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Lex1775 Donating Member (314 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:28 AM
Original message
CCW holders shoot Houston woman who shot man with bow and arrow
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/6219...

"A woman accused of shooting a man with a bow and arrow at her father's workplace before being shot by two civilians and a Houston police officer has been charged with aggravated assault with a deadly weapon.

Julie Parker, 33, was listed in fair condition at Ben Taub General Hospital today with several gunshot wounds suffered in the Monday afternoon incident."

*snip*

"After walking into the company's micro-electronics division, Parker shot Silva with an arrow and then pointed the apparent gun at two other employees, police said.

Those employees, who are licensed to carry concealed handguns, fired "numerous" shots at Parker, hitting her several times, investigators said.

Parker dropped her pistol, which later was found not to be a real gun, and retreated to an office with the bow and arrow, officers said. Workers at nearby businesses took cover and called police."

We live in strange times. :shrug:


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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. That's just wierd.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. I'll say it first
Never bring a bow and arrow to a gunfight?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. Wow, that's messed up.
:shrug:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Isn't there a saying about bringing a bow&arrow to gunfight? Oh wait that is a kinfe. (n/t)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. and this

will be why crossbows are prohibited weapons in Canada.

:evilgrin:

(I know, it wasn't likely a crossbow, which would likely have done more damage)


Interesting to note: if no one on the premises had had a firearm, it appears that no more injuries than the one arrow injury would have occurred.

The woman had a fake firearm. No one NEEDED to shoot her. But because two people had firearms on their person, they did shoot her. Had they not had the firearms, or had they not shot her ... well, I mean, how diffficult is it for a bunch of men to get a bow and arrow away from a woman, or avoid getting hit by arrows?

With more and more people wandering abroad with firearms on their person, how many people will be shot and possibly killed who don't NEED to be shot at all?

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Two things....
1. She had just attacked someone with a deadly weapon, and then pointed what appeared to be
another deadly weapon at two other people. Should they then have waited for her to fire at them
in order to confirm it was real? Sorry, I believe that was reasonable for the two men to infer that
they were in imminent danger of deadly harm.

2. In order for the men to get the bow and arrow away from the woman, they would have to approach
her within arms' (no pun intended) reach.

Since it only takes a couple of seconds to notch an arrow and
pull the bowstring back to full draw, trying to take the bow and arrow away would give someone
an excellent chance to be the *second* person to get shot with an arrow - and at very close
range to boot.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I give up

1. She had just attacked someone with a deadly weapon, and then pointed what appeared to be another deadly weapon at two other people. Should they then have waited for her to fire at them in order to confirm it was real?

WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME THIS?

I made NO comment on what they should or should not have done with the firearms they had on their persons.

Why don't you try addressing what I DID say?


2. In order for the men to get the bow and arrow away from the woman, they would have to approach
her within arms' (no pun intended) reach.


Yeah. Big brave boys, afraid to rush a woman with a bleeding bow and arrow.

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. In the interest of equality
Why aren't you jumping up to rush into the face of crazy people with sharp, pointy objects?

No big red S on your blue tights?

Your strategy sounds like Lord Kitchener's or Lord Chelmsford's, "Hey diddle diddle straight up the middle!" while leading from the rear. Easy to decry Tommy Atkins spinelessness safely esconced in GHQ.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. Bwhahahhahah!
No big red S on your blue tights?

Cough.

Bwhahahahahah! What a mental picture.
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. I was thinking Wonder Woman
but the picture of the cosplay Wonder Woman came to mind.

Yep, the (gimme a donut!) one standing on the sidewalk......THAT pic.




Excuse me, need to go pour bleach in my eyes!
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Perhaps you *should* give up...
Why don't you try addressing what I DID say?


OK, will do:

Interesting to note: if no one on the premises had had a firearm, it appears that no more injuries than the one arrow injury would have occurred.

The woman had a fake firearm. No one NEEDED to shoot her. But because two people had firearms on their person, they did shoot her..


Well, actually they shot her because 1. She had just shot someone with a deadly weapon, and
2. She then pointed what, to all appearances, was ANOTHER deadly weapon at them. The idea of
the "reasonable person" should be familiar to you.

Yeah, she would have surrendered quietly- not! From the article:

Police arrived about 3:15 p.m. and were told the woman was hiding in one of the rooms inside the office building. As the officers tried to rescue Silva, Sgt. M.S. O'Neil saw Parker pointing her bow and an arrow at him and drawing back the string, police said.

O'Neil, a 23-year HPD veteran, ordered her several times to drop the bow, police said. He fired several shots as she continued to point it at him, they said.


Yeah. Big brave boys, afraid to rush a woman with a bleeding bow and arrow.


Erm, hunting bows and arrows are used to kill thousands of deer every year in North America.

And before the advent of firearms they were a deadly weapon on the battlefield. Google
"Battle of Crecy" to see what they can do to people.

Anybody with a lick of common sense would be afraid of rushing a lunatic with a bow and arrow. Real life isn't a Chuck Norris movie. Armando Silva is lucky. FTA:


Police and witnesses said that Parker shot Armando Silva in the chest with a hunting bow and arrow after she entered the offices of Texas Components Corp. in northwest Houston.

Silva, 49, was reported in good condition at Ben Taub today....
....George Dustin, who owns a pool service company in the strip center, said he also heard several gunshots. He said he saw paramedics bring out Parker and Silva.

They had to get a bolt cutter to get the arrow out and put him in the ambulance, he said.









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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. can't do it, can you?

Can't address a simple issue in a straightforward manner.


Yeah, she would have surrendered quietly- not!

I guess someone must have said she would have.


Well, actually they shot her because 1. She had just shot someone with a deadly weapon, and 2. She then pointed what, to all appearances, was ANOTHER deadly weapon at them. The idea of the "reasonable person" should be familiar to you.

1. The fact that someone has just shot someone with a deadly weapon is not justification, or reason, to shoot him/her.

2. It was, to all appearances, another deadly weapon. But it wasn't. She evidently was NOT aiming an arrow at anyone, and she was NOT aiming any other deadly weapon at anyone.


And I did NOT say that no one was justified in shooting her.

I said that if they had NOT shot her, and had simply prevented her from stringing another arrow, there would have been no further injuries.

If they had NOT HAD FIREARMS in the situation, the outcome would, to all appearances, have been FEWER injuries.


It really is a very simple and clear concept. Why you would appear to be having such difficulty grasping it, I can't guess.


This is, of course, also an object lesson in the wisdom of not permitting the sale or possession of authentic-looking replica firearms ...

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. They were justified in shooting her- and to expect them to disarm her is unreasonable
Using a replica firearm while commiting a felony will get you the same sentence
as using a real one. Whether it was or wasn't a real gun, it looked like one, and
that *does* make a difference, legally. Check the case law about these sort of things.

It was reasonable for them to believe they were in imminent danger of grievous
bodily harm or death. I doubt they would be charged with anything in any other
state, much less Texas

If you really are that certain that shooting the woman was out of line, contact
her attorney and offer your help in a civil case against the men.

Like I said, it only takes a couple of seconds to notch an arrow and pull back the
drawstring. If the men were more than 2 seconds sprinting distance away from this
woman and tried to disarm her, the first one at least would have had a better-than
even chance of ending up like Mr. Silva.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. maybe if you look around
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 05:36 PM by iverglas

you will find the discussion you are attempting to participate in. I am not a party to it.


If you really are that certain that shooting the woman was out of line

If you can't read, take some lessons.

If you have some other reason for insinuating something that you know to be false ... well, there probably aren't lessons that would help.


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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Don't worry, iconoclast.
You've correctly interpreted Iverglas' comments, just as I did, and just any reasonable person would. She's just trying to backpedal out of it in an attempt to hide her obvious sympathy with the criminal, as per usual.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Fewer injuries.
1. The fact that someone has just shot someone with a deadly weapon is not justification, or reason, to shoot him/her.

But he didn't SAAAAAAY" that. What he is saying is the fact that she just did so clearly demonstrates that this lady was quite serious about murdering people. It demonstrated intent. So when she pulled out another weapon, they had absolutely no reason to doubt she would use it, based on point number one.

2. It was, to all appearances, another deadly weapon. But it wasn't. She evidently was NOT aiming an arrow at anyone, and she was NOT aiming any other deadly weapon at anyone.

But no one would reasonably assume that the fake weapon was not real.

And I did NOT say that no one was justified in shooting her.

But you're doing a damn fine job (again) of standing up for the bad guy (or girl, in this case).

I said that if they had NOT shot her, and had simply prevented her from stringing another arrow, there would have been no further injuries.

If they had NOT HAD FIREARMS in the situation, the outcome would, to all appearances, have been FEWER injuries.


But do you think anyone (well, besides you) is really sad here that Julie Parker today has a few more holes in her body?

This is, of course, also an object lesson in the wisdom of not permitting the sale or possession of authentic-looking replica firearms ...

They tried this when I was a kid. They made cap pistols that looked pretty realistic, and molded a big orange plug in the end of them. The first thing we did when we got home was break out the wood burning kit and melt that plug right out of the thing. We painted the funky-colored ones with black spray paint.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. what I do a damned fine job of
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 06:44 PM by iverglas

is standing up for the truth.

Let me know if you ever want to switch sides. I'll sell you a party card.


But do you think anyone ... is really sad here that Julie Parker today has a few more holes in her body?

Do you think I give a pinch of shit?

Think hard now.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
32. hahahahah
what I do a damned fine job of is standing up for the truth.

I think what you actually do a damned fine job of is being so wishy-washy on what you actually do stand for that it is virtually impossible for anyone to call you on it because you just retreat into your wishy-washyness to claim that's not what you really said.

I think you are afraid of standing up for anything, let alone truth, for fear of unequivocally staking a position. A true stand-up person would be much more forthright in their proclamations.

Do you think I give a pinch of shit?

Think hard now.


Just pointing out you're in the minority is all.

Maybe you should think hard about why that is.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
36. :D
I just love the 'pinch of shit' line every time you use it. In fact I have borrowed it several times. I usually say 'pinch o'shit' just add to the silliness..
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. It is good...
I also like "For the love of FUCK". It has become one of my favorite curse lines (when the kids aren't around).

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. How exactly does a bow and arrow bleed?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. what exactly have you ingested?
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. You wrote, "Big brave boys, afraid to rush a woman with a bleeding bow and arrow."
I just had a big bowl of rice to answer your question.

David
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. More of that intellectual honesty I see.
Nothing like a little Canadian revisionist history. You really do seem to be slipping.

David
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
18. Oh the incredulity!
WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME THIS?

Could it be because you inferred that they should not have shot her because the gun she had was fake?

That's what I read into what you said. Obviously iconoclast did, too.

But oh! I didn't SAAAAAAY that!

Yeah. Big brave boys, afraid to rush a woman with a bleeding bow and arrow.

Once again, Iverglas asserts that the upstanding citizens who brought down a violent criminal are somehow cowardly because they didn't choose to go mano-a-mano with the violent criminal.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:41 PM
Response to Reply #18
23. could it be that you have purported to infer something that is not true?

Could it be because you inferred that they should not have shot her because the gun she had was fake?

I didn't infer any such thing.

More to the point, I didn't imply any such thing.

But don't worry, I find it quite charming how you twist everything in the universe to suit your purposes.

You come up with nonsense like this, and it's just so cute.

Yes, indeed; I am very likely to have implied that someone should not have used force against a person holding a fake firearm, because it was found after the fact to have been fake.

Yes, indeed; I commonly say things just that moronic.

Problem here is: I didn't say it. You did.


Once again, Iverglas asserts that the upstanding citizens who brought down a violent criminal are somehow cowardly because they didn't choose to go mano-a-mano with the violent criminal.

Once again, you offer a portrayal of facts that is so divorced from the truth as to be mind-boggling.


What would these gents have done IF THEY HAD NOT HAD FIREARMS ON THEIR PERSON?

Anyone care to surmise?

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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Were there any 24" monitors handy?
That's my second line of defense. If it's a nokia, chances are the cord is fixed, so you can swing it around like a bolo.

(snerk)
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #23
47. Surmise! Surmise! Surmise!
(with apologies to Jim Nabors.)

What would these gents have done IF THEY HAD NOT HAD FIREARMS ON THEIR PERSON?

Anyone care to surmise?


(a) Cower under their desk and wait their turn to die.

(b) Run screaming like girls and jump out windows.

(c) Manfully tell the EMT, "It's just a flesh wound!......



But the important thing is that without guns, some crazy woman doesn't have to worry about being shot.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
48. don't worry, Iverglas.
You aren't out of step, the rest of the army is.

I didn't infer any such thing.

More to the point, I didn't imply any such thing.


Sorry, but you did.

But don't worry, I find it quite charming how you twist everything in the universe to suit your purposes.

You come up with nonsense like this, and it's just so cute.


Doesn't it ever give you pause how no one around here can correctly interpret what you say?

Yes, indeed; I am very likely to have implied that someone should not have used force against a person holding a fake firearm, because it was found after the fact to have been fake.

Yes, indeed; I commonly say things just that moronic.


Yes, you certainly do.

Problem here is: I didn't say it. You did.

Then why are you spending so much verbiage bemoaning the fact that it happened? Given your (as usual) ardent support for the criminal in this case, who the hell wouldn't infer that you think they should not have shot her?

And if you do think they should have shot her, why don't you just say so, instead of bemoaning the fact that they did?

You aren't fooling anyone, Iverglas.

Once again, Iverglas asserts that the upstanding citizens who brought down a violent criminal are somehow cowardly because they didn't choose to go mano-a-mano with the violent criminal.

Once again, you offer a portrayal of facts that is so divorced from the truth as to be mind-boggling.

Complete bullshit. Just like in the case of the fellow who shot the guy beating the store clerk, you directly question the bravery of the people who stopped the violent criminal.

Here's the quotes:

Yeah. Big brave boys, afraid to rush a woman with a bleeding bow and arrow.

looks like a cowardly asshole to me

If I observed someone beating someone about the head with a bottle, I'm pretty sure I'd grab the nearest object and smack him/her, or simply grab something and pull, without even thinking twice.

Taking the time to go out to a vehicle and get a gun ... the victim could have been dead by then, while the big brave rescuer was busy getting his fetish object, and making sure he didn't break a fingernail.

The only thing mind-boggling here is how you could possibly say that my portrayal of the facts is divorced from the truth.

As you very words demonstrate, you think these people are cowards because they didn't engage in a physical confrontation with the attackers.

What would these gents have done IF THEY HAD NOT HAD FIREARMS ON THEIR PERSON?

Anyone care to surmise?


Do what all defenseless people do in the face of armed thuggery - flee, submit, or try resisting with whatever they could, while possibly watching more violence unfold that they are unable to stop.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. speak for yourself bub
"no one around here can correctly interpret what you say"
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. There are...
There are far more people like me than you around here, I suspect.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. people who don't understand the english language? people who think
they can decide what words mean, despite dictionary definitions and usage among society? people like those?
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Yeah..
Yeah, that's it, I'm sure. :eyes:
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. we're in agreement then n/t
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Yeah...
Yeah, that's it, I'm sure. :eyes:
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. thanks for confirming that we are in agreement n/t
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Yeah...
Yeah, that's it, I'm sure. :eyes:
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Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Weapons arent the problem, crazy women are the problem...
and crazy men too.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Bow versus crossbow...
Crossbows are too powerful and therefore an unfair advantage when hunting.

This statement is only partially true. Most crossbows on the market are of at least 150lb draw strength. Most bows on the market can be set as high as 60-75lb draw. However, the power stroke (distance the string travels from rest to full draw) on a crossbow is usually little better than 14". On a bow, the power stroke can be as much as 31". It is during the power stroke that an arrow gains its velocity. It is pretty easy to see how these two factors balance each other out. What it really comes down to is how heavy is your arrow (bolt) and how fast is it traveling?

Currently, the fastest crossbows on the market throw a factory arrow at 340fps. This speed can be matched by a number of bows on the market currently. The only advantage there would be the difference in price (favoring the crossbow.) A bow fires a heavier arrow with better terminal ballistics out past 50 yards.

http://www.geocities.com/gunversation/bowsversuscrossbo... )%20Crossbows%20are%20too%20powerful%20and%20therefore%20an%20unfair%20advantage%20when%20hunting.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
17. "need to be shot"
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 06:20 PM by gorfle
Interesting to note: if no one on the premises had had a firearm, it appears that no more injuries than the one arrow injury would have occurred

Or...maybe she would have continued to plug arrows into people.

how diffficult is it for a bunch of men to get a bow and arrow away from a woman, or avoid getting hit by arrows?

Arrows from commercial compound bows can travel in excess of 180 MPH. They have enough power that quite frequently the arrow passes completely through game such as deer. I don't think I would want to play "dodge the arrow".

No one NEEDED to shoot her.

But the people who shot her had no way of knowing that. They did the right thing.

Edited to add: Once again Iverglas jumps to the defense of the criminal.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Depends on the bow.
A good compound bow is sufficient for taking Elk, and larger game. I can't tell what she had at the moment, but I am interested, as this seems like an extremely unusual incident.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
51. That's true in this case
Emphasis on this case. And not known until after the fact.


Although my boss bow-hunts deer, and he brings in his arrowheads to work to sharpen them on the grinders there. Frankly, I'm not sure which is worse, a shot from a broadhead hunting arrow or a pistol round!
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
26. do keep us updated
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 06:51 PM by iverglas
http://www.39online.com/pages/landing_news/?Bow-and-Arr...

Julie Parker called her father "the beast" according to Houston Police spokesman John Cannon.

... Parker's family says she "has psychological issues" according to Cannon.

http://www.39online.com/pages/landing_news/?Bow-and-Arr...
A woman who shot a man with a bow and arrow was attempting to kill her father.
Instead she shot one of his coworkers according to Houston Police.


Now ... just hypothetically speaking ... what if the father had violently and/or sexually abused the woman throughout her childhood?

Maybe gorfle would give us his assessment of her "moral worth" in that case.

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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. OK, not guilty by reason of insanity
And I'm glad that she wasn't killed. She needs to go away to a good mental hospital, with
carefully locked doors. The two CHL holders still did the right thing.

I can't speak for gorfle on this

Now, I've a question for you:

How were the guys that shot Julie Parker supposed to know her fake gun wasn't
a real one with the safety on, or a real one without a round in the chamber?


Sorry, they were under no moral or legal obligation to sit there and wait for her
to sort out her (apparent) gun-handling issues. Especially since she had just shot
one of their co-workers.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. I can't speak for Gorfle, but
I can easily answer the question.

> Now ... just hypothetically speaking ... what if the father had
> violently and/or sexually abused the woman throughout her childhood?

While it might make her actions understandable, it would not make her actions justifiable according to the law in most (all?) jurisdictions. Since she was not under any immediate threat of death etc., she cannot justify the use of lethal force against anyone.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. No doubt.
While it might make her actions understandable, it would not make her actions justifiable according to the law in most (all?) jurisdictions. Since she was not under any immediate threat of death etc., she cannot justify the use of lethal force against anyone.

I don't doubt you are right. I would think, though, if you had a 33-year-old woman who was molested all through her childhood but has not been for decades and is thus unable to prove the molestation, and one day she decided to kill the bastard for his years of torment, I could completely understand and sympathize with that. You're right though, no court would shield her. They might get "mitigating circumstances" or something if she could prove the abuse, but if she could prove the abuse she should have gone through due process. So I'm assuming in this hypothetical situation that there was no way to prove the years of childhood abuse. I could see myself killing someone like that, but not having gone through it, it's hard to say how I would actually respond.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Why don't you tell us if you would approve of her actions in your hypothetical case?
Edited on Wed Jan-21-09 10:42 PM by Fire_Medic_Dave
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-21-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
33. On your hypothetical question.
Now ... just hypothetically speaking ... what if the father had violently and/or sexually abused the woman throughout her childhood?

Maybe gorfle would give us his assessment of her "moral worth" in that case.


If she had just cause for killing her father, then more power to her. I would think that she could have done it without endangering other people and making them fear for their lives, and I certainly don't fault the people who defended themselves from her.

But right now her family is saying she has psychological issues. It's hard to pass judgment on the insane.
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
37. Interesting 1st-hand report of what happened....
at one of the gun forums....

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=8&f=8&t=341905&...

Check the posts from the guy who goes by the handle, CMOS beginning about half-way down the page. This could have turned out much worse....
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Tragic story...
CMOS's comment at the end sums it up, "Not your average day at the office."

Could have been much worse.
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S_B_Jackson Donating Member (564 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 05:39 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. His follow-up was even more to the point....
Edited on Thu Jan-22-09 05:46 AM by S_B_Jackson

Another example of why I ALWAYS carry. I have people ask me, "Why do you always carry a gun?"
I now have a first hand story to tell.


I firmly believe that if my boss and I we not armed that at least one more person would have been shot this day.

CMOS


A sentiment that I share, though I pray regularly that I never find myself in this position, ever....and it does make me rethink the idea of relying upon a .380 or smaller caliber firearm as an effective self-defense weapon.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Here's his first post
"Okay, from the top: In my office when I hear my boss SCREAMING something. I run out to the reception area (RA) and see him with a small 380 drawing a bead on some chick with a COMPOUND BOW - and I see my friend standing with a fucking arrow IN HIS CHEST. Boss has the gal covered so I drag my friend into his office to get him out of the line of fire should she draw again.

I RUN out of his office, thru a side exit and retrieve my HK from my vehicle. Woman now in conference room (CR) in the front of the building. I position myself outside in the parking lot on a vehicle to watch her hunkered down in the CR. I can see her clearly, boss now cannot see her as there is a wall blocking his view.

My intent is to keep he in that CR so she doesn't get to anyone else.

A few minutes go by and she sees my employees exiting the building through an alternate exit going across the parking lot. She stands up and points a SA pistol at them (first time I saw a pistol) so I double tap 2 rounds right over her head to drop her down again in the corner of the CR. She drops.

Several minutes later she hears something in the RA, where boss is with his 380, and she stands up again and points the gun at the wall as if she's about to shoot through the wall (potentially at boss or our man down and 2 employees that are tending to him.

I shoot again a gnats ass over her head and she drops again. Now before you guys hammer me for not tapping her CM (which I could have as I shoot regularly), I learned when I was dragging my friend away that this woman is the daughter of one of our engineers. She has severe mental issues. My goal again was to keep her in that CR until HPD arrived.

That didn't happen.

A few minutes later she charges out of the CR and my boss unloads his 380 on her (6 rounds). I flank the vehicle I'm behind and take bead to the front door. I see her down on the floor, some blood under her. I enter with my weapon covering her every second and verify that the pistol had been dropped and was a good 15 feet from her.

I try to apply compresses to her wounds (one knee and one upper chest near shoulder). She's freaking out screaming that I work for the devil and I'm a coward for not killing her. I back off and then saw something that I didn't fucking expect.

She got up, grabbed her bow and went back into the CR! Remember that boss is out of ammo as his 380 is a little bitty bug. I retreat to the entryway of my friend's office where he is down, arrow in chest, (with 2 other employees), knelt, and drew a defensive hard sight bead on that CR door with my finger on the trigger.

I told her that if she came out of that room I would shoot her before she got a single step. Must have taken HPD 25 minutes to arrive and enter but they finally entered and shot her several times (not sure how many actual hits).

Found out that friend is going to be okay as the arrow went all the way across his chest but was not deep with respect to the front of his body. Not sure if the arrow clipped lungs or not. Will see him tomorrow.

Shit.

Not your average day at the office.

CMOS <- drinking as I type..... "


Bold emphasis mine. Stunning professionalism. You could not expect better from a police officer.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Another post from the witness
"Odd but not once during that whole scenario did I ever NOT know what to do. I train regularly in shooting and tactics so I know what I had to do, and I thank God for that strength.

THANK YOU - all of you guys here offering support.

Another example of why I ALWAYS carry. I have people ask me, "Why do you always carry a gun?"

I know have a first hand story to tell.

I firmly believe that if my boss and I we not armed that at least one more person would have been shot this day.

CMOS"


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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. As much as I hate to say it...
Edited on Thu Jan-22-09 09:19 AM by jeepnstein
he should have shot her when he had a chance. I know it's hard, really hard, for most humans to kill another human but he kind of messed up on that one. Even in the Things could have gotten out of control very quickly and it could have cost more than one life. An active shooter in the building would have slowed the access to the innocent victim to EMS. The thing you do with shooters like this is end it very quickly.

He did as well as someone could under the circumstances. According to my training he made an error. That "error" resulted in him not having to take a life and in that 20/20 hindsight he made the right call. Not having to take a life is always a good thing.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. I agree, but...
I agree, but I won't second guess the guy.

I mean really. We all know what you are supposed to do when presented with an armed threat. But in reality, what would you do if the target was a friend or co-worker's daughter? The only people who can say what they would do under fire are those who have done it. I hope I could respond as well.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #45
46. I've walked in his shoes...
Yes, I made a similar mistake and it worked out OK. If things hadn't worked out so well I would have been carved up like a Thanksgiving Turkey.

If you live, you learn. If you don't, then it doesn't matter so much.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-22-09 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
58. Whether you knew the target or not, most people are going to hesitate.
The natural impulse is to give the other person the maximum possible chance to stand down before you take action.
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