Guilt On Their Hands: Tiny 'Tags' Could Help To Solve And Deter Gun Crime

[jody]

Guilt On Their Hands: Tiny 'Tags' Could Help To Solve And Deter Gun Crime

The tiny tags – just 30 microns* in diameter and invisible to the naked eye – are designed to be coated onto gun cartridges. They then attach themselves to the hands or gloves of anyone handling the cartridge and are very difficult to wash off completely.

Crucially, some of these ‘nanotags’ also remain on the cartridge even after it has been fired. This should make it possible to establish a robust forensic link between a cartridge fired during a crime and whoever handled it.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

A key benefit is also the affordability – a cost-effective way of reliably capturing sufficient DNA from a gun cartridge has never been available before. The technology has been designed to avoid damage to the DNA captured which is caused (i) by temperatures generated as the gun is fired, when heat is rapidly transferred from the burning propellant into the cartridge case and (ii) when copper is extracted from the cartridge case by lactic acid in sweat.

The nanotag and DNA capture technologies could potentially be available for use within as little as 12 months. There may also be scope to apply them in other fields, such as knife crime, in future.

[Mojorabbit]

1. Won't work

I can think of ten ways around it just now in a few minutes.

[Realityhack]

23. Yep... but...

the idiots who actually commit most gun crime probably don't think as well as you do.

Not defending the idea though.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

2. If they start this..tags... I see home-made gun making getting more popular.

[baldguy]

3. Making gunpowder is 1000-yr old chemistry.

Any 15-yr old with a little curiosity & the basic ingredients can produce it.

[pepperbear]

4. what's to stop someone from using the gun in a crime while wearing gloves,

then, after disposing of the gloves (burning them would definitely destroy the evidence), give the gun to some unwitting person to touch?

[tburnsten]

5. Seems like an expensive idea

on other people's dime, with little to no realistic chance of ever being of any use to anyone. Sounds like a huge, costly, hassle-full experiment with a big return for whoever the creator of the "tags" happens to be. Like that asshat championing "microstamping" who happens to be the sole patent holder, and only person who ever came up with any evidence that his idea was any good.

[virginia mountainman]

6. O HELL NO!!

Anything "extra" added to propellant powder, is a recipe for desaster.... A REAL "Scientist" would know this.

:rant:

I, as a reloader, take careful steps, and precautions to insure the purity of my propellants.

Tagants, are an inpurity....How in the hell can you develop a safe, consistent, full power load, when the number of tagants, will not to the same, from round to round?? Short answer, YOU CAN'T, it would be impossible.

God Damned dumbasses, don't have the foggiest idea about the proper procedures is for loading safe, consistent, and reliable, ammunition. And yet they are fucking out here writing articles and pushing, to take something safe when done properly and with care, and turn it into something dangerous, no matter how careful you are.

Fucking dumbasses.... I bet those "Scientists" cannot find their own asses in a darkened room with both hands.

[Realityhack]

22. I don't think it is IN the propelent, but rather on the cartrage.

not supporting the idea mind you.

[AtheistCrusader]

7. So if they come off so easily

to stick to hands, clothes, etc, how long until this becomes like Cash where somewhere between 3 and 4 out of five bills will test positive for contamination by cocaine?

[jody]

8. Classic naiveté -- If you commit crimes by our rules, you lose so please obey our rules. n/t

[gorfle]

9. Don't you people READ?

This has nothing to do with gunpowder, if you read the article.

From the article:

"The tiny tags – just 30 microns* in diameter and invisible to the naked eye – are designed to be coated onto gun cartridges."

They have come up with nano-particles that can be coated onto, presumably the outside of, finished bullet cartridges.

So long as this doesn't appreciably affect the price of ammunition, who cares?

[MicaelS]

11. OK, let's see....

I ASSume they mean factory ammo. That means that there will be a new black market for handloads.

If they convince Speer, et al to coat just the bullets they sell, then there will be a resurgence of homemade alloy bullets.

If they convince ALL empty brass manufacturers to coat THEIR product, then we'll see what happens after 24-48 hours in a case tumbler.

If they add it to powder, then the pollen could be destroyed during firing.

If they coat primers, then only that would have a hard time being beat.

In any case, pun intended, handloading is going to begin growing by leaps and bounds.

[gorfle]

12. Sigh...

I ASSume they mean factory ammo. That means that there will be a new black market for handloads.

Why? I'll keep buying cheap-o Winchester White-box at Walmart.

If they convince Speer, et al to coat just the bullets they sell, then there will be a resurgence of homemade alloy bullets.

The article, again, referred to coating cartridges.

If they convince ALL empty brass manufacturers to coat THEIR product, then we'll see what happens after 24-48 hours in a case tumbler.

The article, again, referred to coating cartridges.

f they add it to powder, then the pollen could be destroyed during firing.

The article, again, referred to coating cartridges.

If they coat primers, then only that would have a hard time being beat.

The article, again, referred to coating cartridges.

In any case, pun intended, handloading is going to begin growing by leaps and bounds.

Why? Why would anyone care, assuming it did not appreciably affect the cost of ammunition?

[virginia mountainman]

15. Tagents in powder where all the rage a few years ago...

That is where the article is heading..

And besides, you want a clerical nightmare?? Okay, give every box of ammunition its own serial number, every shell casing, every bullet.....and keep track of it all...from manufacturing, wholesaling, all the way down to the end user....

And remember, to account for folks that keep ammunition for decades, all the numbers must be different... Heck, I am still shooting WWII surplus ammunition.

And just think, how easy it would suddenly become to blackmail someone with some stolen ammunition, or to go buy some ammo with a false id.

Dumbasses....they are all DUMBASSES

[gorfle]

16. I agree.

Yes, I remember the whole tagent debacle.

Yes, I agree there are clerical nightmares with what is proposed, which is why I stipulated that wouldn't care so long as there was no appreciable impact on the price of ammunition.

There are significant technical hurdles to being able to track ammunition from end-to-end. But this may not be necessary. It may be that they simply vary the marker a bit every day or so in some unique way. This way when they find the marker at a crime scene if they find the same marker inside a gun or on the hands of a suspect there is some reason to suspect that the bullet came from the gun and the suspect. It's not a bullet-proof link but unless you track every bullet from end-to-end nothing will be.

The bottom line is I don't really care if someone sprinkles some magic fairy dust on my ammo as long as it doesn't affect its performance or price.

I also, as I've said before, don't approve of banning any ammo not so marked, such as surplus ammo.

[virginia mountainman]

19. I am still suspect...But willing to listen..

I just don't see how the cost, of this sort of thing, including manufacturing, record keeping, and implementation. Would be useful.

ESPECIALLY in light of the costs associated with it.

And you must admit, that the "loophole" bullshit will start up anew, because a significant number of shooters, load their own ammunition, and cast their own bullets.

Than all that shit will start again, when Brady/VPC/MMM will be releasing press releases underscoring "The dangers of homemade death dealers" and Caroline McCarthy will be trotted out to talk about how ONLY criminals would need "to make" their own bullets.

We both know that their was NO loophole in the AW Ban, all laws where complied with... It was not our fault, that they banned bayonet lugs, and flash suppressors.

And their is NO, "gun show loophole" because simply, their is no such thing as an "unlicensed gun dealer"

We would be opening ourselves up to a new round of LOOPHOLE LOOPHOLE LOOPHOLE!

And then the dumbasses would be after our reloading gear.....

[Boomer 50]

13. Even more dangerous than in smokeless powder.

Ever wonder how ballistics works? Every chamber and every land and groove of every barrel is different from all others. That includes what is called final production diameter. Imperfections in the surface of the chamber and bore create marks on the bullet and cartridge. Now, we get technical...

The list specs for a cartridge go out about 3 decimal points. To give you an idea, the chamber spec on a .45 acp is 0.458. Here is where we get to the danger part. These numbers give us the basis for the pressure curve when making a barrel. Oversize the chamber and the pressure expands the cartridge and may cause splits in the case. This is bad. What is worse is when you undersize the chamber. Now, by adding 30 microns of surface to each side, you are essentially adding 60+ microns to the case diameter. Now, in production of barrels, natural vibration in the machines make it difficult to accurately chamber a barrel or bore a barrel to more than 4 decimal places. So, you may get .45788 or .45801 or .45799...

Adding 60 microns of surface area means that you increase the pressure of the round when fired. On a cartridge such as a .45 acp, it may be acceptable. HOWEVER, if you do this to a cartridge like a .338 Lapua which can have a peak pressure anywhere from 65,000 PSI to over 90,000 PSI, it becomes freaking dangerous. 60 microns of surface area theoretically could take a 65,000 PSI cartridge and run the pressure up to 100,000 PSI. It's similar to what happens when a bullet is seated one or two thousandths of an inch deeper than normal. The pressure increases. Now, combine this with having these little tags on the bullet and the increase in resistance in the bore... well, we have a problem that will result the manufacturer of these tags getting sued into the stone age when someone blows up a gun.

[gorfle]

17. Really?

You strike me as being more knowledgeable about this than I am, but I find it hard to believe that a little microscopic dust on the outside of a cartridge will be enough to cause a firearm to explode. 60 microns equals .002". I would think this would be within manufacturing tolerances.

[Boomer 50]

21. It's what I do for a living....

And yes, 2 thousandths is a huge deal.

The numbers we work with are very important. .002 is enough to throw headspace off enough to make a gun dangerous. Put that on the dimensions around the side of the case and specifically the diameter of the bullet itself and you get a situation of much higher pressure. Hell, half a thousandth is enough to fuck you up if the dimension is off in the right spot.

Basically here is what you have to look at. You have X amount of pressure to push the bullet from the case. The bullet then contacts the lands and grooves of the barrel requiring Y amount of force to allow the bullet to engage the rifling and continue down the bore. The contact between the bullet and bore is exact. On a .308 rifle, the lands are .299-.300 and the grooves are broached/buttoned/cut to .308 inch. The bullet is .308 diameter. Now, the bullet jacket is made of copper or copper alloy. It has a certain amount of resistance to cutting or shaping that the Y amount of force overcomes. Now, on that .308 bullet, let's expand the diameter to .310 you now have a situation where Y amount of force cannot push the bullet forward into the bore. The bullet hesitates for 1/2 to 1 microsecond as the force behind the bullet builds as the powder burns to give it the push it needs to engage the rifling. During this microsecond of pause, the pressure in the case has about doubled. On a .308 caliber rifle, the normal Y pressure is about 56,000 PSI. Double that and you have a pressure load in the chamber area of about 112,000 PSI. This often results in a catastrophic failure of the firearm. Also known as a kaboom. Shooter is often injured or even killed in such a situation.

The first time that a gun fails using ammunition laced with these tags, that company is going to get their asses sued off. It won't be hard to scientifically determine if a pressure spike was the cause or not and if so, the law suits will fly. People like me will be called in on these cases to explain exactly what I've explained above and we will not hold back.

You have a lot of people with good intentions messing in a field that they have no understanding of. Leave it to the people that know what they are doing. I would be estatic if we could require a techincal knowledge test to every elected official that wants to introduce ANY gun control as most of the time, they don't have a freaking clue about how a gun works or the pressures involved. I think these politicians should be held accountable for passing these stupid laws. They are not qualified and should not be allowed to touch the technical aspects of firearms AT ALL unless and until they pass a check and have training.

[gorfle]

24. Standard tolerance?

What is the standard tolerance on the case diameter of common cartridges?

[Boomer 50]

29. It varies....

It's safer to have extra room, and more reliable, than to have too little space. Military chambers on rifles are generously proportioned to allow for more reliable feeding and operation. The down side is that this makes the brass deform to a greater degree.

On most handguns and almost all precision rifles, you will normally see about .002 to .003 oversize in the chamber. Some handguns may have a larger diameter chamber but they are limited by the fact that the case is straight and headspaces on the case mouth. This limits the "slop" a great deal.

On the tolorance for a bullet to bore fit, it's exact. If it weren't, you'd get blowby which would damage the barrel.

[gorfle]

32. You're talking about the chamber.

What's the standard tolerance on the cartridges themselves?

[Boomer 50]

34. Chamber and cartridge....

It works hand in hand.

But, if you are asking about tolorances in brass manufacturing, it's kinda complicated. The cartridge case is usually made of brass though steel is sometimes used. The one dimension that is absolute is the outside profile of the case. It may be slightly smaller but cannot be larger than a given set of numbers. If the case is out of spec giving too much room in the chamber, you end up with case failure. All commercially manufactured ammunition and arms are designed to meet specifications put forth by SAAMI, the Small Arms and Ammunition Manufacturing Institute. If a gun or ammunition doesn't meet the standards, it must have warnings stating the issue and ammunition if loaded to higher pressures, must be labeled as such with appropriate warnings. All ammunition manufactured today professionally are made to within .0005 of published dimensional data. Handloading is a whole different story however.

Cases may have thicker or thinner walls. They may be annealed or not. The alloy brass may be stronger or weaker. The thicker the walls are, the less case capacity you have which translates into higher pressures.

It's not a simple answer, I can't say "Oh, they have .005 of tolorance on the dimensions". The science behind firearms technology is very, very advanced and has been for well over a century. It is one of the most accurately documented yet, one of the least understood by the general public.

I do wish I could give you a clearer answer but it would take me a week to post the comprehensive science behind making a gun fire safely.

If you do want to see some of the results of over pressure failures, my favorite example is here: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html

You can google other phrases such as M14 failure, M14 kb, M16 kb, etc. to see more guns that have failed.

[gorfle]

36. Yes.

Look, I'm a mechanical engineer, and I've been a shooter for 30 years, so I can appreciate the details you are talking about, and I believe you.

I'm just having a hard time believing that ammunition is that critically toleranced, and that .002 worth of dust can cause a kaboom. I can't tell you the number of times I've dropped a cartridge on the ground and picked it up, wiped it on my jeans, and ran it right into a magazine and fired it. It sounds like you are saying that ammunition is manufactured to within half-a-thousandth of an inch (+/- .0005). This is an extremely tight tolerance. I went to the SAAMI web site but, as expected, you have to pay to access the standards.

I have no doubts that firearms are manufactured to tight tolerances. I'm just astonished that ammunition is manufactured to such tight tolerances, and I'm equally astonished that they can malfunction catastrophically as a result of .002 worth of dust or fouling. I find this very hard to believe, especially for military weapons.

[Boomer 50]

38. Look into reloading.

You'll find a great deal of information on cartridge specs there including tolorances. Ammunition must be manufactured to exacting tolorances for several reasons including what we've discussed so far. Another is that chamber size may vary and the ammunition must be able to properly chamber in a minimally sized chamber for that caliber.

Military weapons use oversized chambers and military ammunition uses significantly thicker cases. This compensates for the variable. This is also why military ammunition has a much higher rate of split cases and seperated cases. Also, bear in mind that in the civilian world, most chambers are much more exacting than military chambers. This is for the accuracy demanded by the shooting population. This is why you never put a 5.56mm cartridge in a .223 chamber but the reverse is safe. The pressures, tolorances and case thickness are very critical. Interestingly enough, the exact opposite is true regarding 7.62 x 51 vs. .308.

The military won't be using ammunition with taggants just like the military told the civilian government to take a hike when the gun grabbers wanted to date stamp links for belt fed machine guns. It's a national defense situation. Special operations would be at risk and it would harm our nations security.

It may sound unrealistic but you need to understand that we are dealing with intense pressures inside of the firearm. You are dealing with pressure curves that last microseconds and can be 55,000 PSI or higher. Dimensions of a thousandth of an inch can be absolutely critical.

[Realityhack]

25. interesting...

but the article only talked about lacing the cartridges, I assumed they meant only the casing. Would additional thickness in the casing be as much of a problem?

[tburnsten]

27. Cartridge is the final loaded object

bullet, brass, primer, and powder.

I'm not at his level, but it sounds like he was talking about the problems of adding coatings to both the case and the projectile.

[Realityhack]

28. ok. I see.

thanks for the info. It seems to me like this would only be added to the brass to avoid such problems and because that is where it would be most useful.

[Boomer 50]

31. It's a good thought but won't avoid problems.

Please go to this page...

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

Now, note the image of the .223 cartridge on the right. The dimensions are quite exacting. You can see where the bullet sits in the top of the case, follow the case down and you see what we call the shoulder where it expands outward to the larger body diameter. On what is known as a necked down case, such as this, the shoulder is where the cartridge headspace is measured. In laymans terms, headspace is the depth of the chamber from the bolt face to the preeminent feature on the cartridge that determines the amount of expansion allowable during firing.

The numbers I know off the top of my head are for the .308 so I'll use those. Minimum headspace or chamber depth is 1.630 inch. Ideally the chamber is oversized to 1.632 to allow for expansion and contraction of the brass. If you take headspace to 1.636, you are on the edge where you may have ruptured cases (very bad ju ju). If you use minimum headspace in the chamber or size the brass wrong, or add a component to the brass changing the dimensions, you end up with something called compression fracturing of the brass. After a couple of loadings, the brass will fail. Sometimes, depending on the quality of brass to begin with, it may fail on the first firing.

If less than the minimum headspace is used, say 1.629 for example, the cartridge will not chamber properly rendering the firearm useless or some enterprising individual may try to force the bolt to close and pre-compressing the cartridge. Now you have another pressure spike situation resulting in catastrophic failure and damage to the weapon and injury to the shooter.

[Realityhack]

37. Thank you for the link and information.

I must admit I have never really studied firearms. I found the link and your information to be quite interesting and informative.

[Boomer 50]

39. You're welcome

Firearms are quite a fascinating subject matter. There is no single mechanical application with so many variations as the field of firearms. The innovations and the designs that have been created are an expression of how ingenius the human mind can be.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

45. You're such a nice guy.

[jody]

26. Boomer 50, you know it's not fair to use facts against fiction when debating gun-control.

You've earned the Heracles Fifth Labour Badge!

[Boomer 50]

30. I'll take that badge with gratitude

Forgive the wording here, but I have to try to dumb down my explanations a bit. I don't mean that in an insulting way, just that most people wouldn't begin to understand the terminology we use in the industry nor do they understand just how much of a balancing act is really being performed with firearms. I guess a better way would be to say I'm trying to use layman's terms where there really aren't any.

[Tejas]

40. but, but

I saw Horatio on CSI and he says different. That, and the CSI instant-replay camera.....


is Idol on?

}(













(on a serious note, millions of thanks for your firearms knowledge and input!)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. What if I go shooting and someone picks up my empty brass reloads it and commits a crime.

I guess if I don't have an alibi I'm screwed.

David

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. True. Also, these taggants can only be circumstantial at best

It's not like they're going to make a taggant just for you and only you.

[ManiacJoe]

44. Same taggants for the whole batch.

For whatever the manufacturer sets as the batch size, usually measured in units of 1000-round cases.

[applegrove]

10. Excellent use of nanotechnology.

[gorfle]

18. More interesting than the tags

The most interesting part of the article was not the external tagents, but the new surface treatment that would allow the DNA of people who handled the cartridges to stick to the case. Now the tagent is likely the DNA of the shooter.

The careful criminal could probably clean his cartridges and exercise enough care during use to prevent his DNA from being on the cartridges, but my guess is your average gang-banger won't think of it.

[Indy Lurker]

14. not a bad idea in theory

Much better than microstamping.

But I can't conceive of how the manufacturing or traceability would work.


To be useful, I think you would want to use different tags on each box of ammo that is sold, or else one ID number could point to several people.

The only application I see possible for high speed production would be a ink type roller.

Where do you store 10 million rollers with nano tags?


How do you trace each box of ammo sold?

with 10 billion bullets sold per year, your looking at 200,000,000 boxes of ammo.

Who is going to collect and collate all this data?


The DNA trapping surface on the other hand sounds like a good idea, at least to catch the dumb criminals.

[spin]

20. I assume that these tags would be attached to both....

the projectile and the cartridge case. Otherwise a revolver would cripple the value of the new technology as the fired case is not ejected.

I wonder if the tags on the bullet would survive the trip down the barrel and the impact on the target.

[radioburning]

35. I see a lot of potential for abuse here, but it's better than micro-stamping. n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Maybe they should coat felons in this stuff when they are released from prison.

That would leave these little tags everywhere and be easy to find if they committed another crime.

David

[tburnsten]

42. That is a WAY better idea!