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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 07:01 AM
Original message
The New “Islamophobia”
During a trip I met a female American tourist. It was the time of hostage taking of Western tourists in the Philippines by members of Islamist commando Abu-Sayaf. This young lady asked me if I was feeling responsible… I didn’t understand what she wanted to insinuate. Responsible for what and for whom? She then explained to me: “as a Muslim, you should feel responsible for what your coreligionists commit. It seems normal, specially for someone sensible.” I had a very hard time believing what I was hearing. I, the Iranian child of the Middle East, living thousands of kilometers away from Philippines, and frankly having no knowledge of this country, should feel responsible (this is nothing to take lightly) about what Abu-Sayaf was committing there in the name of Islam. Regardless of who I am or what my beliefs are. My being born Muslim should be enough to engage my person and my responsibility.

-Yes, I feel responsible, I replied. This seemed to satisfy her, she was surely thinking that she was having a sensible Muslim as a rare specimen in front of her.

-And you, do you feel responsible? I asked her. She frowned; she didn’t seem to grasp my question. Responsible for what? She asked me in turn.

-Of what your coreligionists committed indeed, Inquisition, Crusades, the Saint-Bartholomew massacre, colonization, genocides, slavery, serfdom, Napoleonian Wars, First World War, Holocaust, the 60 million of human casualties of the Second World War, atomic bomb, Vietnam, and the assassination of Iraq, to cite only the most atrocious.

<snip>

We are well and truly living the new Islamophobia. On both sides of the Atlantic, demagogic voices, terrifying of violence scourge Islam, the so-called Islamic civilization, and Muslims. These voices dangerously recall anti-Semitic lampoons of late 19th Century or even Mussolini and Hitler’s racist discourses. It makes one believe that the world retains no historical lessons.


http://www.countercurrents.org/hr-ebrahimi140803.htm


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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. blame
To blame all Muslems for terrorism bigoted. Islam has been taken over by fanatics. The only blame is the vast (and I do believe vast) majority of Muslems who truly want peace and to live in the 21st C but do not speak out against fanatics.
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NewGuy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. This continues to be a good argument, however,...
I was very disturbed by the pictures and video of widespread muslim celebrations as the twin towers collapsed. The Muslem society really does differ from ours and many Muslem people, who were not actively involved in the attack, felt a certain joy in seeing a Christian nation damaged.

We cannot pretend that the Muslem terror situation is an anomaly when it involves 100's of thousands, or possibly millions, of Muslems attempting to kill Jewish and Christian people.

This may be something I am forever prevented from understanding. Like the experience of joy among black men and women that I saw when the OJ Simpson verdict was announced and I happened to be in a large retail store in the Midwest. I have never seen that type of reaction for an acquittal or a conviction in any other circumstance. But if we cannot understand these things we will have a terrible time trying to control and end them.


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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That was a very small number of Muslims...
celebrating in a very small area.

The propaganda value was enormous, but Muslims I know were appalled by that act. I have heard reports from others travelling through the Muslim world who heard nothing but sadness and sympathy over it.

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NewGuy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I saw footage from...
the palestinians, Iraq, and Iran and heard news stories of US Muslims being pleased. Later aas official Muslim views began to come out they were overwhelmingly sympathetic.
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durutti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Disagree
In your first paragraph, I assume you're referring to the Palestinians "celebrating" after the towers fell. These were children; they dance in the street whenever there are foreigners with cameras around.

Palestinians also held vigils in rememberance of those who died that night. Not that the American media reported it...

But let's assume for a minute that they were celebrating the attacks.

Don't you remember how Americans celebrated when U.S. forces were bombing water treatment plants in Iraq? When the U.S. government was directing mercenaries to kill thousands in South America? When U.S. forces were dropping napalm on children in Vietnam? When the U.S. dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Or how about how some Americans champion people like Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh?

The unfortunate fact is that all cultures dehumanize their enemies. It isn't exclusive to the Muslim world.



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rini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Actually
they were adults dancing around and firing rifles in the air to express their joy. The children were there to learn.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. yeah, right..
and like you would have gave a damn one way or another or even paid much attention if his wife was black. Pot meet kettle.

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NewGuy Donating Member (305 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. That was my point
I actually did not care one way or the other. This was one of hundreds of murders that year and it took place 2000 miles from me. My point was that I was surprised to see that a lot of blacks did care despite having no more 'dog in this fight' than I did.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. ah..
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 03:22 PM by StandWatie
I think that had much more to do with sexual politics than racism.

I don't want to get into it but I have a number of statisical reasons and gut instincts that lead me to believe that black women didn't come out so strong because OJ was black or that she was white but because she was a white woman with a black man. That still sounds like it's race but it's deeper than that.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 08:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Yr doing exactly what the article was talking about...
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 08:39 AM by Violet_Crumble
We cannot pretend that the Muslem terror situation is an anomaly when it involves 100's of thousands, or possibly millions, of Muslems attempting to kill Jewish and Christian people.

So, where are these hundreds of thousands, or possibly millions of Muslims who are attempting to kill Jewish and Christian people? There is no way the numbers of those in terrorist organisations would be anywhere near that high...

I was very disturbed by the pictures and video of widespread muslim celebrations as the twin towers collapsed. The Muslem society really does differ from ours and many Muslem people, who were not actively involved in the attack, felt a certain joy in seeing a Christian nation damaged.

Widespread muslim celebrations? I assume when you use the word widespread, yr actually referring to widespread and not a handful of people. And to claim that those who did find something to celebrate did so only out of religious reasons is pretty whiffy. Do you think that just maybe these people who are victims of US foreign policy might have not so much have been celebrating the deaths but celebrating the fact that finally the consequences of US foreign policy had finally come home to roost where it belonged? Maybe to these people folk who died in the attacks in the US were as distant to them as all the civilians who've died as a result of US aggression have been to Americans. I'm not Muslim, but apart from being shocked when I saw the biggest fuck-you of all time happening on telly right in front of my eyes, I remember thinking that the US had finally gotten some payback for decades of fucked up foreign policy. If I was living somewhere where that policy was making my life unbearable, I would have possibly been out dancing in the streets too...

Violet...





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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. that's the dirty secret about 9/11
There were a bunch of places all over the world that didn't exactly cry their eyes out about the whole thing and the majority that thought we sort of had it coming wasn't Muslim.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. While a lot of people thought that we had it coming...
they still were upset about it.

Consider this. You see this country terrorizing countries in the ME and South America for decades. Would you cry your eyes out anymore for them than for the countries that they had been terrorizing for years?
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sushi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #2
16. I was disturbed too
You know what else disturbs me? To see so many Americans happy and supportive of the recent wars (Afghanistan and Iraq) that have killed thousands of people. I suppose calling it "collateral damage" makes it okay. This term should be banned. It's people. Thousand of PEOPLE have died or been maimed for life as a result of bombs dropped from the safety of the sky.
I just tell myself that there are ignorant people everywhere.

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Noon_Blue_Apples Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. More hypocrisy

Speaking out against 'Judaists' lately
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. I don't see other people of religion speaking out against fanatics.
I don't see Jews speaking out against the Jewish Defense League or Jews who are bigoted in the name of Zionism.

I don't see Christians speaking out against the abortion clinic bombings and other forms of their terrorism.

How is Islam different?

BTW, it has been spoken out against off and on.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 03:40 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. You DON'T see Jews speaking out?
Or Christians, for that matter? Actually, many on both sides do.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Okay, maybe I'm wrong about how I say this stuff....
I do see a few Jews criticizing Israeli policy and the Jewish Defense League. I do see a few Christians criticizing abortion doctor killers.

However, most of them probably feel like Christian and Jew isn't equated with this type of behavior anyway, so they don't feel so much of a need to be so vocal about it. Islam is the same way. The majority of Muslims in the world would never kill another person, so they don't feel a need to "be responsible" for all terrorism.
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mecca Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-21-03 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. The hidden hand
Edited on Thu Aug-21-03 03:14 PM by mecca
That people like the young American tourist do not see is Israel and America's war against mostly Muslim populations. America wants the oil, Israel wants the land. But they can't have it without waging war against the Muslims who are there. The fundamentalist Muslims who are being attacked by Israel and America end up believing that these wars are religious wars, so they turn to violence, just like any other right-wing fundamentalist from other societies does. The media propaganda in America and Israel then loudly cries out about the Muslim fundamentalists, because they need to justify their wars against the Muslims who own the land and the oil. The whole thing is very complex.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. So are saying terrorism is a reaction?
Edited on Thu Aug-28-03 02:04 AM by fujiyama
That's a cliched response, and also ignores the complexity of the situation -- and it's an easy way out. It ignores the fact that Islamic societies are in a state of crisis right now, and there is a large, yes large part of the muslim world that hates others.

Islamic terrorism isn't a localized conflict against Jews and Christians. It is a conflict that spans the entire globe.

While, it is true there are fundamentalist and violent factions of every religion, most don't have the global reach Islamic terrorism has.

Is it just coincidence that so many of the conflicts taking place globally are between Islamists and other groups (notice I use Islamists, not Muslims)? Is it truely possible the "other side" is always responsible?

While there have been wrongs commited against Islamic nations in the past (wars, coups, support for brutal dictatorships, etc), these wrongs have also been commited by the US against people all over the world -- Latin America, Asia, etc... Yet, I don't see Vietnamese people flying jets into skyscrapers.

If this is just about oil and land, why do so many Pakistanis hate us? Why do Kuwaitis have such a low opinion of the US? Why do so many other gulf nations hate us so much?

These nations have never been invaded by the US. Some of these listed above may have oil, but the US buys it from them, as do many nations all over the world. Some of those nations have very high living standards because of their oil. In some cases the US supported them with billions of dollars in aid (such Pakistan which is a big beneficiary of American aid). Israel has not tried to invade these countries. Also while anger is understandable at some of Israel's policies, Israel's policies do not effect Pakistan, SA, or any Gulf States directly in any way.

Islamic socities must seperate their religious beliefs from their political ones, otherwise it will lead to more violence. "Jihad" has lost any other meaning for non Muslims other than holy war.

That said, I do sympathize with ordinary Muslims. I will admit that it's difficult to speak up against fanatacism, especially when that fanaticism threatens themselves in the process. Yet, it is still in their best interest to condemn terrorism absolutely, without buts, and without talks of exaggerated oppression. Tolerance, the rule of law, and the seperation of religion from those laws is what will bring peace to this world. While these things are important for all nations and peoples, it is especially important for the Muslim world, otherwise the backlash from everyone else will undoubtably be even worse, claiming millions of lives.
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Jackie97 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-23-03 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
14. I have to make a small correction.
The atomic bomb was built partially by an atheist named Einestein. That was completely a Christian invention (if it was at all).

Another misunderstanding is that if a person spoke harshy about Jews, that her book would not be published. YES, IT WOULD. There are different levels of anti-semitism in the U.S., and a lot of it isn't considered anti-semitism at all. For example, the American anti-choice group, Human Life International blames Jews for the "new holocaust" of abortion. They also preach hate towards Muslims. They're very well tolerated because none of it's considered bigotry by many.

Now, here's something to think about.

"In this country, even the evocation of an eventual Palestinian people and their sufferings is politically incorrect and can result in your being a participant of anti-Semitism and subsequently of anti-Americanism. "

Lately, I've been being quite whenever a conservative fusses at a liberal for being "politically correct" and the liberal takes offense at people who don't like political correctness. What neither side understands at all is that Political Correctness is nothing more than what's considered to be politically okay by certain liberals in a country. The truth is that it IS Politically incorrect to not be for Israeli or American foreign policy. So now, I'll say what many conservatives say. I won't bow down to Political Correctness.
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StandWatie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-25-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. excellent observation
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Okay, I'll nitpick...
Einstein did not help build the atomic bomb. Nor was he an atheist.
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drdon326 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-28-03 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. THE MAGNIFICIENT 19
http://www.almuk.com/obm/pr/2003/911.html

"Almost two years on from September the 11th 2001 the world embraces itself for another anniversary. Many Muslims worldwide will be celebrating the comeuppance of the USA in what they see as retribution for the atrocities that the US has committed, and indeed continues to commit, against Muslims."

CELEBRATING..... :puke:
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-03 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. It's easy to see you didn't read the thread...
But thanks for popping in and doing exactly what the author of the article was talking about. If someone were to post the same volume of articles as you do, but instead of being critical of Muslims, they were critical of Jews, wouldn't you have a problem with that? So why do you do it to Muslims?

btw, it wasn't just Muslims 'celebrating' September 11. And if you can't understand why for some people 'celebrating' was pretty easy to do after the much more grotesque 'celebration' by the US of acts of terror carried out on the populations of other nations, then I can sit here and explain it to you till you get it....

Violet...
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bpilgrim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-03 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
25. i am disgusted that these racist are not challenged and often PROMOTED
by the media.

it fits with a pattern we have seen throughout time to demonize are enimies. i had thought that we had learned so much by now, 2003.

sadly, we haven't learned a thing and we will probably bring even more death and destruction than the two previous world wars when all is said and done.

but i still have hope in this age of rapid mass global communication and what we have seen before of extremist and their actions that as more come out of the woodwork even more will recognize them for what they really are a pox on all our houses.

thanks for sharing that article :toast:

peace
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