Legal questions

[madmusic]

Do any gun registrations or licenses require updated addresses of the owners? I'm looking for search terms to be able to look up case law on gun registration. In particular, a) if someone registers a gun and then moves to a new state, is it necessary to register it at the new address? If so, what federal statutes would cover that? b) Same question, but for someone who has a license to own machine guns or other more restricted guns, like a collector of curios and relics. If the owners moves, is it necessary to register the collection at the new state's address? In either case, what happens if the gun owner fails to do so for any reason?

Any suggested search terms welcome.

Thanks.

[virginia mountainman]

1. Need more information...

What State?? what KIND of guns???

[rwheeler31]

2. Dam good question.

[Tejas]

3. The NFA section at

subguns.com has more info than you'll ever be able to digest about #2, many users there are very well versed in the subject.

[mahina]

4. I'm no lawyer but have to think

that if state law requires a handgun be registered, that would mean regardless of whether it is a new purchase or not.


I'm interested in finding out how you search state laws, so will be back to see if there's an answer.

[madmusic]

11. Thanks all

First, to try to be more specific, if someone from any state has to move to any other state, under federal law would it ever be necessary to notify the feds of a change of address? Say to move a silencer or for any reason. Or would it ever be necessary to inform the feds if the person leaves the state, say to go on vacation or on a business trip, even if their guns don't go with him? I'm trying to get a broad overview so it will be possible to narrow it down.

Hope that phrases it better.

To search state laws, most states have their laws on-line. To search case law, Google works fairly well though of course a law library is more certain. To try a Google search for an example, you could search for "CARON V. UNITED STATES" or better yet, because it is more precise, search for "524 U.S. 308". This last one refers to volume 524 of the U.S. reports, page 308, and the case is CARON V. UNITED STATES, 524 U.S. 308 (1998) altogether. If you don't like Google's privacy features, try http://us.ixquick.com/ first. Sometimes it gets hits Google misses anyway.

Sorry if you already knew all that.

There is a good SCOTUS collection here.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/

http://www.findlaw.com is also good for all over the states, often including the state appellate courts, state supreme courts and it includes the federal circuit courts along with SCOTUS. Just requires free registration to read the opinions.

Most states have their opinions officially on-line too. It's amazing what legal research is possible on-line nowadays.

[facepalm]

22. no, you're fine with silencers

You're not required to inform the feds when you go interstate with silencers, but you are required for the other NFA items. I would still inform the NFA branch of a change in address if you are moving with silencers though.

The feds don't care about Title I firearms unless you are moving them interstate for the purposes of selling them. Check your local/state laws for rules on registration of any particular guns you may own.

[hokies4ever]

5. NFL case

A player in the NFL was prosecuted on multiple charges I think, but at least one of them was that he had an unregistered gun. I think it was Tank Johnson, and his gun was actually registered in another state, but not the one he was currently living in. Here's a start of a reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Johnson#Legal_troubles
I think that when they refer to Tank Johnson's 'unlicensed' handguns, they were actually licensed in another state.

[madmusic]

12. Thanks, evidently it didn't work for him.

Waukegan attorney Thomas Briscoe contended Friday in Lake County Circuit Court that the guns were legally purchased and registered in Arizona, where Johnson is a legal resident despite his purchase of a home in the northern Chicago suburb of Gurnee. That was where police seized six loaded and unloaded guns and hundreds of rounds of ammunition during a raid in December.

But, as your link says, "On March 15, 2007, Johnson was sentenced to a 120 days in Cook County Jail..."

That's kind of the legal twists I'm asking about though.

[sergeiAK]

6. C&R and NFA holders must re-register

When I moved, I had to send in the C&R "modification to license" form, which updated my address with the BATFE, well in advance of moving. The requirements for Title II/Class III weapon registration are more stringent, with notification/approval from BATFE needed to even transport the weapon to another state, regardless of how long you're staying.

As for the federal statutes governing it, check the BATF website, and look at the FFL requirements. Dunno where to find the NFA stuff, they've priced all that stuff out of my reach by now so I never really looked.

[madmusic]

13. Exactly, what happend if you don't update?

Jail? Confiscation? Loss of license? I'll check out the ATF site. Thanks.

[spin]

7. Depends on the state laws

Here in Florida we have no legal requirement to register firearms:

(1) LEGISLATIVE FINDINGS AND INTENT.--

(a) The Legislature finds and declares that:

1. The right of individuals to keep and bear arms is guaranteed under both the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and s. 8, Art. I of the State Constitution.

2. A list, record, or registry of legally owned firearms or law-abiding firearm owners is not a law enforcement tool and can become an instrument for profiling, harassing, or abusing law-abiding citizens based on their choice to own a firearm and exercise their Second Amendment right to keep and bear arms as guaranteed under the United States Constitution. Further, such a list, record, or registry has the potential to fall into the wrong hands and become a shopping list for thieves.

From: The 2007 Florida Statutes
To read the entire text: http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC335.HTM&Title=-%3E2007-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%20335#0790.335

Note: there are certain exceptions...read the entire link.

Note: Full-auto weapons can be owned except that ownership must comply with the provisions of Federal Law).

DISCLAIMER: I am not an attorney nor do I play one on TV. Any legal advise is free. You get what you pay for.

[rdenney]

8. In CA you must register your guns with the DOJ. Also no "assault weapons" allowed since 2000....

it varies by state so you need to make sure you are legal or the results could be very unpleasant.

[slackmaster]

9. Besides NFA, only handguns, .50 BMG rifles, and "AWs" are registered in Cali

For handgun, .50 BMG, and AW registrations, there is no procedure for notifying the Department of Justice when you move. You can move out of the state temporarily, taking the items with you, and move back in as long as you haven't notified the DoJ that you took them out.

[madmusic]

14. Cool, thanks for the tip et

[gorfle]

10. here is my guess...

In particular, a) if someone registers a gun and then moves to a new state, is it necessary to register it at the new address? If so, what federal statutes would cover that? b) Same question, but for someone who has a license to own machine guns or other more restricted guns, like a collector of curios and relics. If the owners moves, is it necessary to register the collection at the new state's address? In either case, what happens if the gun owner fails to do so for any reason?

Here is my guess:

a)Most places do not require firearms to be registered. So if I moved from a jurisdiction that required my firearms to be registered into a new jurisdiction that did not require my firearms to be registered, I would assume that I needed to do nothing.

b)My understanding is that C&R license is only required to purchase such firearms and have them delivered to your doorstep and not through an FFL dealer. You don't need the C&R license to actually own the firearms. If you wanted to keep your C&R license current, you would need to update the paperwork, of course. The C&R license is a federally-issued license.

c)Now in order to own restricted firearms, like machine guns, that require a class III license, yes, this paperwork would need to be updated no matter where you moved. Again, this is a federal permit.

These are all my guesses based on brief knowledge.

[madmusic]

15. Cool. Thanks again all.

Good enough for the kickoff.

[Odinskin]

16. Employers asking about gun ownership? Legal?

Can an employer ask a possible employee if they own a gun? More specifically can they require you to disclose the type, number owned, and years owned? I recently applied for a job with the fire department and these questions were in the background packet. Failure to answer a question is an automatic disqualification, and if I say I don't own a gun can they check and then fire me for lying on my application?

Any info is appreciated.

[bossy22]

17. don't know

it would be illegal form them to discriminate against you for owning legal weapons- that im sure of


I've never heard of an FD asking those questions- if they ever asked us such a question they would be surprised how big an arsenal a small Volly department has

[Indy Lurker]

23. You are incorrect

It depends on your state, but in general, only a few "protected classes" cannot be fired.

These would be Race, religion, gender, and sexual orientation, etc.

Unless it is spelled out in a contract (such as a union contract) you can be terminated for owning a gun, using a competitor's product (drinking Pepsi, or driving a Ford), or even for being a Green Bay Packers fan.

[iverglas]

26. and once again ...

The joy of having no workers' rights.

Unless it is spelled out in a contract (such as a union contract) you can be terminated for owning a gun, using a competitor's product (drinking Pepsi, or driving a Ford), or even for being a Green Bay Packers fan.

Where I'm at, this might be possible -- but the employer could expect to pay appropriate damages for unjust dismissal, if the appropriate notice / pay in lieu were not given. And if the employment were under federal jurisdictin (banking, telecommunications, transportation ...), the employee could demand actual reinstatement.

"At will" employment, I believe you call yours?

[bossy22]

28. no arguement there

i think canada has got it right when it comes to workers rights

[Indy Lurker]

30. Yes, At will.

In Illinois, an employee can be terminated, and no reason needs to be given.

You can simply tell an employee "Your services are no longer needed, your employment is terminated."

You would however, have to pay "unemployment benefits" for a given period of time, or until the person found a new job.

At will employment also means you may quit your job for a better one without giving notice.

[Turbo Teg]

18. Here's the deal on that.

I didn't read everyones post in this thread so if I miss something I'm sorry. What state do you live in? Did you ever register your guns before? If you lived in a state were you had to register your guns, then they could probably check it out and see what you got. If you moved to a state that doesn't require registration, but had one registered before, then they could still probably check in the state that had it registered. Depending on state, the information may be public record and anyone can check it out, kinda like are CCW permits here in ohio, or it may be sealed information that someone may need a court order to check. That I'm not sure of. Now, if your in a state that doesn't require registration, and you've never registered a gun before, then no, there is no way for them to find out if you have one. The ATF has to purge there computers of all personal information about a person doing a background check 24 hours after the background check has been completed. I believe the only thing they can keep is the NTN (NICS transaction number)and if it was Procceded, denied, or cancelled. Now the gun dealer has to keep the form 4473 for 20 years, and it can be checked at anytime by the ATF. I don't believe the records are open to local law enforcement without a warrent, but I'm not sure on that. I believe it will be a pain in the ass for anybody to check up on you if you've never registered anything, and I doubt they'd be able to disqualify you for owning weapons, but who knows. It says you can't discriminate because of race, age, religeon, sex, etc. but it doesn't say anything about weapons. Here's another reason I'm against registration right here.

[iverglas]

21. "Here's another reason I'm against registration right here."

Odd.

I'd see it as a reason for having some decent workers' rights and privacy rights, and ways of enforcing them.

Where I'm at, employers don't get to do things like drug test prospective employees, or employees, unless they can demonstrate some very good employment-related reason to do so. For instance. Not like where you're at, eh?

I can't see an employer getting away with asking prospective employees about firearms ownership in any Canadian province. I would see a long and annoying and somewhat expensive privacy complaint procedure in any such employer's future. With a loss at the end.

And yet we have firearms registration ...


Now, heh, Manitoba does have this one of its job postings:

http://www.gov.mb.ca/conservation/regoperations/resofficer/pdf/2007_park_patrol_officer_bulletin.pdf

POSITION: PARK PATROL OFFICER - Resource Officer 1 (R01)
Required qualifications:
... Canadian Firearm Safety Course or valid Firearms licence

Here's an interesting one:

http://www.terracoredrilling.com/Terracore-Employment-Application.pdf

Are you taking any prescription medication?

That will get tossed by the first Human Rights Commission that looks at it, and I'm gobsmacked to see it there. Are you taking any prescription medication that could affect your ability to perform this work? maybe. But no, employers here don't get to ask their prospective employees whether they're using prescription contraception. Anyhow, it also says:

The following Terms and Conditions must be complied to while in the employment of Terracore Speciality Drilling Ltd.
Drugs and alcohol are strictly prohibited
Possesion of firearms on work sites is prohibited.

But no questions about owning firearms. And yet we have firearms registration ...


It says you can't discriminate because of race, age, religeon, sex, etc. but it doesn't say anything about weapons.

No, and "it" probably doesn't say anything about shoe size, either.

But a place with decent workers' rights and privacy legislation wouldn't tolerate questions about either.

http://www.ipc.on.ca/index.asp?layid=86&fid1=87

Reasonableness in the Context of Workplace Privacy
By Mary O'Donoghue, Senior Legal Counsel, Ontario Information and Privacy Commission

... The reasonable person standard is a limitation on the purposes for which an organization may collect, use or disclose personal information:

5(3) An organization may collect, use or disclose personal information only for purposes that a reasonable person would consider are appropriate in the circumstances.

... The Federal Privacy Commissioner has indicated recently that in his view, while the "reasonable person" standard will be challenging to interpret, it is the key to the statute, which establishes not just fair information practices, but a right of privacy in the workplace. He said that the law makes him the proxy for the reasonable person.

... While unionized workers have been able to raise issues of privacy in the workplace under the grievance procedure, PIPEDA establishes a forum for the first time where unorganized employees of federal undertakings may seek resolution of those issues.

... Employers must incorporate reasonableness as a core element of workplace policy and procedure. For unorganized employees, in the new era of PIPEDA, the employer is no longer the sole arbiter of what is reasonable. Therefore, before taking action, the employer should be asking - What would the reasonable and objective outsider think is appropriate in the circumstances?

Privacy. It's the 21st century way.

[bossy22]

24. curious

Now, heh, Manitoba does have this one of its job postings:

http://www.gov.mb.ca/conservation/regoperations/resoffi...


POSITION: PARK PATROL OFFICER - Resource Officer 1 (R01)
Required qualifications:
... Canadian Firearm Safety Course or valid Firearms licence


im actually curious to why they would have this requirement

[iverglas]

25. position description

Park Patrol Officers enforce provincial laws and regulations made to protect parks and the people who use them. One shift might find you doing a campground patrol and the next day backcountry work. A key role is to provide a safe and enjoyable environment in provincial park campgrounds. You are the type of person that likes a challenge; one that is resourceful and versatile. You love the outdoors and working in different environments.
We will provide comprehensive training and develop your potential to pursue your chosen career. If you are looking for a job in Conservation or Law Enforcement, this is a great start!

Bears, I suspect. ;)

[bossy22]

27. makes sense

though i find it interesting that the law wouldnt have an exception for possesion of a firearm for official government duty- but then again i would love to see those exceptions in the US gone too

my friend actually just got a job with the NYC parks dept as a park ranger...though i doubt there would be bears there

[iverglas]

29. exception?

though i find it interesting that the law wouldnt have an exception for possesion of a firearm for official government duty

There's no exception here. Oh wait, you're saying wouldn't have an exception. So I'm not following at all.

I expect that some park officers carry firearms while on duty, e.g. in the backcountry, for self-protection against predators and to protect the public from predators. I doubt that they carry them for "law enforcement purposes"; not sure about Manitoba. So the individual would have to be licensed, but the firearm would presumably be provided by the employer.

Any member of the public with a firearms licence can keep firearms handy in remote areas:

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/wild_e.asp

Safe Storage

All firearms must be unloaded for storage.

Ordinarily, non-restricted firearms must either be made inoperable or locked in a sturdy cabinet, container or room that cannot easily be broken into. The ammunition must be kept separate unless it is locked up.

However, in a remote wilderness area, non-restricted firearms do not have to be made inoperable or locked up. They must be unloaded, but the ammunition can be kept handy.

As for law enforcement ... that would seem to posit handgun possession ... and that would call for a restricted firearms licence. An Ontario job posting says:

http://www.gojobs.gov.on.ca/Preview.aspx?JobID=8137

Position requires: the ability to be designated as a park warden and meet ministry certification criteria and standards in the use of force, the ability to obtain a Pleasure Craft Operator certificate, the ability to obtain Firearms Possession/Acquisition licence and hunting licence, and the ability to work shifts, weekends and statutory holidays as per schedule and a valid driver`s licence.

So I dunno. An ordinary PAL doesn't allow handgun acquisition/possession. I'd have to google a whole lot more to figure this out, and I want to go home for supper!


Aha. I'm catching on. There is an exception. ;)

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/bulletins/police/bulletin32_e.asp

Who Can Benefit From The Exemption?

Public officers who may be exempt from the requirement to be the holder of a valid firearms licence are set out in several provisions - namely sections 117.07 and 117.08 of the Criminal Code, and in the Regulations Prescribing Public Officers.

Under section 117.07 of the Criminal Code, public officers may not be liable to prosecution or conviction for carrying out certain activities if they are acting in the course of their duties or employment. These activities are set out in subsection 117.07(1), and include possessing firearms. A "public officer" is defined in subsection 117.07(2) and includes peace officers, persons training to become police or peace officers while they are under the control and supervision of a police force or a police academy, and those persons identified as public officers in the Regulations Prescribing Public Officers. Police officers fall within this definition, as they are "peace officers" as set out in section 2 of the Criminal Code.

If I Am A Police Officer, And Qualify For The Exemption, What Exactly Does That Mean?

These exemptions mean that as a police officer you do not need to be the holder of a firearms licence to be in possession of the firearms you use to perform your daily duties as a part of your employment. It also means that you do not need to be the holder of a licence to acquire firearms and ammunition as a part of your employment. However, you need to follow certain procedures and provide certain information to acquire firearms and ammunition for employment purposes. A future Special Bulletin will address these issues.

So park wardens in Ontario -- who are defined as "peace officers" in the relevant legislation -- don't need PALs for firearms possession while on duty -- but it makes sense to make it a condition of employment that they qualify for one, I guess, e.g. have taken the necessary courses. Or just do what Manitoba does and require one -- that position description was for seasonal employment, so it's probably just easier to require a PAL for a summer job.

But:

What If I Have Firearms Other Than The Ones I Use At Work?

If you have personal firearms, you will still need a valid licence to possess your firearms, acquire new firearms, and acquire ammunition for those firearms. You would require Authorizations to Transport to move your personal restricted and prohibited firearms just like any other citizen. The safe storage, transportation and handling regulations would also apply to you.

Ugh, the creeping "citizen". You don't have to be a citizen to possess firearms. Up here, it's creep from the French citoyen, which is correctly translated as "member of the public".

[bossy22]

31. aha this is what i like

What If I Have Firearms Other Than The Ones I Use At Work?

If you have personal firearms, you will still need a valid licence to possess your firearms, acquire new firearms, and acquire ammunition for those firearms. You would require Authorizations to Transport to move your personal restricted and prohibited firearms just like any other citizen. The safe storage, transportation and handling regulations would also apply to you.

now there is a policy i can get behind...here in the states its different- for example in new york i need a handgun permit to purchase/possess/carry a handgun...police officers (Retired/offduty) do not need a license- even if the gun is a personal one...they can even by "prohibited firearms" for non-official use

the reason this is, is because the police lobby do not like gun laws that affect them- they freaked out when the domestic violence offender gun ban had the off-duty police officer exemption removed

the new new york state safe storage bill that passed has an exemption for retired/off duty police officers- cause ofcourse there kids are less likely to take their guns than normal civilians kids

[iverglas]

32. there we go

now there is a policy i can get behind...here in the states its different

It can actually be useful to see how other jurisdictions address common issues.

Now, next time a police outfit lobbies for exemptions/special treatment, you can say:

"Why should we do that? They don't do that in Canada <the UK, ...>, and they don't have any problems. Why should the police be exempted from laws that are designed to protect the public? Why shouldn't we put the public interest ahead of the private interests of members of police services the way they do in other countries like ours?"

The one thing that isn't mentioned in that quoted passage (because it's referring to the licensing of individuals) is that peace officers also have to register their firearms like anybody else.

[bossy22]

33. same with NY when it comes to handguns

"The one thing that isn't mentioned in that quoted passage (because it's referring to the licensing of individuals) is that peace officers also have to register their firearms like anybody else."

police in NYS have to register there personal handguns with the state....but aside from that the law really doesnt apply to them

[Longtooth]

19. Sounds very fishy to me.

I know you want the job and all but I do not understand what business it is to them what legal property you own. And if it is NFA stuff they may be overstepping their bounds by asking about tax information.

[Politically Homeless]

20. Re: Legal questions

Depends. If you're a prohibited possessor, you don't have to register your gun at all:

http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.haynes.html