Question about NFA title 3 weapons.

[TheWraith]

I've never cared much about NFA 3 weapons before, but this came up and I didn't know the answer. Suppose you own a Title III weapon. Select fire rifle, specifically, and you don't want to leave it as just a collector's piece. What happens if and when it becomes worn out or needs replacement parts? Some you might be able to replace with standard issue parts (the weapon also has a conventional, semi-auto equivalent) but wouldn't other parts be unavailable due to their full auto nature? Are all the parts most susceptible to wear ones that could simply be swapped out from a "regular" gun?

[Howzit]

1. Speaking as an engineer rather than a legal expert

The barrel would wear out first and could be replaced with one from a semi-auto. By the time the barrel needed replacement, the recoil spring would have been replaced a few dozen times; again from a semi-auto.

The full-auto parts live in the receiver and include the trigger, sear and hammer. I don't know if the semi and full auto versions use a different bolt, but it is likely that they do. These parts would probably last through several dozen barrels worth of fire, except for springs, that could be replaced fairly easily with custom made ones, if needs be.

The question is, what happens when the full-auto bits are worn out or broken - can these be replaced under the existing NFA permission? Ask the BATF.

[one-eyed fat man]

6. Knob Creek

One of the big reasons to attend shoots like Knob Creek is the sale of parts for old guns. Were you to be there this upcoming weekend you likely find parts to fix almost anything.

The rub comes in if a receiver breaks. Currently the the ATF and NFA allow the original manufacturer to build a replacement receiver for a properly registered NFA firarm. Good luck in getting Rheinmettall to replace your MG34 receiver.

Original military surplus US machinegun parts are pretty available except for the M14. Many of the government contract parts that could be used were used up long ago in building M1A's.

Also when the ATF sent out their industry letter concerning the 5 M16 firecontrol parts, they put in place other pitfalls.

"........that an individual, who possesses a registered M-16 machinegun, certain AR-15 type automatic rifles and M-16 type fire control components may have a combination of parts from which an additional and unregistered machinegun can be assembled."

ATF letter M16 spare parts

And anyone who has dealt with the ATF on NFA matters knows that even a letter in hand that says you CAN do something is worthless as defense whenever they take a notion to change their mind.

[rl6214]

2. All parts

Are readily available to repair worn out parts. Whether a bolt, carrier,trigger control group they can be purchased. Many of the small springs and pins in the lower reciever are the same ones used in their semi-auto cousins.

[slackmaster]

3. Replacement parts are easily available for most automatic firearms

If you had something very old and rare, you would have some problem finding original replacement parts. But anything can be manufactured from scratch if necessary.

Some you might be able to replace with standard issue parts (the weapon also has a conventional, semi-auto equivalent) but wouldn't other parts be unavailable due to their full auto nature?

Legally there is only one part that is regulated under federal law - The frame or reciever. In some cases like the Browning M1919 and similar weapons, the numbered part is just a side plate.

[old mark]

4. As far as I know, anyone can buy the parts for a class III firearm, but

you have to legally own the licensed gun to install them legally.

If you are looking for specific parts for a specific firearm, PM me - I might be able to tell you where to look.

mark

[gorfle]

5. I believe Old Mark is correct.

Anyone can buy machine gun parts. You don't even need a Class III license.

But if you own a fully-automatic, registered, transferable RECEIVER, then you need a Class III license.

If you are in possession of fully-automatic parts and a semi-automatic receiver that they might fit in, you are in violation of federal law even if the parts are not installed in the receiver.

[JoeyMac1]

10. No such thing as a Class 3 license

In the NFA world there are Dealers and Private Citizens. To be a "dealer" you must have an SOT status and FFL. The type of SOT/FFL you have determines whether you are a manufacturer, dealer, importer, etc...

To be a Private Citizen and own NFA stuff you only need to have an approved Form 4. A Form 4 is, more or less, a tax reciept simply stating you've paid the $200 excise tax for an item. It is not a permit. It is a tax document (the ATF is a division of the Treasury Dept.) and as such you are not required by law to show it to anybody requesting to see it unless they are an Agent of the Treasury Dept. (BATFE). If a cop wants to see "your papers" for your machinegun at the range you have every right to tell him to go **** himself. Although be prepared to eat dirt and get thrown into the backseat of a cruiser. It's best to just be curteous and comply.

[one-eyed fat man]

12. Form 4's, 5320.20's and paperwork

As an NFA owner also, a Notarized and Certified Copy of the Form 4 is in the gun case with each NFA firearm I own. The originals, with the signed and canceled tax stamp are secured in a fireproof safe along with other irreplaceable documents like the deed to the house, etc. If going across state lines with an NFA weapon, to a shoot, for example, a form called a 5320.20 is needed. The ATF will almost always approve them, and fairly quickly, assuming the purpose (generally stated) for the movement is legitimate, and the destination state allows the weapon in question.

More than one NFA owner has managed to avoid going to jail over a weapon the ATF swore was not registered by producing the original document.

ATF Record Issues

[TheWraith]

7. Thanks. It was mostly a theoretical question...

It was prompted by seeing somebody selling a factory full-auto version of a Springfield Armory M1A. It made me wonder what you'd do if you had a full-auto weapon that you didn't want to treat as a museum piece, and whether you'd be writing off any future value it held.

[old mark]

8. Actually I was wrong - PLEASE check the article on Wikipedia

for National Firearms Act. It prints out to 7 pages, but the law was ghanged some years ago so that certain parts of certain guns are not legal to own - example is that trigger group parts of actual M-16's, either full auto or 3 round burst capable, are illegal to own unless you have paid the $200 registration fee and done the paperwork, including a fingerprint card for the ATF-in other words, a part is treated like a gun. (This also applies to silencer parts-each baffle for a silencer is treated as a seperate unit, and requires its own paper work.)
I would recommend you read the entire artricle if you are planning to "experiment" or just for your edification - I would not want to get anyone in federal trouble because I gave them the wrong information.

Just Google NFA Class III Parts and te article will be there somewhere.
FWIW, you can get most of these parts from Numrich/gunpartsco in New York state online.
mark

[TheWraith]

11. No problem, as I'm not planning on experimenting with anything.

Really it's mostly just a question for my edification. I can barely afford a rifle at the moment, let alone a full auto one.

[old mark]

13. I was always interested in the old 1918A1 BAR military rifle,

and found a company that makes both semi-auto versions and re-built full auto military versions.

The prices make your eyes water.

I settled for a FAL, and I really like it.

mark

[JoeyMac1]

9. Owner of a (registered) title 2 weapon here.

Preface: This is not a striaght forward question so I'll do my best to address the issue (with some example too) because, to some extent, it depends on the particular weapon. The most common FA firearms are Macs (Mac10, Mac11, Mac11/9), Uzis (Full , Mini, Micro), and M16s (Registered reciever, RDIAS, and LL). There's a couple other very popular title 2 firearms but these three are the "biggies". Many of the parts in the firearms will be the same as thier semi-automatic relatives. Barrels, stocks, magazines, handgaurds, bolts & carriers (M16), chambers, etc. The differences between FA and Semi generally always lie in the 'trigger pack', sears, and often (but not always) bolts. Semiautomatic guns generally require significant machining or work to even accept these FA parts and any semiautomatic easily convertible to FA by such methods is considered a machinegun itself (google: open bolt semiauto MAC). It's not just a "Drop in a selector switch" issue I've read on this forum - that concept is 100% ignorant and puts you on the same mental playing field as Sarah Palin, imo.

A "machinegun" is the part(s) registered with the ATF. Generally, it's the firearm receiver body itself but it could also be the trigger pack or full-auto-enabling parts(s). So we have two avenues to obtain a legal full auto: registerd firearm/receiver or registered "guts", more or less. For example, if you owned a registered-drop-in-auto-sear (RDIAS) or Lightning Link (LL) then that part alone IS the machinegun. It can be installed into any M16 semi-auto variant or compatible AR15 to produce a legal machinegun. The same option exists for HK guns (tigger packs), Ruger 10/22 (Norrell trigger packs), numerous other guns, and some Uzis even have registered full auto bolts. For non-nfa firearms using machinegun registered parts, if anything non-NFA on the firearm breaks then it can be fixed/replaced by anybody as those parts are not regulated. Non-FA parts that are not unique to strictly full auto variants are not regulated even if they are used on full autos (example: barrels). If you have a registered reciever body that breaks or your registered parts/guts break then you have to have them repaired by an approved Manufacturer or SOT. If you are not a licensed Class III SOT/FFL it would be very unwise to make/modify parts for full autos yourself regardless if you have an approved ATF Form 4 or not. Only certain SOTs/FFLs are authorized for repair/manufacture of regulated items. The process is similar to how you would have a silencer repaired... transfer the broken regulated items to a person certified to receive/repair them (local or interstate) and they are sent back to you when finished. Typically, because your item is worth thousands of dollars and the number of licensed 'repairmen' are few, service will be costly and turnaround slow.

This brings up the question, "What if I have a registered reciever that has broken full auto parts in it. Can I just get the little parts I need?" Yes and no. This is a grey area, legally. If I owned a registered MAC or M16 and the reciever was registered, there are full auto guts available from some shops I can use for replacement. These shops will generally make an effort to ensure you have the registerd NFA MG. At this point it's worth mentioning that the ATF considers possession of full auto parts actual possession of a machinegun. If you have a full auto parts kit you'd better damn well have a registered machinegun. Having an AK FA parts kit and an AK semiauto clone (WASR/MAK90/etc) is constructive intent and you will get nailed for having a machinegun even if your legal AK clone was not machined for compatability (because it will need work to be able to accept FA parts). Likewise, if you have a semiauto AK or AR15 and all or some work is perfomed on the firearm to be able to accept full auto parts... you have a machinegun. This situation means that it's a grey area, legally, for registered NFA owning people to have spare FA parts onhand because they are (unregistered) machineguns by themselves. The best course of action is to replace non-serialized regulated componets and destory the old ones - keeping no spares onhand. Even better is to send it to someone autorized to repair/replace componets. Keep in mind: NFA firearms (the registered/serialized part) themselves cannot be REPLACED. If your Reciever/RDIAS/LL/Registered Bolt melts in a housefire, gets dropped into a volcano, explodes, turned into dust by GORT, elopes with the neighbors' pitbull, whatever... tough shit - it's gone. Only weapons made & registered BEFORE May 1986 can be registered. You cannot remake the part and simply stamp the same information on it. That's a good way to go to prison.

Generally parts suseptable to wear are not the serialized parts or can be repaired easily. For example, Mac 11 sears and trigger groups commonly wear down and stop functioning (btw, these parts are not found in semiauto clones). Because only the reciever is registered, those parts can be replaced using the above mentioned means of repairing/replacing regulated unserialized parts. On the other hand, Mac recievers are just bent/welded sheetmetal. They crack/break occasionally and repair is required to be done by certified indivuals. Generally they are always repairable but if not the firearm is rendered useless, destroyed, and ceases to exist - investment lost. In contrast Lightning Links, serialized devices used to make the AR15 fully automatic only, often incur alot of wear and eventually will become wornout. Because it is the serialized part, it can only be worked on by a SOT/FFL repair is not possible it is lost. This is why a LL sells for half the value of an RDIAS or Registered Reciever despite the fact they all accomplish the same end goal: Full auto AR.

For some reason DU keeps banning me, and I've given up trying to register and "play-nice" so copy this message if you want to save it.
I'm not a republican, freeper, whatever - I guess DU just doesn't like me. Sorry about the long post. I'll stick around as long as I can to answer any ?'s
It's been nice while it lasted,
Joe

(edited: numerical mistake)

[chibajoe]

14. Very informative post

[SlipperySlope]

15. A simple answer

Several of the (very good) answers already posted are factually correct but also long on details.

Here is a short answer that is correct for 99.9% of situations that would arise.

If you lawfully own a machine gun, there is one specific part that is legally considered to be "the machine gun". For most machine guns that part is the upper or lower receiver; or what a layman might call the "frame".

Every single part other than that part can be lawfully repaired or replaced if it is damaged or wears out. You could either repair the original part or replace it with a new part.

For the specific part that is considered to be the machine gun, there are some restrictions. You can do repairs so long as the ATF does not consider them to be manufacturing a replacement part. As examples; You are allowed to weld a crack in your receiver. You are not allowed to machine a new receiver from a piece of steel and transfer the serial numbers from your old receiver. Somewhere between those extremes is a gray area that is up to ATF interpretation.