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Furyataurus Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 07:50 PM
Original message
Why the gun is a civilized act
Found this awhile ago, thought I'd share:


http://munchkinwrangler.blogspot.com/2007/03/why-gun-is-civilization.html

Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force. If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force. Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that's it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion. Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force. You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force. The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gangbanger, and a single gay guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations. These are the people who think that we'd be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a mugger to do his job. That, of course, is only true if the mugger's potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat--it has no validity when most of a mugger's potential marks are armed. People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that's the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there's the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury. This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser. People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don't constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst. The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level. The gun is the only weapon that's as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weightlifter. It simply wouldn't work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn't both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don't do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I'm looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don't carry it because I'm afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn't limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation...and that's why carrying a gun is a civilized act.
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. carrying your gun concealed negates your entire argument nt
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. Not at all.
Conceal carry just keeps the element of surprise with the defender.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. You find it impossible to be armed and reasonable?
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walkaway Donating Member (725 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Or maybe you should carry a nuclear bomb in your underpants
The same argument holds true and you can be extra protected!
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. How would that provide protection against someone behaving criminally?
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bravo, or perhaps Brava because your gender is indterminate
I understand that they are now banning the sale if kitchen knifes in Great Britan now to people under 18. Are baseball bats, or perhaps Cricket bats next? People who want to kill people will find a way no matter what. People who would prefer not to be killed would do well to own at least one gun and practice with it and be trained to use it safely.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. I can't remember where it was now.
But there was at least one place in history where they got down to banning sticks.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. It was the rock band 'Stix' which was banned, and rightfully so. nt
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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. sadly, I still have hammers, saws, files and icepicks
Guess I'm just a mass murderer. Oh well, it's much easier with a 1911.
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napoleon_in_rags Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. Its an interesting argument.
But reason is a slippery thing. Namely, how does having the gun effect reasoning? Does it make one's arguments ... more persuasive? Especially against a person without a gun? What about when people both have guns? Then its about the value of life. Will the guy with the swatstika on his forehead talking about the 83 virgins Jesus will give him when he dies have more "reasonable" arguments than the guy with a family who doesn't want to die in a shootout? The old west doesn't give us the picture of a land where only the reasonable prevailed, I can't see Billy the kid defeating Socrates in a debate.



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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. "only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force"
Obscuration is not necessarily reason or force, but it is definitely a way of dealing with others.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.

Many people are killed while holding a firearm. This is another statement which is obviously false.

If both are armed, the field is level.

If both parties are aware of each other. If I come up behind you and start shooting, whether or not you have a firearm will most likely not matter.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. LOVE it when you talk dirty!
All hail JM Browning and the mighty .45! "Compensators" for everyone!
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Nice try.
A sharpshooter on the roof avoids all interaction. Any defensive tools you might be carrying are meaningless because you have no signal that you have entered the combat zone, just as if you had been hit in the back of the head with a shovel. But you already knew that....
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Is your knowledge of the natural, inherent, inalienable right to keep and bear arms GT than your IQ?
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. I support everyones right to keep and bear arms
I also support everyones right to keep and bear marijuana.

What I object to is guys who don't seem to be able to feel manly without carrying a gun.

It's OK to say you carry a handgun because you are afraid of being attacked. It doesn't mean you are a wimp or a wuss.

Just admit it. No gun - you're afraid. Gun - not afraid.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. It seems
the most strident, vitriolic, aggressive and outrageous observations are offered from those who dislike firearms who, I suppose, consider themselves to be the most non violent and non confrontational people around.

Interesting.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. A sharpshooter on the roof

or a baseball bat to the back of the head has the same result. I was a video of a guy walking down an average street when another guy hit him in the back of the head and killed him. It was a gang initiation.
Guns increase our odds. Sometimes bad guys kill,rob, rape, or torture average people. It it just mostly chance who they pick. A gun gives us a better chance of getting home alive to our families. And it gives a better chance to save others if the need arises, even people like you who hate us so much.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. Why does the anti-gun crowd have such an obsession with penis size?
It almost sounds like they are bragging about the size of their penis.

Men who go around bragging about their penis size are usually under endowed.

A woman who makes observations about male penis size is probably suffering from a degree of penis envy.

I've known a lot of male gun owners through the years and I've never heard any bragging or for that matter any talk about penis size. The subject doesn't seem to be of any great concern to them.





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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. LOL TIME TO TURN ON THE "BATLIGHT" ROFLMAO
Or " Gun Light" thingy
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HALO141 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
20. But nobody uses "sharpshooters"
except the government. Or is it the mob? (shrug) It's so hard to tell them apart.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Sometimes the "sharpshooters" are the mob hired by the government. (n/t)
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. people drink because they wanna be left alone too. nt
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-05-09 09:01 PM
Response to Original message
13. An appeal to force
is not civilized behavior. Civilized behavior is the result of reciprocity and a recognition of mutual interest. We are civilized when we cooperate, not when we fight.

We cannot compel civilized behavior with the threat of force. At best, the threat of a violent response will only redirect agression to a softer target.
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Furyataurus Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. That's only if
neither person wants to "force" the other to do what they want.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-06-09 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
25. how can an object be an act? n/t
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