Stupidity of short barrel laws

[Boomer 50]

There is a case about to start (maybe) in Delaware where a rifle has a barrel 15.8 inches in length. According to the law, the barrel must be 16 inches unless the rifle is registered as a short barreled rifle.

The more I think about this, the more perplexed I am by the stupidity of this situation. The guy has a rifle with a barrel that is shorter by about the length of this dash (-) than is "legal". He is facing 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for 1/8 of an inch.

I am just about fed up to the eyeballs with these stupid technical laws that are on the books. Who cares if the rifle has a barrel shorter than 16 inches? I mean, I can understand the intent on the books for reasons of concealability, but 1/8 of an inch?????????? There has to be a better way to work these laws where people with no criminal intent aren't prosecuted like this. So, I ask this, can anyone formulate a workable solution to this problem? (gun ban suggestions not wanted).

[napoleon_in_rags]

1. We need to fix the vast mathematical impairment.

a gun with a 15.7 inch barrel has a tiny probability of being more concealable than a 15.8 inch barrel, and the law should reflect that tiny probability with a tiny sentence.

[meegbear]

2. Move to Delaware, get elected as a state representative and vote against it

And here's Jackie to tell you all how to rid the world of all known diseases.

[EricTeri]

9. Think again

This isn't DE law but federal - AKA the National Firearms Act of 1934, frequently referred to as the NFA. This very law, and in fact, this exact situation, is what brought us US v. Miller.

[Old Codger]

3. you think?

Look into the ruby ridge incident, that was in fact about a gun that was 1/4 inch too short... BATF and FBI enforcing a tax law in fact, that is the difference between these being legal or not, a $200.00 tax.

[Wickerman]

4. Well, there is a law on the books

I agree that 1/8" difference is a pathetic difference for a man to get convicted on. So, How about giving leeway of 1/2"? Then, the next time some guy is caught with a gun 15 7/16" will you draw the line? Maybe it should be lowered to 15"? Wait, why not...

The intent of the law is to make it difficult to conceal such a weapon. The benchmark was set, the guy should follow the law. It's what being a law-abiding gunowner is about.

[benEzra]

5. Granted. I think intent/knowledge should at least be taken into account, though.

If the barrel is only 0.2 inch shorter than the legal limit, that looks like he made a measurement error. The average person would typically measure barrel length by putting a rod (like a cleaning rod) down the barrel, marking the rod with tape, then pulling it out and measuring. I imagine he probably used a yardstick to measure, and didn't allow for the fact that yardsticks are not ultra-precise measuring instruments, or perhaps he accidentally pushed the bolt back a quarter inch while he was marking the measuring rod. Either way, I think there should be some sentencing discretion, offer of a plea bargain to a misdemeanor + stiff fine and confiscation of the firearm, or something. It seems a bit draconian to make the sentence for a 0.2" measurement error with no harm to anyone harsher than the typical sentence for rape.

In the Ruby Ridge case, the agent provacateur marked the shotgun barrel at a legal looking 17.75" and badgered Weaver until he cut it for him. Dumb, yes, but it is not clear that there was any criminal intent there, either, and certainly not something that warranted a paramilitary assault with machineguns.

Personally, if it were me, I'd have a professional gunsmith do any barrel shortening I wanted, and that way if he screws up and cuts it too short, it is his problem (I would measure carefully before taking possession of it to ensure he hadn't accidentally created an illegal SBR).

[Wickerman]

6. Yeah, I think we can all agree Ruby Ridge was *slightly* over the top

I guess if I really needed a short-barrel, though for the life of me I don't know why I would, I'd have my gunsmith cut it an extra 1/8" to 1/4" just to save my ass from a big fine and/or a lengthy prison sentence.

[Tejas]

14. There are some desirable rifles

such as the semi-auto version of the Hungarian AMD-65 AKM. In original form, it qualifies as a SBR. To own one without a tax stamp, you have to permanently attach some type of barrel extension such as a longer aftermarket muzzle brake.

Doesn't make the rifle any less lethal whatsoever, just gives the ATF something else they can enforce.


:(



edit to add: This rifle has a side-folding stock, measures approx 24.25" long when folded.

[Old Codger]

17. actually

I was off a little there the one at ruby ridge was 1/4 short in overall length. The length of the barrel is critical by law also but if the barrel is a little short but overall length is ok it is no easier to conceal at all...

[iverglas]

26. rape! rape! rape!

It seems a bit draconian to make the sentence for a 0.2" measurement error with no harm to anyone harsher than the typical sentence for rape.

Lord jeezus, what is it about gun afficionados and rape??? They don't seem to be able to type a paragraph without dragging it in.


Too bad we don't seem to have a link to the actual story.

Is there some possibility that this individual is even remotely likely to get either the maximum term of imprisonment or the maximum fine? Forgive me if I doubt it -- unless the case actually does involve some circumstances of the nature that maximum penalties are designed for.

[EricTeri]

10. That was hardly the intent of the law. Learn your history. N/T

[Wickerman]

11. Thanks, very helpful

your level of anger on this board is freaking frightening.

[EricTeri]

12. There is no anger

Merely total intolerance for false statements. Upon re-reading it, i realize how you may have perceived that as anger. My apologies - I can be quite blunt at times.

Allow me to elaborate: The 1934 NFA was about one thing and one thing only: control. There was no intent to avoid concealability - Nobody even attempts to conceal a rifle. It was written that way solely to ensure that MOST rifles did not become illegal since most at that time had barrel lengths over 16". Didn't want to make the hunters think government was going after their guns...yet.

The NFA was the spiritual grandfather of the AWB. It banned classes of weapons and demonized them as the choice of criminals in an attempt to divide the gun owners in the United States.

[enfield collector]

19. it gets better, originally the min length was 18" for both rifles

and shotguns. the atf arbtrarily changed it to 16" to allow surplus M1 carbines to be sold by the .gov

[slackmaster]

13. There actually is an exception for certain curio or relic firearms

Anything that is specifically listed on the federal C&R roster is exempt, e.g. an old Marlin Camp Carbine with a 15-inch barrel.

[Turbo Teg]

23. agreed.

Although I do agree with you, I think the law is stupid, but it's the law. If/when he's convicted though, I hope that the sentance isn't very stiff, especially with no criminal intent. It's kinda funny though, because technically with the longer barrel it makes the firearm "more leathal" as velocity, range, and accuracy are all increased. Weather you have a 10 inch barrel or a 16 inch barrel on lets say an AR-15 type weapon, the differance in concealabilty will be neglagible. nothing a treanch coat couldn't conceal anyway.

[57_TomCat]

7. I agree that the law is stupid...

When the National Firearms Act was originally proposed handguns were included. A short barrel rifle restriction made sense if you were prohibited from ANY firearms less than 26 inches in length unless taxed. Since handguns were removed from the act before passage the limits still in the law are stupid. Even so it is the law. I have several short barrel carbines made from longer barrels but all of them are 16 1/4 inches or more. I have NO desire to argue intent or accident in my own trial. Know the law and follow it. In the case of barrels...measure twice, cut once. :)

[NickTX]

8. Yet another victim of asinine Gun laws.

These laws have no grounding whatsoever in common sense. The idea that rifle would be concealable because of its barrel length is ridiculous particularly when you consider the idea of rifle calibre pistols and bullpup rifle designs that effectively reduce the overall length of a weapon despite its 16' barrel.

The idea of gun laws however is not to make sense but to become so burdensome and such a hassle that the idea of firearm ownership is less than appealing to the average citizen. These days just to own a gun and understand the law you damn near have to take a college level course on criminal justice. It is not uncommon that I run into people in day to day life who honestly believe you have to register or a gun or posses a license to own a gun. The misconceptions of gun law are of course promoted through Television shows and a news media who writes articles without even understanding the basics of what they are writing about.

The common sense approach would be to punish those you find concealing weapons Instead of punishing someone based on an arbitrary barrel length. However that would make sense and that is NOT the goal of gun laws.

[Indy Lurker]

15. Where does a Olympic Arms OA-93 fit in?

Chambered in the evil M-16 / AR-15 size round

It has a 6.5" barrel

I believe it's considered a pistol.

[L1A1Rocker]

16. Yes it is a pistol by law and another example of how BAD the law is.

I receiver that would "normally" be used in a rifle may be used to make a pistol. But there is a kicker here. If you wish to make that kind of pistol you MUST use a fresh virgin receiver. ATF has determined that once the receiver is used as a rifle it is FOREVER a rifle. Should you strip down your rifle and put it into "pistol" configuration you have created an illegal short barraled rifle.

Also note: If you have one of those pistols you cannot attach a rifle stock of any form to it (c& r exceptions apply to this) because doing so makes the pistol a short barraled rifle.

Yes the laws are complex. So much so that people have been convicted only later to be released after the mix up has discovered.

[Indy Lurker]

18. another interesting pistol

Universal "Enforcer" in .30 carbine

[Major Hogwash]

20. They just arrested 2 guys here with a sawed off shotgun and several weapons

in their car. The shotgun not only had the barrel cut down, but also the stock.

They were pulled over because the taillights were out on their car.
As they were pulling over to the side of the road, the passenger threw something out of his window, the sawed off shotgun.

In the car there was another shotgun, a pistol and a stun gun.
Both men were arrested and taken to jail.
The driver of the car was 26 years old while the passenger was 18 years old.

There are reasons why there are laws on the books about the lenghts of the barrels of rifles and shotguns.

[scrinmaster]

21. And those reasons are?

[Major Hogwash]

29. You don't know already?

Then you don't get your free pony!

LoL

[bossy22]

22. what makes a

sawed off shotgun more lethal than a standard shotgun- logically it should be the opposite if you take into account ballistics

[Turbo Teg]

24. You are correct.

You can't really hit anything more than 20 feet or so away from you with a very chopped sawed off shotgun. Hell I was out shooting my 18 inch shotgun yesterday and shot birdshot and buckshot (about 4 rounds each) at a target about 40 yards off and not one pellet made it on to the target. That could be for a few different reasons, 1 bieng using the bead sight isn't extremely accurate.

[Boomer 50]

25. Update

BATFE is declining to prosecute. Not sure what has happened but they apparantly went to a pretrial meeting and then dropped the charges. Now the owner is suing for the return of the rifle so that it may be fixed. The rifle is a factory gun that had the barrel cut shorter than it should have been. Factory offered to fix the problem by rebarreling it for free. BATFE doesn't want to give the gun back.

[sir pball]

32. If that's the case..

Manufacturer should have to pay a hefty (6 figs+) fine, plus all expenses incurred on this gentleman including costs and lost wages, and if the BATFE won't give the gun back they should provide him with another one for free.

While I can see the argument for errors in a DIY job, there is *no excuse* for a manufacturer to screw up like this. They know the exact way the BATFE measures the barrel and they have the equipment to do it right, this should never have happened.

[depakid]

27. "10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine for 1/8 of an inch."

Draconian criminal laws and so called zero tolerance go hand in hand with libertarian attitudes toward firearms.

One of those tragic ironies of 21st Century America.

[gorfle]

28. Some points.

While I agree 1/8, 1/2, or even 1 inch either way is a ridiculous line in the sand to draw, the fact of the matter is, this is an insanely easy law to comply with.

If you are going to own a rifle that pushes the limit on the legal length, you should be damn sure of what you are doing.

There is no need to come up with some sliding scale to make the law more "workable", whereby the sentence is proportional to the number of inches you are under the limit.

The limit is set, it is known, and it is easy to check your firearm for compliance.

Obey the law, and don't whine.

[Firethorn]

30. People shouldn't have to worry about it though...

How does this factor in with that this was apparently a factory mistake?

Not to mention that there are a few different ways to measure barrel length, the BATFE likes to use ones that give the shortest lengths.

I'll whine if I want to because I think that the law is wrong.

Of course, on my list of gun legislation, I'd prefer to see national recognition of CCW permits. We have it for drivers licenses.

[Callisto32]

31. If...

It is determined that that this was a mistake that occurred at the factory, I can see no reason why the man should be prosecuted, other than that the BATFE is just like any other government entity and they need to prove that they are "doing something" so that they can continue to dip their hands ever further into the public coffers. No bureaucrat will ever do something that makes his bureau less complicated, or takes away from its jurisdiction, it just isn't good for job security.

22. what makes a

sawed off shotgun more lethal than a standard shotgun- logically it should be the opposite if you take into account ballistics
-bossy22

I think that this was intended to limit a person's ability to conceal a long arm. I realize that this is a federal issue, but I find this particularly interesting living in a state in which open carry of firearms is legal. The worst that can happen to you here (outside of the typical gun-free government zones) for it is that a private property owner asks you to leave and you don't, creating a situation of defiant trespass. However, if you wised to conceal a shotgun for nefarious ends, I don't suspect that you are worrying about a defiant trespass charge and probably have your sights (clever gun allusion) set on much "higher" goals. Once again we have an apparent situation of making the law abiding suffer because of the actions and motivations of people who will not be controlled by laws anyway, as per the definition of "criminal."


Edit: Just read number 25. :-/

[Tejas]

33. So, is

a recall in the works? What rifle by what company?