i could

[barbtries]

I Could

I could be driving down the road and someone in another car pulls out a gun and starts taking potshots for fun and kills me.

I could take a wrong turn into the wrong neighborhood and be attacked by a gang who shoot my son to death.

I could be lying in my bed and a stranger breaks in the house ties me up and rapes me both before and after he kills me.

I could be hit by a truck.

I could have a stroke or a heart attack or cancer or all three.

I could get mad enough to think I could kill somebody.

I could never be the owner of a gun that was stolen during a burglary and then used to kill another person.

I could never be the person whose gun was found by children who killed each other accidentally.

I could never be the mother of a child who was depressed enough to consider suicide and shot himself before there was a chance for him to see that tomorrow is another day.

I could never be the woman whose loaded gun was found by the intruder before she even knew he was in the house, whose husband was killed with his own gun by that intruder, and who pretended to be dead to avoid being shot a second time.

I could never, no matter how mad I was, reach for a gun and kill somebody I loved in a fit of anger.

The reason I could never do such things is because there is no gun to reach for, and there never will be. Senseless murders and all sorts of tragedies happen, but the tragedies that occur in relation to firearms will never occur in relation to a firearm owned or kept by me.

http://www.geocities.com/bbalesgeo/icould.html

i wrote this about ten years ago. lately there's a storm of murders, mass murders, murder/suicides, by gun, happening in this country. coming from los angeles and the mother of a homicide victim (not killed by a gun), i am only too familiar with the cost of such untimely and violent deaths. i just wanted to add my voice.

those of us in the united states live in a violent land. does it have to be that way forever?

peace.

[MineralMan]

1. Duck You Head! Incoming!

[Joe Steel]

2. A Single-minded Focus

those of us in the united states live in a violent land. does it have to be that way forever?

Our culture can change but it won't if we don't make it change. That will take a single-minded focus on the world we want. We can't let ourselves be diverted by peripheral issues. America is ruled by the gun cult because they don't think of anything but guns. We have to be as devoted to ridding the world of guns as they are of flooding it with them.

[kctim]

3. Incoming? Nah.

You 'could' be a victim. Your choice.
I 'could never' be a victim. My choice.
Please respect my choice as much as I respect yours.

[walkaway]

5. Until someone steals your gun and uses it on you. N/T

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. Or your kid finds your gun and shoots himself in the face. nt

[rl6214]

30. And that would be a tragedy

But the irresponsible act of leaving a weapon where a child can find it does not make every gun own irresponsible.

[RaleighNCDUer]

36. Most kids are smart. There is no place in a house where a child

CANNOT find a gun, if the child really wants to find it, except inside a gun safe. And then, all he has to find is a key or combination. Locked dresser drawers or closets are no obstacle.

The fact is, the ONLY safe gun is one that isn't there.

[rl6214]

45. That's a foolish statement if firearms are properly stored

There is NO WAY your children could get to any of my guns. Only a locksmith could. That is responsible gun ownership. Dosen't matter how smart your kids are.

[RaleighNCDUer]

52. Clue - if YOU can get at your gun, so can your kid.

There is no such thing as 'safe'; only 'safer'.

Of course, having your weapon properly stored is the responsible way to keep a weapon - but a child who lives in the house with you CAN get access with enough time and determination. Combination locks can be be worked out - all it takes is repetitively trying each possible combination. Password locks can be figured out, if the person knows who input the password. Key locks require physical keys, which can be found.

MY kids may not be able to get at your guns. But YOUR kids could. They may be safe from burglars, but not from residents.

[jmg257]

54. Wow - not sure how my sisters and I survived growing up in house with guns.

And all those millions and millions of other kids did/do. Those not one of the thousands upon thousands killed in car accidents, drowned in pools and pails, poisoned, suffocated, killed in a fall, etc., I mean.

Sure in my case it had something to do with being educated about the damage they can do if not properly handled.

Damn sure my kid knows the same things now, and more. And still the guns are in a safe, just in case he forgets.

[RaleighNCDUer]

66. What's that got to do with the price of tomatoes?

The poster's assertion was not that his kids were trained in proper handling of firearms - it was that his kids (actually, he said MY kids) could never get to his guns.

I assert they can.

And though you may not be aware of it, even kids who are trained and well cautioned blow each other and themselves away. Just as adults do. Accidents happen.

And my simple statement is, where there are no guns there are no shootings, accidental or otherwise.

[jmg257]

75. I agree. And where there is no water, no one drowns, & no cars, no car accidents.

Impossible to prevent accidents, so you do all you can, re:the choices you make, by being as responsible as possible to minimize the risk.

You don't leave a toddler unsupervised in a swimming pool, you don't drive 120mph with your eyes closed, and you don't leave your guns accessible to kids - your own or anyone else's. Not that hard really.


My simple point was that millions & millions of people/kids are around guns every day and nothing bad happens. Also, that when tragically things do go wrong, they do so at much lower numbers then accidents involving many other objects.

[RaleighNCDUer]

79. I entirely agree.

My problem is only with those who insist it can NEVER happen - it always seems to be those persons who it happens to.

[jmg257]

81. Cheers, then! I trust my kid, but...he is still just a kid. (and so are his friends).

[dairydog91]

59. Paranoid?

Figuring out combo locks by random guessing is rather time consuming. I know the safe that my father used had a dial that numbered up to 80: Three numbers required, which comes out to 512,000 possible combinations (Plus it took a key, which I did not know the location of). Keypad locks can be even more fun; An 8 digit combo, numbers and letters, has almost 3 trillion possible combos. Just numbers offers 100 million combinations.

[RaleighNCDUer]

70. You don't figure combo locks by random guessing - you go through

number combinations methodically. When I was a kid I did it several times on Yale padlocks. Sure, it took time but I'm just OCD enough to spend that time. Keypad locks would be more of a challenge - you'd have to resort to subtrefuge such as dusting the keypad with UV reactive powder (chemistry sets are fun) to figure out which keys were used, then start in on combinations of those particular keys. Of course, nobody who didn't see 'National Treasure' could ever come up with that idea.

Or, you could search for the password/combo - unless the combination is used on a near daily basis it WILL be written down somewhere - particularly if it is truly a random combo. Or it might not be written down, but be some number combo that is memorable - such as a birthday, discharge date from the military, HS graduation date, etc. The most commonly used 6 digit combo is the user's birthday, reversed - 06-22-53 becomes the code 352260.

Keys are simple. They'd have to be convenient to the lock - therefore not in a bank vault downtown - or convenient to the person. On a keychain, in a wallet, on top of the wall clock. Keys are EASY.

It doesn't take a genius.

[rl6214]

73. WOW

You're really stretching here aren't you.

[RaleighNCDUer]

78. not a bit. A gun safe will keep a burglar away from your guns -

until you take the gun out to confront him - but it is nothing more than a challenge to a kid with imagination.

BTW, the Yale padlocks took me from app. a week to three weeks to crack, working on them in my available time. Obviously not a problem with a grab and go - but for someone who wants to spend the time at it and put up with the boring repetition and who has the opportunity to work at it, it can be done.

[dairydog91]

94. Exactly how many kids are we talking about here?

I certainly didn't have the patience to methodically grind through a half million possible combos when I was a kid. I still wouldn't be patient enough to do it. Unless I'm mistaken, Yale padlocks would only have a few thousand possible combos, not hundreds of thousands.

UV Reactive powder?!? Christ, what is this, mini-James Bond? At this rate, we should shut down all military armories, since Junior could hack the security system, rappel through the ceiling, and grab an M-16.

[RaleighNCDUer]

99. Don't they sell chemistry sets anymore?

When I was a kid I distinctly remember that exact experiment - take (I don't remember which) chemical, mix it with (again I don't remember - it was a LOMG time ago) water or alcohol and use a cotton swab or Q-tip to paint the mixture onto the chosen surface, and it dries clear and can only be seen with a black light. Hardly James Bond. I think I did it with my sister's chemistry set in 4th grade.

As for the keypad, it doesn't take a half-million possibilities, with a little judicious snooping. Even without actually seeing the combo as it is being opened, you would only have to be in the room once while it is being opened to know if it is a 4-digit, or 5-digit, or 6-digit code - knowing exactly how many digits it is reduces the possible combinations by several orders of magnitude.

Look, I'm not saying it is likely - only that it is NOT impossible.

[rl6214]

68. Combination locks can be worked out

Seriously, do you hear what you are saying? I guess masterlock just got put out of business because all of their locks are worthless. And Passwords? Who said anything about passwords? Those are on your computer, probably your dogs name or your birthday, not on a gun safe.

My kids are smart, I've got a son in his third year at the Naval Academy, an aerospace engineering major. Takes a few brains to pull that off, more than I have and he couldn't figure it out.

[Hugabear]

85. Masterlocks can be picked

They're not that hard to do, anybody with access to the internet can easily figure out how to crack a Masterlock combination lock - or a key lock, for that matter.

[rl6214]

95. Damn

You should just be a super spy, you are that good.

[dairydog91]

96. But Masterlocks...

Are considerably cheesier than the locks on any of the gun safes I've seen.

[paulsby]

84. he's far more likely to drown in the frigging bathtub nt

[kctim]

11. I don't own a gun.

[Hangingon]

18. In today's world someone may steal my gun and use it on me.

It will be empty and he will have to use it to beat me to death.

[rl6214]

28. Oh jeez, that same old tired reply

come on, find something original.

[Hugabear]

87. Yeah, because something like that could NEVER happen

C'mon, challenge me to find proof that this has ever happened. Kids never find their parents guns and accidentally shoot someone with them. :sarcasm:

[Joe Steel]

6. Would you expect...

Please respect my choice as much as I respect yours.

If we all were in a small room, would you expect us to respect your choice to play with a hand grenade?

[kctim]

13. Nope

I would respect the law, and your fear, and not bring one into the room.
I would, however, expect you to respect my choice if in my own home.

[Joe Steel]

19. Guns can be used to kill at great distance.

I would respect the law, and your fear, and not bring one into the room.
I would, however, expect you to respect my choice if in my own home.

Guns can be used to kill at great distance. A gun in your home can be used to kill a neighbor hundreds of meters away. Should we respect your choice to keep one if we know it will be a danger?

[rl6214]

31. A danger to what or whom?

I have been a gun owner for 30 years and my guns have never been a danger to anyone of anything. I ride a bike, every time I go out on my bike, if you own a car you are a HUGE danger to me and my fellow riders. Get rid of your car. You have to respect my right to ride my bike safely.

[Joe Steel]

47. You put yourself into danger

I ride a bike, every time I go out on my bike, if you own a car you are a HUGE danger to me and my fellow riders. Get rid of your car. You have to respect my right to ride my bike safely.

You put yourself into danger when you chose to ride in traffic. Your neighbor didn't.
You can see the threat. Your neighbor can't.

[kctim]

37. But you do not know it will be a danger

You only think it is a danger because of your fear. That doesn't mean it can't happen, anything can happen. Hell, my neighbor could run hundreds of meters and plant a bomb he made from stuff under his sink, in my house if he wanted to. But I'm not going fear that happening every day.

One's fears are not a valid reason for taking away anothers rights. Gay folks and us against illegal wiretapping can tell you that.

[Joe Steel]

49. It's not an unreasonable fear.

You only think it is a danger because of your fear. That doesn't mean it can't happen, anything can happen. Hell, my neighbor could run hundreds of meters and plant a bomb he made from stuff under his sink, in my house if he wanted to. But I'm not going fear that happening every day.

It's not an unreasonable fear. It's a very real possibility. Guns are designed to be effective at long distances and they're regularly used by angry and confused persons. Being a victim of such circumstances is not impossible or even very unlikely.

[rl6214]

51. What really are your odds?

A 1997 study showed there were 65 million handguns, 70 million rifles and 49 million shotguns in the US. What are the percentage of those that are actually used to commit a crime or be involved in a negligent shooting? I would say the odds of being a victim are very unlikely.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. What maybe one person out of 250 million is killed in that manner, it is unreasonable..

[rrneck]

72. What you are asking is for others

to make the world safer for you without offering some way to make it safer for them. People are not likely to relinquish control of their personal safety without a high assurance that those removing it can take up the slack. If you want to restrict someone's civil rights, you have to offer them some civil compensation for their loss.

[57_TomCat]

86. All things are dangerous.

Most people when discussing guns and safety use a risk management method to ascertain the risk vs. the perceived risk. Guns can wreak havoc from a distance BUT as a general rule the risk of injury or death from such activity is minuscule. Insurance companies have some interesting actuarial tables that indicate that even with the excess of 200 million firearms in private hands, the fear of random gun injury is simply not a reasonable expectation for the population at large.

I might mention also most of the accidental shootings of citizens that were incidental to another event were by cops that either missed their target or the bullet went through the target or criminals that missed their target. As such, fears of weapons in the hands of citizens are even more unlikely. The cops and robbers are where most of the risk is from.

I know that my personal practices with my guns will greatly alleviate the risks to the citizenry but my access to such guns will provide a superior option to prevent harm and injury to the citizenry or my family under other circumstances. This is as a cop OR as a citizen.

[gorfle]

102. How likely is this danger?

Guns can be used to kill at great distance. A gun in your home can be used to kill a neighbor hundreds of meters away. Should we respect your choice to keep one if we know it will be a danger?
Is this a reasonable fear? How often are neighbors hundreds of meters away accidentally killed by firearms? I'd wager not.

[gorfle]

101. It depends on who owns the room.

If we all were in a small room, would you expect us to respect your choice to play with a hand grenade?

It depends on who owns the room.

If we were in your room, I would respect your wishes. If we were in my room, I'd expect you to respect mine, or leave.

[barbtries]

7. that doesn't make sense

are you implying or saying that i chose for my daughter to be killed, or that she chose to be killed? or that the recent victims all chose to be killed? some of them were policemen with loaded guns of their own and nonetheless they are victims.

[kctim]

14. No

I am saying that you choose to take that chance and that your choice should be respected. Just as the gun owner makes a choice and their choice should be respected.
I'm not even a gun owner and I can see their points.

[Joe Steel]

22. No one has an obligation to respect...

Just as the gun owner makes a choice and their choice should be respected.

No one has an obligation to respect a choice creating a deadly threat to his welfare.

[rl6214]

27. You seem awefully set in your mind

That you are going to take someone's constitutional right. Which constitutional right are you going to give up? Right now, which one?

[rl6214]

33. What threat are my firearms making on YOUR safety?

[Hugabear]

38. Are you kidding me?

How about the possibility that someone could break into your house, steal your gun, and then use that gun to shoot someone else? This sort of thing happens on a fairly regular basis all over the country. Here in Orlando, our chief of police just had her service gun stolen.

Would you at least admit that it's a possibility?

[rl6214]

46. No I will NOT admit that is a possibility

See my post a little further down. Every one of my guns is securely locked in a safe. Every one. Only me with the combination could get to them.

As far as the cop that had her gun stolen, she is a fool and not a responsible gun owner.

[Hugabear]

50. Then you must have the most secure locker ever known to man

I'm glad that you have your guns locked up, and that only you know the combination. Because it's not as if a criminal has EVER been able to break into a safe.

:sarcasm::sarcasm:

[rl6214]

53. Know what you are talking about before you start

It's not a locker, It's a safe. Three inch thick walls.

Similar to these.

http://www.patriotsafe.com/main.php?gclid=CKv2yKTv4ZkCFRMUagodt3-wVQ

How many safe-crackers are out there breaking into gun safes in homes? CAn your average criminal crack a safe?

[Hugabear]

57. You said it could never happen. You are WRONG.

And I don't care what kind of safe you have. I never said that an "average" criminal could crack it. But if you think for a minute that there is absolutely no way that a determined criminal could not get inside your safe, then you are dead wrong.

[dairydog91]

62. Of course you can get into a safe...

But a safe doesn't have to be impenetrable, it just has to be uninviting. Joe Burglar is looking for stuff that he can grab quickly, and a heavy safe that is bolted to a concrete floor takes a lot of time, equipment, and noise to crack.

[rrneck]

74. I appreciate your concerns

but you are asking someone to relinquish a measure of their civil rights to keep you safe from a threat "out there somewhere". In what universe do you think that will fly?

[barbtries]

29. i tried very hard

to take disrespect out of the argument perhaps i failed, or perhaps people are too touchy, or perhaps i read your post wrong. i can "see" their points as well. i find my reasoning way more persuasive, but that's me.

anyone who has children in the home should not keep a gun in a place where they can get to it. this to me is a no-brainer yet there are people who disagree and strenuously, i fail to see how. but say they agree that children should not be able to get their hands on a loaded gun: how then can it serve as protection? what burglar is going to sit down and wait while you unlock and load your gun so you can defend your family or yourself?

my sister and brother-in-law have guns and insist that they feel safer. years ago i was staying in their house and in the middle of the night there was a loud scary crashing sound that seemed to come from the dining room. our bedrooms were on opposite sides of the house with the kitchen, dining room, living room and family room in between. it was about 3 in the morning. i tiptoed fearfully out to the dining room holding a hairbrush (the only weapon i could find!) and met my brother-in-law there, unpacking his pistol (or whatever kind of gun he has). and there we were.

i just told that story for the humor of it. for the record wherever the horrific sound had come from, it was not from inside my sister's
house. no shots were fired, and we're all still alive.

[rl6214]

35. Its not neccesarily disrespect of a person but a right.

"anyone who has children in the home should not keep a gun in a place where they can get to it. this to me is a no-brainer yet there are people who disagree and strenuously,"

Agreed whole heartedly and I don't think any responsible gun owner would disagree with you. I have yet to see and example where someone would "disagree...strenuously" that anyone should not keep a gun in a place where children can get to it

"how then can it serve as protection? what burglar is going to sit down and wait while you unlock and load your gun so you can defend your family or yourself?"

I have three gun safes in my house. One is a large, combbination safe in a closet in my bedroom. It is always locked and takes me about a minute to open. The second is a smaller safe in my garage, takes less than a minute to open. The third is a small handgun safe under my bed which takes just seconds to punch in the code to retrieve my handguns that are stored in it.

With that said, I have an ADT alarm system in the house which would give me plenty of time to retrieve any of my guns. I also have three very large German Shepards which will again alert me to any problems so I can retrieve any of my guns.

"my sister and brother-in-law have guns and insist that they feel safer. years ago i was staying in their house and in the middle of the night there was a loud scary crashing sound that seemed to come from the dining room. our bedrooms were on opposite sides of the house with the kitchen, dining room, living room and family room in between. it was about 3 in the morning. i tiptoed fearfully out to the dining room holding a hairbrush (the only weapon i could find!) and met my brother-in-law there, unpacking his pistol (or whatever kind of gun he has). and there we were.

i just told that story for the humor of it. for the record wherever the horrific sound had come from, it was not from inside my sister's
house. no shots were fired, and we're all still alive."

So your BILs gun caused you no harm?

[MineralMan]

10. You seem to be addressing me.

I'm armed in my home. Others are not. There it is.

[Democracyinkind]

26. I know alot of victims that own guns. Thinking about that, the only gun owners I know are victims.

[Democracyinkind]

4. Be careful about being logical with this subject :-)

I would have liked you 10 years ago.

[barbtries]

15. you can like me still

the intervening years and close familiarity with many people directly affected by the issue have not changed my mind.

[Democracyinkind]

16. good to know. :-) Have a nice day. Thanks for the great thread.

[barbtries]

32. thank you

just my two cents of course.

[Tim01]

9. You and your family prefer to be a potential victim.

That's your choice.

[Hugabear]

12. Being armed with a gun does not necessarily make you safer - it can put you in even more danger

If you don't have a gun, then there's no chance of a burglar breaking into your house and using your gun against you.

If someone breaks into your house with a gun, what are you going to do - be a macho man and pull your gun as well? Better hope that the burglar doesn't shoot you first.

Most break-ins do not involve violence; most burglars simply want to grab what they can and make a quick escape. By introducing a gun into the equation, you're drastically increasing your odds - and the odds of your family - of being injured or killed.

[jmg257]

24. You bet your life on the odds you like, while I choose to tilt them in my favor.

My gun drastically increases the odds that any burglar OR robber stupid enough to break in is going out in a body bag. Period.

I like my odds better, because I prefer trusting my self more then counting on the 'good nature'(??) of criminals.

[rl6214]

39. "Being armed with a gun does not necessarily make you safer - it can put you in even more danger

"If you don't have a gun, then there's no chance of a burglar breaking into your house and using your gun against you.

If someone breaks into your house with a gun, what are you going to do - be a macho man and pull your gun as well? Better hope that the burglar doesn't shoot you first."

This is a tired old talking point. Can you provide any examples of this ever happening?

[barbtries]

41. having spent a great deal of time

in grief counseling with other loved ones of homicide victims, i can tell you one story. two people died: the son of the woman who had come to counseling, and the thief who tried to steal his car. it happened.

[rl6214]

48. The quote cited talked about turning a gun on it's owner

Can you provide links to any stories about a gun being turned on it's owner?

[Hugabear]

55. Are you really this obtuse? You want examples? Fine, here are some for you.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/feb/12/bn12shooting154225-burglar-woman-shot/

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/103008dnmetwatauga.15d488fa9.html

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11b_1210344827

http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories/2009/02/09/man-shot-with-own-gun-while-trying-to-stop-assault

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/05/nyregion/05shooting.html

[barbtries]

65. the first thought that comes to mind

is the Onion Field. i'm at work right now so that's as far as i can take it.

and attending a talk by Amy Goodman tonight...

[barbtries]

97. this happened in the neighborhood

where i grew up
I could never be the woman whose loaded gun was found by the intruder before she even knew he was in the house, whose husband was killed with his own gun by that intruder, and who pretended to be dead to avoid being shot a second time.

no link: it was pre-internet.

[Hugabear]

43. You have seriously got to be kidding.

You really have a hard time believing that there has ever been a situation where a homeowner pulling a gun during a burglary didn't wind up making things worse?

Burglar breaks into a house, armed with a gun. His plan is to simply grab what he can and leave. Homeowner confronts the burglar, points a gun at him. Homeowner hesitates. Burglar shoots the homeowner - he had no intention of shooting anybody, but did so out of his own self-preservation. Is this scenario really that difficult for you to imagine? Do you really find it so unfathomable, so unbelievable, that you would require proof that it has happened before?

Incredible.

[rl6214]

56. Nice story

Obviously you can't cite where this has happened or you would have already.

[Hugabear]

58. Wow, your grasp of logic is simply amazing.

Challenge someone to come up with an example on the spot, and if they don't respond with examples within your arbitrary timeframe, then it simply never happened.

BTW, I did list several examples above. Cases where law-abiding citizens were shot with THEIR OWN GUNS.

[rl6214]

60. You listed stories

"Burglar breaks into a house, armed with a gun. His plan is to simply grab what he can and leave. Homeowner confronts the burglar, points a gun at him. Homeowner hesitates. Burglar shoots the homeowner - he had no intention of shooting anybody, but did so out of his own self-preservation. Is this scenario really that difficult for you to imagine? Do you really find it so unfathomable, so unbelievable, that you would require proof that it has happened before?"


I set no arbitrary timeframes.

I've got all day to wait.

[Hugabear]

61. Look at post #55 - there are several examples there for you

I don't know why you have such a hard time believing that someone could wind up being shot with their own gun, or that introducing a gun escalates the danger of being shot.

[rl6214]

63. OK, I'll give you that

You found some. I think I could probably find 10 or 20 times that many stories about homeowner that stopped crimes using their guns or homeowners that became victims because they were unarmed. I would rather take those odds.

[Furyataurus]

69. You might want to look at this

and tell me what you think.

http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

[Furyataurus]

71. And its obvious that you fail to see

how RARE it is for a homeowner to be shot with their own firearm.

[hooptie]

88. The problem is...

<b>Burglar breaks into a house, armed with a gun. His plan is to simply grab what he can and leave.</b>

The problem with this line of thinking is, I have NO IDEA what his plan is. It is possible that he simply wants to take my TV/DVD player and leave. It is also possible that he just wants to take my TV/DVD player, but also doesn't want to leave any witnesses. It is also possible that he wants to rape and kill my family and not take anything. I have no idea and I have no way of finding out his true intentions without letting them play out.

Even if he breaks in and says "I don't want to hurt anyone, I just want your TV!" Can I believe him? Is it unreasonable to presume that someone who would commit armed robbery would lie about it? He will break into an inhabited building, use a weapon to intimidate the occupants, but won't tell a lie? Sorry, I can't buy that. You are welcome to think what you will about a stranger threatening you and your family, but I have to assume he means harm to my family, and I will react accordingly.

[DrCory]

90. Yet Another Mentalist...

Who knows the thoughts and intent of every armed intruder:

"Burglar breaks into a house, armed with a gun. His plan is to simply grab what he can and leave."

And you can guarantee this in every case present and future, forever?

[pipoman]

93. I have to wonder, and the obvious question is

why the fuck does the burglar have a gun while he is breaking into my house if he is simply on a mission to get himself a ham sandwich...he is there to hurt someone or he wouldn't have a gun.

Surely you don't find it that unfathomable that a burglar, who has never been in my house before, is shot dead before he knows he has been discovered because I can traverse my house walking backward with my eyes closed without making a sound. Hope it never happens, but if it does I won't be reaching for a hair brush or golf club.

[Tim01]

64. Want to be unable to defend yourself and your family, don't like options?

Go ahead, disarm yourself. What happens if the burglar has a gun? Maybe I kill him, but not you. You and your family are at the mercy of the burglar(rapist/murderer). In this particular stupid "what if" game, he ties you up and makes you watch as he rapes your wife,then he kills everybody. It simply couldn't be any worse if you had a gun.

Don't want him to take your gun away and shoot you? Don't give it to him, get some basic gun training.

But don't tell me that I have to disarm myself and fail to protect my family because you are afraid of guns.

Maybe this, maybe that. One thing for sure, you won't have the option of a gun.

[DrCory]

91. Speaking For Myself...

"If someone breaks into your house with a gun, what are you going to do - be a macho man and pull your gun as well?"

That is precisely what I did. Guess what? I wasn't harmed, and neither was the intruder, as he had the sense to flee.

[Democracyinkind]

17. That's like saying you and your gun are potential killers.

It's true, but it doesn't really say anything.

[Joe Steel]

20. Sure it does.

That's like saying you and your gun are potential killers.

It's true, but it doesn't really say anything.

Sure it does. It identifies both the existence and source of a threat. Rational persons act to manage threats to their communities.

[Democracyinkind]

25. I tend to see it as a potential threat.

I am currently living in a country where 40% of the male populace are required to have a military grade assault rifle and 50 live rounds in their closet.
And they are very seldom used to kill anyone.
There is a difference between a threat and a potential threat. It's the guns don't kill argument, just a bit more sophisticated.

Look, in a rational world I would agree with you. It's not rational.
But in America this subject is hyped to an almost religious debate because people insist on interpreting the constitution in a very stupid way. That's why I'm always very careful about what I say in these debates, can't stand to have a demacon flame war every 2 hours.



I agree. I'd rather have you as my neighbour than the gun-totters.
I would even go further and state that owning a military grade weapon is against the spirit of any social contract - for me that would include guns.
But I've given up on this issue at least in the United States.

[rl6214]

44. Dosen't this just prove you to be wrong?

"I am currently living in a country where 40% of the male populace are required to have a military grade assault rifle and 50 live rounds in their closet.
And they are very seldom used to kill anyone."

It's not the guns fault. It's the social system in the US. It's the legal system, it's the mental health system, it's the prison system, it's the health system itself, it's the financial state of affairs, it's the culture that has grown in the US.

Thirty five years ago when I was in grade school, middle school and high school, kids/people were respectfull, not any more.

[rl6214]

40. A person is a killer

The gun is just the object used to carry out the event.

[jmg257]

21. You forgot...'I could NEVER defend myself or my kids with a firearm.'

Your choice. And I respect that - people have to know their own mind, level of responsibility, & capabilities.

I will make my own choice too.

[slackmaster]

23. I respect your personal choices

I insist that you respect mine.

[aikoaiko]

34. That's fine for you, but that's not my choice.

[Xela]

42. I can respect that...

...and I expect you should do the same to me.

My family chose to be armed and our right to do so should be respected.

Kind regards,

Xela (Armed liberal, and a pacifist to boot).

[RaleighNCDUer]

76. Armed pacifist is an oxymoron. nt

[57_TomCat]

82. Excuse me...

Armed: Furnished with something that provides security, strength, or efficacy.

Pacifist: Strongly and actively opposed to conflict and especially war.

Oxymoron: Something (as a concept) that is made up of contradictory or incongruous elements.

Seems to me that a armed pacifist is quite a good thing to be even if it might be construed by some as contradictory or incongruous. :)

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. Problems with a definition:

Armed: possessing of a weapon.

Weapon: an instrument or device of any kind used to injure or kill

Pacifism: opposition to the use of force under any circumstances; spec. refusal for reasons of conscience to participate in war or military action

No person who has a weapon and is prepared to use it can be called a pacifist. Might be a reluctant user who hopes to god to never have to use the weapon - but not a pacifist.

EDIT:

Pacifist: the OP.

[Xela]

89. Nailed it.

Well put TomCat.

Thanks for the observation.

Xela

[yay]

67. I could kick you in the stomach and catch you unaware..

Swear to god you accidentally fell tha... oh wait... I though you were going to sing a Steven lynch song.... mah bad

[57_TomCat]

77. A couple of those "never's" should be reevaluated.

...snip...I could never be the mother of a child who was depressed enough to consider suicide and shot himself before there was a chance for him to see that tomorrow is another day. ...snip...

As a cop I have investigated suicides where the young adults/children did commit suicide from weapons purchased illegally on the street or provided by accomplice children with access to arms from their home or the street. Maybe your lack of gun possession would prevent "your" gun being misused that way but it does not eliminate the threat as you wrote it.


I could never, no matter how mad I was, reach for a gun and kill somebody I loved in a fit of anger. ...snip...


This one is also a situation where people without gun ownership did in fact kill their significant others with a gun. As a cop I am taught that ANY disturbance I am called to will have at least one gun present. Mine. In police training literature there are examples where the officers gun was grabbed and used to kill either the officer, the significant other or both. One case was where the cop was wrestling with an abusive husband to take him to jail and the wife grabbed the cop's revolver and shot said husband to death and then handed the surprised cop his empty revolver back.

Both of these scenarios are not likely BUT they can and have happened.

those of us in the united states live in a violent land. does it have to be that way forever?

Violence is unfortunately a limited but normal aspect of life. How we control violence is the measure of our humanity. Sometimes a gun is a superior method to control violence that would do us harm. It will be that way forever. Pandora's box is open.

[gorfle]

92. I respect your choice.

I respect your choice not to own a firearm. I hope you will respect my choice to own them.

[baldguy]

98. Gun worshipers think their gun is more important than your life,

[gorfle]

100. Our guns are more important to me than...

...your life.

The ability to secure life and liberty collectively is more important than any of our lives individually. This is why we must bear the consequences of the misuse of freedom rather than restrict freedom.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Our founders thought that the ownership of firearms was an essential liberty, and we will not relinquish them to buy a little temporary safety - even for you.

[jmg257]

103. Not so much 'more important' as 'inconsequantial'.

But there is alot at stake to just give them up because someone somewhere thinks it might save someone else's life.

My family gets the priority if/when I have to choose.