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Is it true that legally muzzleloaders are not firearms?

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beevul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:49 PM
Original message
Is it true that legally muzzleloaders are not firearms?
I have heard this before, and done a small amount of looking, but never found an answer that satisfied me.


If true, what would the person that had the black powder rifle at the school in the other threads be charged with?

If true, can a felon possess a muzzleloader?

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WCGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. Don't you remember....
The Indians on TV westerns always called guns Fire Sticks...

See, they aren't fire arms....

They are fire sticks...
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
2. No, it is not true. Muzzle loaded firearms are still firearms in the eyes of federal law. n/t
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 10:54 PM by Poll_Blind
PB
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. Please read the posts downstream. (nt)
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madeline_con Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. They are a firearm.
They're a one shot weapon.Then you reload. There are rules against "weapons" in schools, so it doesn't matter what the distinction is.
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jmeyer Donating Member (57 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. it is true
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:01 PM by jmeyer
See 18 USC 921(a)(16)(C)

Basically, all muzzleloaders, whether actually antique or modern manufacture, are considered antiques under the Gun Control Act of 1968.

The question of whether a felon can possess one varies depending on the state.
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TheFarseer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. get a bow and arrows
no one will mess with you if you carry a bow and arrows around.
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guntard Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. I got messed with for carrying a rifle stock
Motor cop pulled up and told me they had been getting calls one day when I carried a rifle stock home from the office.
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Howzit Donating Member (918 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-26-07 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
6. As soon as you load a muzzle loader, California considers it a "firearm"
Edited on Wed Sep-26-07 11:34 PM by Howzit
Page 10 http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

"The general prohibition in this section does not include antique firearms. An antique
firearm is defined as any firearm that was manufactured in or before 1898 and is not
designed or redesigned to use rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed
ammunition. This includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of
ignition system or replica thereof, regardless of the date of manufacture. Firearms
manufactured in or before 1898 that use fixed ammunition which is no longer
manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade are also considered antiques."


Page 35 http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/Cfl2006.pdf

"LOADED FIREARMS
Loaded Firearms in a Public Place
It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on ones person or in a vehicle while in any public
place, on any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm."

"A muzzle-loading firearm is deemed loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder."

Federal regs are close to this.

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. Not under Federal law, but are under some state laws.
It often depends on the context; if you are carrying a blackpowder handgun concealed, or threaten somebody with a muzzleloader, it will most certainly be considered a firearm, but the laws regarding purchasing and possession generally exempt them.
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guntard Donating Member (427 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
8. You can buy muzzleloaders mail order with no FFL
For that reason I have often considered them non-firearms legally (at least according to Federal law; state law of course can be more restrictive).

But the JBTs have an arsenal of charges at their disposal if they want to nail a gun owner for frightening the sheep, starting with disturbing the peace.

Note: I still can't figure out how the CMP can ship battle rifles to your door with no FFL. I know there's some kind of Federal exemption, but no one has ever pointed it out to me, or explained why it still exists. Does Dianne Feinstein know about this?
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amper Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-22-07 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. FFL Exemption for CMP
Edited on Mon Oct-22-07 07:36 PM by amper
From the USC which creates the CMP:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+36USC40733

From the USC concerning firearms (NFA or GCA of 1968, I
believe):

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC922
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
9. They are firearms but not regulated by the federal government
Muzzle-loading weapons are treated the same as antiques. Anyone can buy them by mail order.

If true, can a felon possess a muzzleloader?

Good question. I don't know.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-27-07 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. In most states, I believe convicted felons can possess muzzleloaders...
as long as they are not doing anything illegal with them, of course. But the Gun Control Act of 1968 and its prohibition on ownership by people with felony records only applies to "firearms" as defined under Federal law, which excludes muzzleloaders and very old antiques.
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fedupfisherman Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yes
As long as it cannot be converted to fire fixed ammo (like the TC Pro Hunter)
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Aventurier Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
15. Muzzleloaders
Jumpin' Jeezus Lizards, the day I get a muzzleloader pointed at me by a criminal is the day I empty all seven .357 rounds very quickly. Nobody wants a .50 caliber hard-cast sabot headed their way. Modern muzzleloaders are single-shot rifles, nothing more.
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fedupfisherman Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. or pistols or shotguns
muzzleloaders are simply guns loaded from the muzzle
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Aventurier Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-23-07 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. Single-shot firearms
Sorry, I have to drag this thread into abject weirdness, it's my nature.

I'm a lot more afraid of some aggressor with a single-shot firearm (like a muzzleloader) than a thug with a 20-shot glock.

First of all, any dude or dudette who steps up to me and threatens my life and/or property with a single-shot firearm has got balls the size of Oklahoma. That's the kind of dude or dudette you do not want to have to deal with, ever. He or she is obviously either mentally disturbed or really, really, dangerous.

Second, they got only one shot, so it's gonna kill somebody if they fire. They are not gonna fire any warning shots or cap you in the leg or anything - they've got one big bullet and they are going to let you have it if they want to. So even if they don't fire, it's a seriously intimidating situation. Even if they are seriously outnumbered, somebody is going to get a face full of 50-caliber friendliness.

I'd be much more afraid of a robber with a 50-caliber single-shot flintlock than a guy with an AR-15. At least the burglar with the AR might have the courtesy to wound you.



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freebrew Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Well, except for the misfires
which occur very frequently with flinters or caps.

AKs rarely misfire.
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amper Donating Member (18 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-24-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I'm shopping for one right now...
Definitely going to get one before they close the supposed "loophole".
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moroni Donating Member (136 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-31-07 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Black Powder Firearms
A few years ago, we had a (federal) police officer shot with a .45 cal black powder revolver at the hospital where I work. (I just talked to him to get my facts correct before posting). Black powder weapons are NOT necessarily single shot devices. Our officers are now armed with 9mm Berettas. The officer survived but is no longer on performing "police" duties. At the time he (and all officers working in the hospital) were not armed. That is no longer the case. It seems plausable that "it" can happen anywhere and at anytime.

You are responsible for your own safety and the safety of those that are with you.

Blessings to all,
moroni
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