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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 09:39 AM
Original message
Converting Glock pistols into fully automatic weapons
SUMMARY:
Gang members in California and Florida have been converting Glock pistols into FULLY-AUTOMATIC firing weapons.

DETAILS:
Gang members in Florida and California have been converting Glock pistols to have fully automatic firing capabilities. In regions of California , police are treating any Glock they encounter as a fully automatic firing weapon.

A full automatic Glock will fire 33 bullets in seconds with one trigger pull. And the gun can be quickly converted to full automatic mode for as little as $10 with homemade parts.

Conversion is fast and simple requiring no technical expertise. The conversion is accomplished merely by swapping one piece for the other and takes less than 15 seconds to do.

http://www.kpoa.org/officer_safety.asp
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. And if the 'bangers maintain that Glock the way they usually do...
It will jam all the time. Not that this makes it any safer.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I seem to recall an article that lauded the Glock as a reliable
pistol after firing some thousands of rounds without cleaning and without experiencing a single malfunction that can be attributed to the gun's state of maintenance or cleanliness.

I can't find it right now, but I'm still looking.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yikes.
If true, why doesn't the military issue those as sidearms?
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. The Austrian military issues the Glock to its troops.
My brother-in-law has a small Glock...don't know which model. That thing is still heavy as a brick and very unwieldy.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Wasteful of ammunition and no compelling tactical use for them
A selective-fire rifle can do anything an automatic pistol can do better. The only possible advantages to the pistol are concealability, and the ability to work in VERY tight spaces.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. To late for the last adoption of a Pistol
The Glocks came out just after the US Army selected its present pistol, the M9. Thus was not ready to be tested when the Army was looking to replace the M1911A1 so not adopted. The Army does not like changing its weapons more than it half to and once the M9 was adopted it has been a good weapon.

The Glocks main attribute, that its action gives it the Trigger pull more like a revolver than an automatic would NOT have been a selling point for the Army, since the Army had been using an Automatic since before WWI unlike most police departments that used Revolvers before the recent widespread adoption of Automatics. It is this switch, starting in the 1980s and going big time in the 1990s that made the Glock the well-adopted weapon it has become. A factor of more concern to Police Departments than the Army.
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HALO141 Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
35. The Berretta 92F (military's M9)...
Continuouslyreliability issues. The lugs often sheer off after around 20,000 rounds and the after-market magazines the military is issuing have serious, deficiencies. I understand from some sources that the problem with the lugs was due to bad metallurgy and has been solved in current production but the magazine problems persist. OEM Beretta magazines are highly prized among the soldiers.

I had occasion, about six months ago, to inspect a Beretta on which the slide had failed catastrophically. The sides of the slide had failed completely at the rear of the ejection port. Ive seen other pistols fail but never this dramatically.

On top of the reliability and durability issues, there is the problem of effectiveness. The 9mm (hardball) round is grossly ineffective, usually requiring multiple shots to neutralize a threat. The extra time and ammunition spent neutralizing one threat handicaps an individuals ability to deal with parallel or subsequent threats as need may dictate, enhancing the individuals exposure to harm.

The USMC never totally gave up the 1911 in .45 ACP and has continuously issued them to our Force Recon folks. The Corps has also recently contracted to purchase a number of new 1911s from Kimber which are earmarked for the new USMC Special Operations Command Detachment.

The decision to move to a 9mm system was a bad one and the military has been characteristically taciturn in admitting its mistake.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-05 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
johnnyDoc Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #3
23. No external safety
and no double strike capability
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
4. Or the Feared Full-Automatic Pistol
How come whenever a designer comes up with a Fully Automatic Pistols it does NOT sell? Could it be that you can't hit anything with it?

As a general rule, any weapon to be effective in an Automatic Mode must be heavier than the same weapon in a semi-automatic mode. The reason for this is the control the tendency of any automatic weapon to shoot up and the right (or left if left handed). What is meant by the term "Up and to the Right" is that the only round that gets close to the target is the first round, the second round will be up and to the right of that first rounds, the Third round will be up and to the right of the Second and so forth.

To reduce this tendency True Machine Guns are put on Tri-pods(Or fired from a bi-pod). True Machine guns also reduce this effect by their weight (which can be 2-3 times the weight of a Rifle, 10 times if you are talking about heavy machine guns).

Another way to reduce this effect is to make the weapon heavier. The reason for the up and to the Right is that your body is reacting to the recoil of the previous round but never fully thus full automatic weapons slowly go up and to the right. One way to reduce this tendency (I.e. make each round closer together as the rounds go up and to the right) is to use a heavier weapon. True Sub-machine guns are 2-3 times the weight for Pistols firing the same round. The reason for this is to better control the weapon as it goes up and to the right in the full automatic mode.

Back to the Full-Automatic Glocks. I do NOT know how the Glocks are being converted to full Automatic mode, I am assuming from the Article that the conversion is being done by removing and reversing the sear(which prevents full-automatic fire in most automatics). I will not go into how dangerous that is (for example the weapon may continue to fire even after the shooter STOPS pulling the trigger till all of the rounds are fired). I will just mention how non-effective such fully automatic pistols have been since the first one was made in the late 1800s. Pistols are just to light to be effective in full -automatic, the few that have been "successful" not only were automatic but had provisions for add on shoulder stocks to both give additional weight AND more control over the weapon (Rifles, Shotguns and submachine guns are generally superior accuracy in most hands do to the fact you are NOT only holding the weapon in both hands but also your shoulder, thus shoulder stocks on full automatic pistols are needed to give someone any form of control over the pistol in the full automatic mode).

Given the above, If I was a police Officer I would be more a criminal with a Glock that was NOT converted than by a Glock that has been converted, for the later has a much better chance of hitting me with a bullet if fired.
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. There's a video in the link.
And the demonstrator does a good job of hitting his target with the fully auto Glock.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Closed course, two handed grip with a Glock DESIGNED for Auto fire
Edited on Tue Apr-26-05 11:01 AM by happyslug
From what I have read Glock does sell a full-automatic version of its pistols, it is heavier than a standard Glock (Through on the Glock web site the weight of both pistols are given as almost the same). I have also seen and heard of people doing the same with full automatic M1896 Mauser "Broom-Handle" Full Automatic Pistols, Browning P35 in Full-automatic Mode, and even Russian Stechkins in full automatic. The issue is NOT that the weapon fired, but was the fire effective? In the video you cite, the shooter hit the target, but was his firing all of those rounds more effective than if he had fired in the Semi-automatic mode? I do not think so. If you are a police officer and you run across someone like the shooter in the Video, you will be hit even if the shooter has a flintlock pistol. He has had plenty of experience with that weapon, AND HE IS FIRING IT IN A CONTROL COURSE (Both things rare in real life).

Please note once he opts for multiple targets he fires in the Semi-automatic mode, for its increase accuracy and where you see him shoot the Glock in a one hand hold in Full Automatic mode you do not see the target (You do see the target when he has the Glock in a two hand mode). Two handed is perferred, but do you really think most gang members will undergo the training needed to shoot as well as this shooter?

Glock Web Site:
http://www.glock.com/home.htm

For Spec on the Glock G17 (Standard Glock Pistol):
http://www.glock.com/g17.htm

For specs on Full -Automatic Glock:
http://www.glock.com/g18.htm
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Untrue
In the video, when he engages multiple targets, he does so with the pistol firing automatically. He does, however, engage them in a burst-like fashion.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I have viewed that Video Three times
Once after you pointed out he engaged multiple Targets in Full-Automatic Fire Mode, maybe it is my monitor or my eyes, but when I look at the Multiple Target part of the Video he is firing in the Semi-automatic mode.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. You compensate your aim.
When you use a SMG or similar you aim a little down and to the left and fire short bursts. Used with firing discipline it is not horribly wasteful of ammo. Some weapons have a two-shot mode that is quit useful in that regard.

But yes, most GIs would empty the clip at the first provocation.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Agreed, but that is NOT the point I was making
It was the TENDENCY to go up and to the Right NOT how to compensate for it. Fully-Automatic Pistols have failed for over 100 years based on the fact it is much harder to hit anything in the Automatic Mode as compared to the Semi-automatic mode. One of the reasons Sub-machine were adopted just before and during WWII was to overcome this defect (In many armies of WWII era Submachine Guns replaced Pistols for this reason).
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. Interesting omission from the Kansas POA's statement
Converting a semiautomatic firearm to fully automatic without going through the required federal paperwork is illegal.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_se...
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Squatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. The KPOA's statement was a safety bulletin for its officers,
alerting them to the apparently wide availability and implementation of this conversion.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. I hope they are arresting these illegal converters with extreme prejudice
:nuke:
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
11. Actually, to fire 33 rounds,
the Glock in question needs a 33-round magazine from a Glock 18 (duh). All Glock magazines are interchangeable, but for the 9mm's, a Glock 26 comes with a 10-round magazine; a Glock 19, 15 rounds; a Glock 17, 17 rounds.

Can this be verified anywhere else? Are they making a new sear or are they using illegal Class III sears made by somebody with machine-shop expertise?

FWIW, Glocks are among the most reliable of all handguns,which is why 70% of police departments (and lots of non-LEO civilians, including my wife) use them.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
14. Based on the Model 18...
http://remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/18 /

The big difference being that the illegally converted weapons have no semi-auto ability.

I don't know that it takes only a few seconds to convert. It takes me 15 seconds to field strip a SIG, so I do wonder about hyperbole.

Also interesting was this quote:

Assume all gangs across the country are aware of this simple conversion and approach with extreme caution


Who is to be approached? When would the police not approach an armed suspect with caution? Is there measurable difference between ordinary and extreme caution in extreme conditions?
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. I want to own one....
legally.

Repeal the 1986 machine gun ban.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I have fired one owned by an MG dealer and SOT in Nevada
It was kind of fun but didn't seem very practical to me. Using it effectively would require a lot of practice, and you'd burn up a whole lot of ammunition.

If I were to choose a selective-fire 9 mm weapon I'd rather have an MP-5 or an Uzi. Better still, something in .45 ACP. Or a couple of hand grenades.

:nuke:
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NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
21. OMG -- that might void the warranty!
:dunce:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. LOL! Best response ever on a Glock thread.
:D
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
22. News Flash--this may be an urban legend...
I asked about this on the High Road (popular gun forum frequented by lots of gun experts and law enforcement types).

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=136379

One responder said:

"I first read this memo in 1995 when I was new to law enforcement. It is institutionalized paranoia, codified to strengthen budget proposals from then until the end of fiscal years entirely."

I also notice that the Kansas officer safety bulletin says this is happening in California and Florida (not Kansas), but links to no primary sources in California and Florida.

There is also the issue that Glocks ordinarily aren't fully cocked by the slide cycling, but rely on the trigger pull to complete the cocking process. The Glock 18, and aftermarket military/LEO conversion devices, apparently modify this arrangement somewhat, but it seems as if it would be unlikely that your average inner-city criminal could pull it off "in a matter of seconds" with $10 of materials.

So I'm a bit skeptical.
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Postmanx Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. I agree
Edited on Tue Apr-26-05 01:35 PM by Postmanx
A Google search will turn up a patented, after-market Glock selector switch and this thing requires major machining to produce.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. Aw, come on, you know all you need is a beer can, scissors, and paper clip
:dunce:
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Postmanx Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I thought
Super-glue, a rubber band and a toothpick counted as "machine gun parts".
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Looks like the Kansas PD stole the video from
Edited on Tue Apr-26-05 08:04 PM by benEzra
a company that makes NFA Class III conversion kits for POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

http://www.fss-g.com/applications.htm

(Oops...guess the PD didn't read that Notice of Intellectual Property bit on the company's site...)

Apparently the company's gadget replaces the backplate of the pistol's slide and somehow locks the firing pin in the forward position when the selector is switched to auto. Yes, it's slamfiring as the breech locks...I personally wouldn't want to try that with hot ammunition or in a .40 (I'd be afraid of out-of-battery ignition).

Note for non-gunnies--this gadget is completely and totally illegal for sale to civilians. Somehow I don't think many are "on the street," unless police agencies are handing them out to their local criminals, and I don't think you could make one "in a matter of seconds"... Are there a few illegally converted handguns out there? Possibly. But I am pretty sure that the "gangs all over the country doing this" and "treat every Glock as a full-auto" business is urban legend.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-26-05 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Wasn't there one in Face Off?...nt
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Postmanx Donating Member (524 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-05 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. It is not slam firing
It works exactly the way a Glock 18 does. A tapered blade trips the disconnecter as the pistol goes fully into battery, causing the firing pin to be released. The same principal is at work in the HK VP70Z.

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-27-05 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. Oops, you're quite right (n/t)
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VTMechEngr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. You do know that Glock makes a model that IS full auto
Edited on Thu Apr-28-05 10:10 AM by VTMechEngr
It has a selector switch to change between semi and full auto. I think its the model 18.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Yup...
on the G18, the selector switch is on the left side of the slide (IIRC), and the Phoenix Arms Class III conversion puts the selector mechanism on the slide's rear face.
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johnnyDoc Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. but civilians can't buy them
due to the restriction on full autos having to have been in civilian hands and registered before 1986
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. I just spoke with a police officer friend about this
She's a San Diego PD officer who works in an interdepartmental gang unit - All the municipal PDs plus the San Diego County Sheriff.

I asked her if she'd ever seen or heard of a Glock pistol converted to full auto. She said she had seen thousands of gang-banger's guns but never a converted Glock.
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NightRainFalls Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-28-05 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. This is impossible without complex machine skills.
As a long time Glock owner who has disassembled and reassembled my gun more than I would care to remember, I can tell you with absolute certainty that until the trigger is pulled the striker is only partially cocked. As the slide returns to battery after firing, the striker cocked less than half way. This is a safety precaution, because from this position the striker does not have the force to ignite the primer detonating the powder in the case.

Because of this unique feature, it is necessary to pull the trigger back to complete the cocking of the striker. At a certain point the sear slides off the rear of the striker and the gun fires. To produce a fully auto glock one would need to find a way to cock the striker without pulling the trigger. This is possible and has been done by both glock, and aftermarket makers, but it requires tremendous machine skill, and the machines needed to do the work. No thug with a 8th grade education and screwdriver can do this.

Also, it is pointless to have a full auto glock, because the limiting factor in shot to shot speed is the need to aim. The glock trigger resets after only a few sixteenths of an inch, and flicking your finger back and forth rapidly will cause the gun to discharge with amazing speed, but of course you will see the first bullet strike the bullseye, the second hit the top of the paper and the third fly off into the sky.

Further more,the glock is specially designed to make conversion difficult, and the parts glock makes can only fit one model of pistol (glock 18).

The easiest handgun to convert to full auto is the 1911. A little filing on the sear and the hammer will follow the slide causing the gun to run away. Almost no one would do this intentionally, because the gun runs through its 8 rounds so fast you hardly even have time to crap yourself. It does occasionally happen inadvertently in older guns that have had shoddy trigger work done.

It always amazes my that this kind of propaganda is excepted by so many people who should know better, especially the Police officers who Carry, mostly glocks.
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
38. Jay Leno had a Glock 18 on Tonight Show Friday....nt
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IronHorseman Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-05 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
39. Full-Auto Conversions
Looks like a good way to end up in jail.

Glock Selective Fire System
Address:http://www.autoglock.com / Changed:3:30 PM on Sunday, March 6, 2005
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-05 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Site looks like a BATFE sting operation to me
If the product works, it would be illegal to manufacture or transfer one without treating it as a machinegun.

I'm not willing to risk going to prison to find out.
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IronHorseman Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-05 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. That`s what I thougt too.
They originaly had them for Beretta/Taurus too.
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