Cenk Uygur: Have We Reached the Tipping Point on Guns?

[marmar]

from HuffPost:



Cenk Uygur
Host of The Young Turks
Posted April 5, 2009 | 02:21 AM (EST)

Have We Reached the Tipping Point on Guns?


How many shootings does there have to be in the news before we wonder about the wisdom of allowing just about anyone to get a gun in America? Our gun culture is completely out of control.

In just the last two days we have had 13 people killed in Binghamton, NY with a 9 mm and a .45-caliber, three police officers shot and killed in Pittsburgh with an assault rifle and two other guns, and a five children killed with a shotgun in Washington at the hands of their own father. How many will it take before we say enough is enough?

How about the eight people killed in a nursing home in North Carolina a couple of days before these shootings? How about the ten killed in Alabama a couple of weeks earlier? Is there any point when gun rights advocates would admit that we have too much gun violence in America? What will it take for them to acknowledge the most obvious thing in the world?

Of course, their answer is that we don't have enough guns in the country. If we just allowed concealed weapons at schools, nursing homes, work, bars, airports and just about anywhere else you can imagine, then we would have less gun violence. Yes, maybe in bizzaro world, but in this world the more guns we have had in this country the more people have been shot ... with guns.

The Washington case is a good example. Would that father really have been able to kill his four young daughters and his young son without a shotgun? Maybe, it's happened before. But it would have been a hell of a lot harder and hell of a lot less likely. And what would have been the NRA alternative fix here - arm the kids?

I know it's a political impossibility, but we need to reign in the permissive gun culture in America. I've gone to a shooting range several times. I get the allure of it. It's fun and empowering. Until someone gets their head blown off. It's madness that almost anyone can stroll into a Wal-Mart and walk out with a deadly weapon. Guns should be the hardest things to get in America, not the easiest.

So, will a sizeable group of politicians have the courage to step up and demand tighter regulations of firearms in this country after all of these shootings? Have we reached the tipping point? And if not, what will it take? How many more mass murders do we have to go through before we realize how crazy this is?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/have-we-reache...

[Junkdrawer]

1. Here's how easy it is to buy an AK-47 in Pittsburgh: "Me & my AK-47"...

....

Firearms Unlimited followed all of the laws. Canella even cajoled me into a four-day wait period while I applied for the Pennsylvania driver’s license.

I had entered the store at 1:22 p.m. Store clerk Brandon Moore loaded the gun into my trunk at 2:22 p.m. The actual purchase took an hour because of cash register technicalities.

Six days after Watts was murdered, four days after I applied for a driver’s license, one hour after entering the store and five minutes after a criminal record check, I legally owned a semiautomatic AK-47-style rifle.

....

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_318331...

[Pavulon]

4. Did the author go on a murder spree with that semi auto?

did rape some women on his way home? I mean how can a person have a penis and not just go raping people?

So a person legally bought a rifle. You think this is the process used by criminals?

How hard is it to get coke,weed, and hookers? They are banned.

[Celtic Pax]

7. AK-47 or what?

Was the weapon an AK-47 or what? When these types of events occur, media is apt to refer to the weapons as "AK-47s" but what exactly was it? Just because a weapon fires semi-automatically doesn't make it an assault weapon. Interesting discussion on weapons of this type: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[slackmaster]

31. The guy who murdererd those cops in Pittsburgh didn't get his weapons that way

He would have failed the federal background check because of his dishonorable discharge from the Marine Corps.

Whoever furnished him with firearms broke the law, even if it was a private sale.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_se...

[benEzra]

51. No, that was a non-automatic civilian rifle. A Romanian WASR, I think.

I own a Romanian SAR-1:



That's not an AK-47; it is a non-automatic civilian-only carbine that has never been used by any military on this planet.

[rl6214]

54. She did NOT buy an ak47

She bought an ak47 clone which is basically a sheep in wolfs clothing. It is a low powered hunting rifle dressed up to look like an evil ak47. Nothing more deadly about it than your average rifle. She went through all the appropriate background checks, left with her purchase and didn't go out and shoot anyone.

[jmg257]

57. An hour? Seems a bit long. nt

[hlthe2b]

2. the kneejerk emotional & paranoid response that comes from some...

even when the topic is assault rifles, rather than handguns or hunting rifles--even here on DU, would suggest no.

[Junkdrawer]

3. Hehe - The bat signal is up for sure and, within a few minutes...

NRA posters will be all over this thread.

Me? I'm going to enjoy a nice spring day....

[marmar]

5. Yup. I was wondering when the hijacking by the DU Gun Lobby would take place.

n/t

[aikoaiko]

46. poor put upon marmar -- having to face a difference of opinion on DU.

[Pavulon]

6. Ever been to Zurich, I have.

i dont understand how they can have guns and no crime. How is this possible? Gun shop near lucerne was really cool.

[Celtic Pax]

8. guns

When many people have weapons and know how to use them and they are readily available, it makes for very polite society. Criminals are not stupid. They don't go where the victim is armed and dangerous. A simple case of self preservation.

[Pavulon]

9. The swiss have a highly structured system for support

of their population. Part of this is dealing with the mentally ill, preventing people from hitting bottom, and some is cultural.

Israel is different from Switzerland but has a low per cap murder rate as well. Both have access to weapons.

The simple people who think this is a physical access issue are not aware of how reality works. Or they dont care, and prefer the illusion of doing something.

[Itchinjim]

12. It seems that many crazy people have weapons and know how to use them.

And they haven't been acting so polite lately. I guess the price the rest of us have to pay for your right to bear arms is a random massacre every couple of weeks.

[Pavulon]

15. Propose a solution.

I have, many times. I dont have a right to smoke weed but seems like I could find it if I wanted to. No right to snort coke, but it is still available. Even though it is BANNED. How is this possible? Gun laws work on those who elect to follow them.

Amend the constitution or sit down with this silliness. Your line of thinking ushered in the last republican take over of the government and did NOTHING to fix a problem. Maybe it would make you feel good.

Sweeping reform of health care and social support systems are a start. Drug laws drive a large amount of this violence. These spree things make great tv but the majority of gun crimes are taking place with no coverage.

[Itchinjim]

28. Solution?

Don't let crazy people have guns. But you're right, guns will always available to a person who really wants one. And thanks to the NRA lobby and irresponsible gun enthusiasts helping to flood the country with them, guns are very EASILY available to anyone who wants one, even those who shouldn't have a gun. Why on earth does a resonable person need to own an AK 47?

[Pavulon]

32. They got you with the orwell language. You have been bamboozled

the weapon is not an AK47. AK47s were select fire (safe,full auto, semi) rifles issued by the USSR. They are available here if you have 15,000 and the correct tax stamp and background check. A legal full auto AK has never been used in a crime. NFA weapons never show up in these things because rich people generally dont go on shooting sprees.

The weapon used in these crimes are replicas of the Kalashnikov battle rifle. Like how "stock" cars are used in nascar. They fire 1 round at a time, just like any other semi automatic rifle.

Define crazy, anyone who has ever been treated for ANY mental illness ever?

[Itchinjim]

41. Ok what's your solution?

Until poverty is eradicated, until we have universal health care and until we have rational drug laws, what is your solution to these sprees? AK-47 or replica, it still has the same fire power so I see not much difference. And no, crazy is not anyone who has been treated for mental illness. I never said anything of the sort and you know it.

[Pavulon]

43. Negative, an AK47 is a fully automaic rifle

the replica is a semi automatic no different than any number of semi automatic rifles. You cant ban the replicas because the look scary. They work the same as a 1000 dollar benelli hunting rifle.

[Furyataurus]

62. Hmmmmm

Until poverty is eradicated- That'll never happen most American's are too lazy.

until we have universal health care- Bad idea, raising taxes HIGHER and making the current situation WORSE.

and until we have rational drug laws- I agree that the non-violent offenders who have less than 8oz of weed should just have it taken from them and let go the first time. After that then they get a citation and go before the judge and get into a program. If they continue then they go to three strikes, IMO.

[NewMoonTherian]

69. You aren't paying attention.

I'm very sorry if I seem rude - I try to maintain as level a head as I can - but I refuse to believe you're so obtuse as to honestly believe a civilian-model AK-47 replica has the same firepower as the original. It's with a certain sense of masochism that I delve into this again, but I'm gonna do it, nonetheless.

The AK-47, M-16 and other military infantry assault rifles("assault rifle" and "assault weapon" are terms for two extremely different classes of weapons) are capable of automatic operation. This means the when you pull and hold the trigger, bullets are fired in a series with rapid succession. This continues until you release the trigger or until the magazine(bullet reservoir) is empty.

The AK-47 replicas(I don't know if they have a distinct name), as well as the AR-15(which is the semi-automatic precursor to the M-16) and other civilian assault weapons are only capable of semi-automatic(the prefix "semi-" means "half" or "partial", so this term means partially-automatic) operation. When you pull the trigger, one bullet fires, the gun automatically readies another bullet, and the operation is over. You must fully release the trigger and pull it again to fire another single bullet.

Automatic/Fully Automatic - rapid fire, "spray" is possible. Rate of fire(M-16) ~800 rounds/minute

Semi-Automatic - one bullet per trigger pull, no "spray". (Anyone know how many rounds an average person can fire in a minute?)

So, while the civilian model fires a round of the same power, the firepower is not remotely comparable.

[Fumesucker]

42. Iraq is a very polite society?

Downtown Baghdad doesn't seem all that polite to me..

[TheWraith]

23. Switzerland has next to no poverty.

That's what it comes down to. People blame other things, but poverty is the leading cause of ALL violence in America. Period. It feeds gangs, theft, suicides, hopeless desperation, everything.

[Pavulon]

26. Correct. Fixing that requires effort and hard work.

gun control is look good feel good.

[TheWraith]

22. So what's the difference between an "assault weapon" and a hunting rifle, pray tell?

The reason there's a "response" is because people don't know what they're talking about. An "assault weapon" (which, by the way, is a made up scare term just like "partial birth abortion") is simply a semi-automatic rifle that functions like any other, one that's modeled on the looks of a military built weapon. But it's still one trigger pull, one bullet, and you can't ban it without banning all semi-automatic rifles.

There's about 37.5 million weapons which qualify as "assault weapons" in America today. Despite the paranoia about them, upwards of 85% of all crimes involving a gun still use handguns. In New York in 2007 we had 800 gun homicides. Rifles of all kinds, including "assault weapons," accounted for just twelve of those.

[hlthe2b]

27. semi-automatic rifles have one advantage only: to maximize the

number of rounds available to shoot and shoot quickly. Call me old fashioned, but I don't think the average deer poses that large a threat to a hunter.

I'm really sick of the semantics. I'm not anti-gun, just rational on the issue.

[Occam Bandage]

30. It lets you fire a second shot if you miss the first

without having to spend a few seconds working the bolt action and then re-aiming, at which point the target would probably be long gone.

[hlthe2b]

33. You make it seem like the difference is 'one' versus 'two' rounds...

OB, that is quite the understatement

[Occam Bandage]

34. It is. It is also the difference between one and four or five rounds,

but I think the difference between one and two rounds is probably the biggest for hunters. I agree that there's no practical use for a 30-round magazine, but I think that a 30-round magazine is not particularly more dangerous than a 10-round one.

[hlthe2b]

36. re: "I think that a 30-round magazine is not particularly more dangerous

than a 10-round one" in your last reply.... NOT, unless YOU are on the receiving end.

[Pavulon]

37. It takes maybe 2 seconds to swap a mag out..

so this is all childish. The problem is with the person. you can not ban your way around this.

[Hangingon]

38. The problem is that we have almost no possibility of compromise

Bill Ruger and Joakim Jackson (former Texas Ranger and NRA board member) have suggested a compromise on high capacity magazines. They were immediately attacked because every compromise effort has been met with a demand for additional bans. Bills have been crafted that outlaw semi-auto wweapons - including many shotguns. I do not think you will be able to convince the gun owners that compromise will not result in the ultimate goal of banning gun ownerhip.

[Stellabella]

39. Yep. They don't even stop to think.

Right away it's 'waaahhhh - waaaaaahhhhhhhh, don't take away my guuuunnnnssssss!'

Facts mean nothing to them. Real life means nothing to them.

Jesus God, I'm sick of the slaughter in this country caused by the worship of guns and ammo.

[Yukari Yakumo]

10. Gun control is a losing proposition.

Sure, go for more gun control laws... if you want to lose most, if not all, of the gains made on '06 and '08.

Furthermore, gun control laws have frequently been proven to have no effect on violent crime at all.

[KittyWampus]

11. It isn't just the physical existance and easy availability of guns. It's gun violence implanted in

our collective minds daily on tv. It's the use of gun violence in our video games.

You can argue "that's just pretend", but the Subconscious Mind doesn't distinguish between pretend and real.

It acts on whichever input is most recent, emotionally charged, repeated often, given focus.

And as the individuals in our society continue to flush the Archetype "Gun Violence" into the Collective Unconscious, it's inevitable that unstable individuals will enact those unhealthy patterns.

Be the change you want to see in the world. You don't want violence? Don't watch it, don't play it.

[TheWraith]

73. No, it's not. People were killing each other for centuries before we invented TV.

Some of the most violent places in the world have never even seen a video game. I will shout this at anyone who will listen: Violence tracks directly with poverty.

[L0oniX]

13. When you can manage to get all the guns out of the hands of criminals...

I will get rid of mine!

[Stellabella]

40. Heh. Heh heh.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAAAA!

You win the prize for the stupidest response of the day.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

14. +5

[corruptmewithpower]

16. LETHAL LAWS

A. Genocide: The Down-side of "Gun Control"

"Gun control" advocates cannot see any harm in "gun control".

But "gun control" has a down-side. A very nasty one. "Gun control" victims number in the tens of millions.

The down-side of "gun control" is genocide.


http://www.gunownersalliance.com/Lethal-Laws_Preface.ht...

[Celeborn Skywalker]

17. I'm against most gun control.

I, personally, wouldn't mind more stringent background tests or psychological tests but the harsh truth is that, in this country at least, the Democrats will lose the majority in Congress if they push such legislation. I'm also not convinced it would significantly lower gun-related deaths.

[X_Digger]

56. NICS needs to be fully funded

If states were uniform and complete with what they report to NICS, folks like Cho wouldn't have gotten their hands on guns. It's not a total solution, but I can see it as a concrete step in the right direction (keeping the guns out of the hands of whackos, not banning guns.)

[Tim01]

18. Nobody is freaking out over alcohol deaths, twice that of guns.

And that shows the motivation is not really about the dead people.

There should be twice as much outrage over alcohol, there isn't. There never has been.


Here, visualize a compact car that contains a pregnant mom and a child passenger UNDER a pickup which has crushed it, with blood literally running into the gutter.True story, drunk driver.
Want more "alcohol control" laws now?
No?
I didn't think so.

[JVS]

19. It's not the guns, it's the society in which we live.

[MadHound]

20. True that, but the question becomes

If our society is so insane, do we really want the free flow of guns that we have now? After all, we don't give guns to insane people, should we really allow the sort of access to the type of guns we have out there in our insane society?

[TheWraith]

24. Yeah, but probably not the way you're thinking.

People were killing each other for centuries before we had violent TV and movies, video games, etcetera. And some of the most violent parts of the world have never even seen any of those. It's all about poverty/hopelessness. We have a serious poverty problem in our society, which feeds all of our causes of violence.

[JVS]

25. Actually I was thinking of the poverty. We live in a society that is destroying us.

[TheWraith]

55. In that case I agree with you completely.

Poverty is the giant pink elephant in the room.

[FudaFuda]

21. This problem is butkus next to DUI.

I previously posted this in a 'gungeon' thread, but it applies here too.

This past month has been a particularly bad one for 'gone postal' spree killers for some reason. There's no easy explanation as to why, but it has happened. Next month, I'm certainly hoping for peace. But that kind of tragedy will happen, from time to time, in our country and in others, for as long as humans exist as a species. Any student of history can confirm this, and it doesn't take a gun to kill a bunch of people (and Japan is proof that in the absence of guns, the crazies find other ways to do it).

Anyway, let's put the problem into perspective a bit. We're a nation of what, about 300 million people? The killing spree events of the past month have resulted in the deaths of (I think) less than 50 people. I read 44 yesterday, and then we had the Pittsburgh thing today. And this is, no one can deny, about the worst month for this we've all ever seen.

In the same month, drunk driving has killed about 1400 people. And that's the average number of alcohol related highway deaths every month of every year - almost 17,000 a year. And besides prosecuting the few we catch, what do we do about it? Nada. We could easily make every damn car sold with a built-in breathalyzer. Why don't we? There's no constitutional right to driving drunk. And no matter what argument you make about the necessity of automobiles, again there's no necessity whatsoever for drunks behind the wheel. And yet we won't take those 1400 deaths or so every month seriously. But in one extremely bad month of spree shooters, less than 50 are killed and people are fuckin scared it's gonna happen in their town tomorrow.

The cable news networks don't get you to stop what you're doing and remained glued to your TV for hours when they talk about drunk driving statistics. But one guy with a gun will keep our attention peeled for a whole day. Never mind if the intense coverage and attention (fame) given the gunman inspires other nutcases to aspire to their own glory by killing more. It's ratings that matter. Meanwhile, the odds of you or your family being killed by a drunk are exponentially greater, every day.


Now, I'm not saying gun control advocates are insane for being concerned. But if making society safer and reducing needless death is really your primary goal, then refocus on DUI. Or is your real priority just guns?

[Occam Bandage]

29. How draconian would gun laws have to be

to prevent someone from having access to a 9mm pistol?

[bossy22]

44. enough

to be shot down by a court

[benEzra]

53. Or a 12-gauge shotgun? (n/t)

[sellitman]

35. I say ban all guns!

But lets do it only after the economy is booming, the earth is saved from global warming, we have universal health coverage for everyone and Gay & Lesbians have the same rights and privileges I do.

Otherwise we have more important stuff to accomplish.

[aikoaiko]

45. i thought Cenk was above this kind of call to roll back civil rights in the face of tragedy.

I hate it when the left media dishonor themselves.

[Joe Steel]

48. By advocating rational public policy?

I hate it when the left media dishonor themselves.

By advocating rational public policy?

[aikoaiko]

49. I'm all for laws and rules that keep guns out of the hands of prohibited folks.

but not at the expense of law abiding folks being able to keep and bear arms for self-defense.

Cenk says, "Guns should be the hardest things to get in America,...". Not for the law abiding it shouldn't. Any more than due process should be reduced because criminals get out on technicalities, or presidential elections should be banned because we voted in Bush, etc.

[Joe Steel]

59. Guns Should be Inacessible

Cenk says, "Guns should be the hardest things to get in America,...". Not for the law abiding it shouldn't. Any more than due process should be reduced because criminals get out on technicalities, or presidential elections should be banned because we voted in Bush, etc.

In fact, guns should be inacessible for anyone who can't demonstrate a need. Just wanting a gun shouldn't be enough.

[aikoaiko]

61. Should an individual have to demonstrate a need for poilitical speech or vote?

That the thing about civil rights, the constitution protect them so that fear mongers cannot take them away.

[Raskolnik]

64. It's the Bill of Rights. Not the Bill of Needs.

I don't have to prove to you that I "need" to own a semi-automatic 30.06 or a 12ga shotgun any more than I have have to prove to you that I "need" to own a copy of Das Kapital or Mein Kampf.

My rights are not based on what you think I "need."

[Joe Steel]

65. In fact, they are.

My rights are not based on what you think I "need."

In fact, they are.

Not me personally, of course, but on the will and opinion of the community. All rights come from law or public opinion. Your rights are no more than the People want them to be.

[X_Digger]

66. Oh Jebus, not this crap again..

We are the proletariat, collective 'we', there is no such thing as an individual right outside of some judge's mind, right?

You're late for your revolution, it was 1917.

[Joe Steel]

70. No. That's not what I said.

there is no such thing as an individual right outside of some judge's mind, right?

No. That's not what I said and I don't see anyway to get it from what I said.

This may be too difficult for you.

[X_Digger]

76. No, I just know where you're headed from past discussions. n/t

[Raskolnik]

68. You have it exactly backward. The burden of "need" is placed on those

seeking to *restrict* a right protected by the Constitution, not those seeking to exercise those rights. I do not have to make an affirmative showing that I "need" to be represented by counsel at a criminal trial, I do not have to show that I "need" to read a particular newspaper, and I do not have to demonstrate to you (or the community) that I "need" to keep arms.

If you, or the community, want to restrict those rights, you have to demonstrate a compelling reason for restriction.


edit clarity

[Joe Steel]

71. Thirteen dead in New York.

If you, or the community, want to restrict those rights, you have to demonstrate a compelling reason for restriction.

Thirteen dead in New York.
Three dead in Pennsylvania.
Six dead in Washington.

Do you find the toll compelling?

[Raskolnik]

72. You and Bush share the desire to use tragedy as an excuse to restrict liberty.

I do not share that with you.

[Joe Steel]

74. Should we just step over their bodies?

You and Bush share the desire to use tragedy as an excuse to restrict liberty.

I do not share that with you.

Should we just step over their bodies and add them to the growing cost of "freedom?"

[Raskolnik]

75. No, we should resist the urge to give in to fearmongers like you and Bush

who want to use the deaths of innocent people as an excuse to restrict civil liberties.

[bossy22]

50. whose

making that determination


in NY its very hard to get a handgun, but hey...the guys still managed to do it

[Joe Steel]

60. "Gun Control" Doesn't Work

in NY its very hard to get a handgun, but hey...the guys still managed to do it

Exactly.

"Gun control" doesn't work. The only way to lower the toll and preserve civilization is a strictly enforced public policy limiting gun possesion to those who can demostrate sufficient need.

[benEzra]

52. Yes, we have. The nation has finally told the pro-ban fearmongers to shove it.

And there is no single style or class of firearm in the recent shootings to built momentum for another ban on protruding handgrips or whatever. The guy in North Carolina was a hunter who used a hunting shotgun and a camouflage deer rifle, AFAIK; the guy in New York used a couple of common handguns a la the Virginia Tech shooter; the guy in Pennsylvania used a popular mid-caliber civilian rifle that looks like an AK; the California rapist/murderer/carjacker used an ordinary pistol and a common SKS; the Alabama shooter used an AR-15, the most popular centerfire rifle in America.

I do think the breakdown of the social contract is the underlying cause here, and a lot of THAT can be laid at the feet of the fearmongers who threw away Congress in '94 over stupid and pointless gun restrictions. I am not sure we'd be where we are now as a nation had we never had the Iraq war, the Patriot Act/Surveillance Nation, DOJ-sanctioned torture, and the financial black hole the country has been pouring money into since 2000.

[jmg257]

58. Not yet...this too shall pass, unless another incident follows PDQ.

[Raskolnik]

63. It's frustrating when someone uses fear-mongering to advocate for limiting civil liberties.

It was bullshit when Bush did it, and its bullshit when Cenk Uygur does it.

[Hugabear]

67. The answer obviously is MORE GUNS!

If EVERYONE is packing heat, then there would be hardly ANY gun violence.