right-hand side of the body, and a diagonal cut at the point where the shank of the handle joins the body. The latter cut forms a cam for camming down the forward end of the disconnector lever.

(e) Magazine catch. The redesigned Ml magazine catch for the M2 has an added projection on the left end, facing forward, to act as an additional support for the 30-round magazine. This magazine catch may also be used on Ml and M1A1 carbines.

(f) Stock. A clearance cut was made in the inner right wall for clearance for the projecting right side of the disconnector. A cut was also made in the inner left wall for clearance for the selector. The bridge was cut down to the central section for clearance for the disconnector lever.

(g) Disconnector group added parts. The disconnector pivots on the hammer pin when assembled. The rear end has a lateral projection, which bears upon the raised shoulder of the sear, when the disconnector is cam-operated by the disconnector lever for fullautomatic fire. The forward end has a projecting lug on the right side, which lies outside the trigger housing and engages and acts as a camming surface for the rear end of the disconnector lever. A spring and a plunger bearing on the receiver return the disconnector to the inoperative position, when the camming action of the lever is discontinued.

(h) Disconnector lever assembly added parts. The disconnector lever assembly is composed of a trigger housing selector pin, disconnector lever rivet, and disconnector lever. Do not disassemble it. The pin retains the trigger housing when assembled to the receiver. The disconnector lever, riveted to a pivot on the pin, is shifted vertically, by the turning of the pin. The pin is turned by the selector. A rounded projection on the rear end of the disconnector lever operates the disconnector. A projecting toe the front end of the disconnector lever contacts the camming surface on the operating slide. An offset in the rear section provides for alignment with the slot in the disconnector.

(i) Selector group added part. The selector is mounted to the left end of the crank pin by means of a slot in the lower forward face of the selector mating with straddle slots in the end of the pin. The selector holds the pin in position and acts as a lever for turning, throwing the disconnector lever into or out of engagement with the operating slide. A curved wire spring holds the selector in position on the pin, and in the fullautomatic or semiautomatic position when operated. The straight
front end of the spring seats into a recess in the lower rear end of the selector, and the circular rear end of the spring seats in a vertical slot in the front face of the magazine post on the left side. When assembled, the bow of the spring faces upward.


Now the person who understands what that means would also know that the Army assembled kits by which this conversion could be done. Anyone who was an Armorer up through the Viet Nam era probably had done the conversion. (Most anti-gunners were confused by the term TM and had their eyes glazed over by the third sentence.)

Given that the M2 conversion and the kit was designed and engineered to retrofit existing stocks of M1 carbines in the military it is one the easiest conversions to accomplish, if and it's a big if, you have the requisite parts.

Those conversion kits are as tightly controlled by the NFA as a functional firing machinegun, and have been since the 1950's when some were surplussed by the US Government to the civilian law enforcement market.

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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 01:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. Some early AR 15's (1960's) are easly convertable.
With the use of drop in parts..

Their where only a few thousand of those rifles made, and NOW, because they are easily converted, they are CLASSIFIED as "machine guns"
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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
20. Regarding the AR-15, it depends on how many parts you're replacing and adding...
Edited on Mon May-04-09 06:30 PM by dairydog91
An AR-15 could theoretically be converted by adding and replacing a large number of parts. You'd have to add a sear, which would be difficult because post-86 lower receivers are made to be too tight to accommodate a sear. You'd have to carefully machine out a section of the receiver, then bore a hole to insert a holding pin (Semi-auto guns don't require a sear, hence they don't have a hole for a sear retention pin). Not to mention, you'd need to make an auto sear, which consists of a precision-made, oddly shaped piece of metal and a fine spring. You'd also need a unique hammer (Which would probably need to be forged), a modified trigger, a modified selector, and a different disconnect (Which would also need to be hand-machined).



Edited for handy graphix
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Where did you get such detailed info, Kevin?
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Easy enough
Edited on Tue May-05-09 09:21 AM by one-eyed fat man
even the ATF will tell you..............

Unlike the M2 carbine conversion parts, possession of M16 unique parts is not against the law, unless or until you also possess an AR-15.

The ATF sent out an industry letter concerning the 5 M16 fire control parts nearly 15 years ago. As a result there are some pitfalls anyone who has an AR should know about and any parts they might come across. Simply put the ATF considers anyone who has possession of both an AR-type rifle and any of the M16 unique components liable to prosecution for unregistered machingun, even if such parts were never installed.

Even persons who own a legal M16, properly registered on a Form 4 need to be careful as to the spares they keep on hand.

ATF Letter

"........that an individual, who possesses a registered M-16 machinegun, certain AR-15 type automatic rifles and M-16 type fire control components may have a combination of parts from which an additional and unregistered machinegun can be assembled."



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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Well, if you're really curious.
Edited on Tue May-05-09 09:45 AM by dairydog91
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Thanks for the detailed AR info
I am curious if you were curious why I addressed you as Kevin?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. All right, I'll bite.
Edited on Tue May-05-09 11:53 AM by dairydog91
Why did you call me Kevin? Anything to do with the crazy ad exec who took a machinegun to a Coke machine?
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No, from this:
The "name" of your image directory on photobucket:

http:/ / img. photobucket. com/ albums /v181/ KEVD18/ ar15m16.gif

Is this a bad deduction?

Signed: Inspector Clouseau
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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. Unfortunately, I just borrowed his pictures...
I guess I could grab the photo and stick it in my own personal photobucket account, I'll do so if I'm violating some hotlinking policy I'm not aware of.

P.S. - My photobucket account is also under "Dairydog" :P
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-06-09 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. No, you're fine
Photobucket is made to hotlink to.

I generally move stuff into my Photobucket account either to a) not bother a media site's bandwith (guilt avoidance), b) have them sorted by type so I can find it again, and/or c) so I'll always have it for myself.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-05-09 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
28. Or you can just stick your thumb through the trigger guard...
...and hook it on your jean pocket.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2kZY4Gu9wE
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-06-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
31. Well, any pre-1981 open bolt semi would probably be easy enough.
as we all know, open bolt semis are banned as being 'readily converted' machine guns, but this was in 1981 and there is a grandfather exception.

Turns out they made quite a few open bolt semi 22's back in the day.
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Chota Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-06-09 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
32. An M1 Carbine can't be converted into a M2 Carbine without
Significant machining to the receiver. I know because I legally have both. An AR-15 lower receiver manufactured since 1994 also can not be modified for full-auto without extensive machining. A true M14 is just a parts swap but an M1A is impossible to convert.
For SKS when the firing pin sticks and then runs away as previously described that's called a slam-fire and the hammer doesn't have to fall for this to occur. I have a Russian target pistol that will slam fire with Federal .22 ammo because the rim is about .002 too thick. The extractor sets it off when trying to slip over the rim. Any semi-auto with a floating firing pin is capable of slam fire buts that also why they're very very seldom used.
Imported AK variants such as MAK-90s can't be converted with parts swaps because while the parts fit they're in the wrong place for them to work.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-07-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Thanks - you saved me a long ana angry post. Most of these
"conversion" stories are absolute bullshit, more anti gun fucking lies by anti-gun shit heads.
You guys make me sick - fuck all of you.

mark
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-07-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. old mark, please read my #35.
:hi:
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-07-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Read my post
Edited on Thu May-07-09 02:06 PM by one-eyed fat man
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I even linked you to the TM and the pictures. I did a bunch of these in the Army 40 years ago.

The receiver is the same. The trigger housing is machined differently but is usable on both versions. Just like round bolts and flat bolts can be used with either. In fact a good number of the M1 carbines that have come out of the CMP lately have the M2 trigger housing.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-07-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. "40 years ago"! Were we ever that young? n/t
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-07-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Yes, indeed
Back when base pay was 78 bucks a month and 55 bucks jump pay was a big deal. and DCM would sell you WW2 cal .30 M2 AP ammo for 8 dollars a thousand, delivered, Railway Express. That was the poor man's long range match ammo.

Yes, we sure have lost a lot of freedom since those days!

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-07-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Sorry, a M1 carbine can be converted to M2 carbine by part replacement/addition as many with
military experience from the 40s, 50s, and early 60s know as do I.
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