Remind me again which shot is best size for personal protection? nm

[rhett o rick]

[kirby]

1. Between your own eyes and you can never be paranoid again n/t

[tburnsten]

9. Why don't you demonstrate...

[kirby]

11. I only perform this trick, once per week, sorry. n/t

[rhett o rick]

10. Paranoia is so under rated. And thanks for the swell comment. nm

[tburnsten]

2. 00 Buck

Or #1 Buck, or 0 Buck, or 000 Buck. No birdshot at all, it may strip away some flesh but it would be a very lucky shot to get deep enough to stop an opponent. So birdshot basically relies on the psychological effect of being shot to stop an opponent, while buckshot, made for animals roughly human sized, will reliably reach the parts that actually make a person stop doing whatever it is that caused you to shoot them in the first place.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. Or slugs.

At close range, you're probably not significantly more likely to miss with a slug than with buck, because you're not gonna get that much spread with the buck. I bring this up mostly because it's usually easier to get slugs than buck. But also, slugs carry further; at 50 yards, the slug is much more effective than 00 buck.

[Schema Thing]

3. Double ot 7

That's right, keep Daniel Craig around.

[tularetom]

5. 12 gauge rifled slug

[elifino]

6. 000 Mag

[AtheistCrusader]

7. Odd question

for the gun section of a political forum. Nor is there a single correct answer to this question.

[rhett o rick]

8. Where would you suggest I ask the question? And of course there are always multiple answers

to all questions.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. I would suggest

these kinds of questions be asked in non-political forums. Maybe a self-defense focused forum. This seems to be a good place to discuss perhaps the legality of firing in self defense, but I don't understand any political relevance to the shot load.

As for numerous possible answers, it would help if you identified the chamber size, tube storage amount, type of shotgun, what kind of home you live in, what you percieve a threat to be, etc.

[rhett o rick]

20. Go look for "a self-defense focused forum"??? You are not serious? Hey, if you don't want to

participate in this thread then feel free to step out. "self-defense focused forum". LOL. Oh yeah, what brand of shot gun?? I think it is a j.c. Higgins. does that help?

Peace

[jeepnstein]

26. J.C. Higgins?

I call mine a J. Edgar Hoover. It's an ancient single shot with a slightly shortened barrel that is still within the legal limits. My load of choice is plain old 00 buck, or 4, or whatever is handy at the time. They're great shotguns for most uses. Beats the heck out of buying an uber tactical Benelli just to shoot an occasional snake. Here's the test I always use; pick the largest room in you house and then shoot a watermelon at that distance. Make a note of what happens. Your choice of shot isn't really going to matter much indoors no matter what the gun magazines like to say.

My duty shotgun is an 870. The ammo for it is dictated by policy.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. Well, not really.

Chamber length, gauge, and model would be more useful. If that's a bolt-action J.C. shotgun, please be aware of this recall: http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/01-04-2006/0004242749&EDATE=

For instance, if it's a .410 someone suggesting 4-ought buck isn't going to work because aside from one rather gimmick-y Russian manufacturer I found, I don't think anyone makes it. If the chamber length is 2 3/4, magnum loads in 3" or 3.5" obviously aren't going to work. This information is usually stamped somewhere around the barrel or chamber.


As for the type of question in this forum... Welp. I could see many observers translate your question directly into 'how might I best kill humans'. I believe you already got some negative reactions something along those lines. Worse, had an experience on another forum where a guy was asking questions like this, and took the advice, and went out and shot a bunch of people. So, that sucked big time. And again, there's really no 'correct' answer to your question.

Edit: I guess I feel sorta like an ass now that I saw your emergency lighting question..

[krispos42]

22. Actually, Skinner changed the rules...

...after a debate about this very topic last year.

Skinner ADMIN (1000+ posts) Wed Dec-15-04 01:30 PM
Original message
Where to post various gun-related topics
Edited on Tue Nov-06-07 11:57 AM by Skinner
Since we re-organized our forums, DU now has two forums for discussions relating to Guns and 2nd Amendment issues. Each of those forums has a specific purpose. Help us keep posts on-topic in each of those forums.

Discussion of gun-related public policy issues or the use of firearms for self-defense belong in the Guns Forum.

Personal-interest discussion about guns and weaponry should be posted in the Outdoor Life Group. By "personal interest" I mean, any discussion that is unrelated to public policy, such as: Posting pictures of guns or discussing the leisure activities of hunting or shooting.

Currently, the outdoor life group hosts discussions related to a number of outdoor activities, including hunting, fishing, skiing, hiking, climbing, and camping. Members are reminded to be respectful of individuals that engage in any of these activities.

DU moderators have the authority to move threads which are placed in the wrong forum or group.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x95935

boldface mine

[krispos42]

12. #1 buck

.30" diameter, frontal area of .0707 in² per pellet.


You get more total surface area (and thus more wound area) while still having enough penetrating power to go completely through a person and their clothing, making both exit and entry wounds.

For example, Winchester Ammuntion makes a 2¾" shotshell with 12 00-buck pellets or 16 #1-buck pellets.

Total frontal area of the 00-buck is 1.026 in² and of the #1 buck is 1.131 in², a 16% increase.


Similarly, a 3-in shell contains 15 00-buck or 24 #1 buck, for total frontal areas of 1.283 in² versus 1.697 in². That's a 32% increase.

[Testament]

35. #1 2 3/4" magnum shells for me

20 pellets, <10" spread at home distances. KOs on the side saddle.

[jeepnstein]

13. Federal 00 "tactical"

This is just a great load. It is the stuff with the blue hulls. I switched to it this year and I must say the reduced recoil is worth it. I can get a follow-up shot much quicker.

Any shotgun load of 00 or 4 buck will do the job. 00 is the easiest to find as it seems 4 is falling out of favor for some reason that escapes me.

You should have buckshot and slugs on hand for your shotgun but I'd default to buckshot for most uses.

[tburnsten]

15. I just stuck a sleeve on the stock of mine

And it holds five Federal Tactical Hydra-Shock 1 oz slugs, they are full power, fairly heavy recoiling but I never expect to resort to them. If I do it will be because my oven has been press-ganged into service as home-invader body armor, and the slug will pass through that far better than the 00 buck I have in the tube. For the 00 I have Winchester Ranger reduced recoil, with the decelerator pad it doesn't recoil much and it is still perfectly adequate for predator defense.

[ManiacJoe]

17. Need to be careful with the reduced recoil loads.

If you have a semi-auto shotgun, you need to do some testing because many of the reduced recoil loads do not generate enough recoil to properly cycle the actions. However, pump action guns are all good since the shooter does the cycling not the recoil.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Also, test if they are 'shorty' rounds.

Some shotguns will not properly feed the 1" Aquila rounds. I have a mossberg they either jam, or fall out the bottom in.

Test test, and test some more if you are going to bet your life on it.

[aikoaiko]

16. 00 is the middle of the road choice

Where the biggest would be a slug (about the size of the penny) and the smallest being No. 4 Buckshot.



I don't think you can go wrong with anything from a slug to No. 4.

I have 00 in my home-defense Mossberg.

[Hangingon]

18. I use 000 because it is the easiest to find.

[rhett o rick]

21. for 16 ga and 20 ga I have been having a hard time finding anything but 6 or 8. nm

[krispos42]

23. You might have to order some

The Sportsman's Guide sells ammo through the mail if it's allowed in your state/county/city.

Well, not the US Mail, but they deliver it.

Winchester makes #3 buck and sabot slugs for the 20-ga and rifled slugs for the 16-ga.


The sabot slugs would not be very accurate unless you had a rifled barrel or rifled choke tube in your shotgun, but at typical self-defense ranges I doubt it would matter. In fact, a tumbling slug would probably hurt a LOT worse than one flying true... Ouch. Ouch. Ouch.


Either of those loads would... discourage an attcker rather quickly if you do your part.

[tburnsten]

25. CHeck this out then

www.ammunitiontogo.com, they are excellent, they process and ship orders very quickly, their site has never been out of date compared to their inventory for me, and most importantly, they have the best prices on many things I order and selection that beats the tar out of sites like cheaperthandirt. For instance, in pistols I like Federal HST, which is part of their Tactical line and so can be a little tricky to find at times, but they always have it. And their shotgun shells often come in 25 round boxes for $15-16, even things like Winchester Ranger and Federal Hydra-Shock rifled slugs.

[Hangingon]

31. I have some 20 ga. 000

You are right that 16 ga. is hard to find. A friend told me to look at hy-vel.com for exotic shotgun ammo. They are expensive but you can get buck and ball.

[benEzra]

19. Probably anything between 000 buckshot and #4 buckshot, with 00 or #1 preferred.

I would avoid slugs unless you live in a VERY rural area and have no close neighbors, as a 12-gauge slug penetrates like a .45-70, and shoots right through some things that will stop even a .308 FMJ.

I don't personally own a shotgun, but if I did, I'd probably load it with #1 or 00 buckshot. In an apartment or thin-walled house, I might go with #4.


FWIW, here's an interesting test from the Box O'Truth, involving a piece of "bulletproof" acrylic like you'd find in an armored window:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm

Stopped a .223 caliber bullet fired from an AR-15 at point-blank range:




Stopped a point-blank .308 (7.62x51mm), common deer caliber:




Couldn't stop a 12-gauge slug:




Downside of that is, of course, that you don't want rounds exiting your exterior walls if you have close neighbors. Which is why I'd save slugs for rural use, unless you live in a heavily built masonry house.

[krispos42]

24. A very informative website

Especially the parts about testing bullets in simulated walls

:thumbsup:

[MicaelS]

27. Number 1 Buckshot

Very good website: http://www.firearmstactical.com/

Specific information about shotguns http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

See the chart on the link: With a standard #1 load of 16 pellets you are putting 16 x 40 = 640 grains on target as opposed to 9 x 53.8 = 484.2 grains of 00 buck. That's a 1/3 increase in mass.

12 Gauge Shotshell Ammunition
For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

[57_TomCat]

30. In my opinion this is another case of...

wishfull thinking coupled with reason and conjecture to arrive at a answer that makes sense but is not definitive.

In my case 00 buckshot resides in my Remington 870 behind the door. I prefer the Remington low recoil 00 buck with 8 pellets in the load. Of course I would be quite happy with most any buckshot load I could get since they all are similar in most respects.

I also have a few slugs for duty, practice and competition. They are not loaded in the gun but kept in the ready bag for duty use if necessary. They will give me a very accurate option for the shotgun if distance should be beyond 20 yards.

[isaacsgs]

32. Best Protection Load

I use a .45 S&W handgun with hollowpoint ammo. Given how nervous you'll be trying to defend yourself and, thus, more likely to miss you'll need every hit to count and those .45 hollowpoints will physically stop some assailants.

[tburnsten]

34. If the specific bullet feeds in your gun

then it would be irresponsible to use FMJ ammo. Pistol FMJ has a strong tendency to penetrate 24-28 inches, much deeper than a human body, and so poses a danger to anyone beyond your ethical, intended target. Plus the rounds that miss completely will have an easier time getting through building materials, again endangering people who are in no way involved.

[iiibbb]

33. Whatever you feel comfortable with and can reliably aim.

Shotguns are good 12, 20 gauge.

.38 revolver or larger

9mm pistol or larger

Rifles are least desirable in my opinion.

[krispos42]

36. Winchester also makes buckshot loads for the .410

A 3-pellet 000-buck 2¾" and 5-pellet 00-buck 3".

.410 shells will also fit nicely in one of those slip-on elastic buttstock shell holders that are made for 9 rifle rounds.

And a short-barreled .410 double is light and fast for close-quarters work.

[ArmedAmerican]

37. smaller pellets

Smaller pellets won't penetrate as deep as buckshot, so it depends on whether you want to actually kill someone or just make them stop whatever they're doing and go away. Smaller pellets can still obviously kill at close range so don't kid yourself, but at a distance they'll lose velocity and spread out. If you wanted undeniably lethal force you'd be using a rifle, so since you have a shotgun it sounds like you want something less than that. BB shot's probably good.

[tburnsten]

39. All firearms are lethal

Some are just faster than others. And a load of small shot would seem to create plenty of wounds for lots of blood loss, which is the second fastest of the two ways a firearm can kill a human. The first way is a central nervous system hit. There is no such thing as "shooting to wound", there was a fellow not too long ago who shot an assailant twice in the legs, probably hoping to avoid killing him, and the assailant bled to death either on his way to the hospital or shortly after arrival there. The only difference between an ineffective shot to the extremities or a shot with an ineffective load, like birdshot, is that your assailant may not be physically incapable of continuing their attack on you as quickly with the poor shot or poor weapon choice. In the case of the man shot in the legs, he had been screaming death threats and was claiming to be reaching for a gun and was rushing the man who he forced to shoot him, and if he had a knife or something in his hands when he was shot he would have been quite capable of slicing the life right out of the shooter before he lost enough blood to stop being a threat.

People can be remarkably hard to kill, and often they can continue whatever hostilities caused them to be shot in the first place for a matter of minutes after sustaining a fatal wound. Read up on the FBI involved incident with Platt and Matix that caused them to move from the 9mm with 115 grain Silvertips to the 10mm, one of the agents in that disastrous firefight placed a perfectly aimed shot into one of the suspects hearts, but the bullet had to go through an arm first and so didn't penetrate deep enough to go through the heart. That was in the opening shots of the fight, and the suspect who was hit killed a couple of agents despite the fact that the wound made him essentially a dead man.

[WindRiverMan]

38. #4 Buck

Standard 3-inch shell is going to have between 32 and 38 pellets compared to about 12 or 14 with OO Buck.