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Over Unity Device - More power output, than Input

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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 12:51 AM
Original message
Over Unity Device - More power output, than Input
Next we move to a unit with its motor connected to a generator. What we see is striking. The meters showed an input to the stator electromagnets of approximately 1.8 volts and 150mA input, and from the generator, 9.144 volts and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and 9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W out.

<snip>

The magnetic motor will be cheaper than a standard motor to make, as the rotor and stator assemblies can be set into plastic housings, due to the fact that the system creates very little heat. Further, with the motor's energy efficiency, it will be well suited for any application where a motor has limited energy to drive it. While development is still focused on replacing existing devices, Minato says that his motor has sufficient torque to power a vehicle.

With the help of magnetic propulsion, it is feasible to attach a generator to the motor and produce more electric power than was put into the device. Minato says that average efficiency on his motors is about 330 percent.

Mention of Over Unity devices in many scientific circles will draw icy skepticism. But if you can accept the idea that Minato's device is able to create motion and torque through its unique, sustainable permanent magnet propulsion system, then it makes sense that he is able to get more out of the unit than he puts in in terms of elctrical power. Indeed, if the device can produce a surplus of power for longer periods, every household in the land will want one.

More <http://japan.com/technology/index.php >
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Senjutsu Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ugh
Third time today I've seen this nonsense.

Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
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fearnobush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Be careful, One day you may fall off the face of our flat Earth.
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Senjutsu Donating Member (56 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. The real threat is from the UFOs
They're leaving their messages in crop circles everywhere.

Seriously, if "Minato says that average efficiency on his motors is about 330 percent." doesn't set your bullshit meter off, you need to take it in for a tune-up. Not to mention the fact that he's trying to measure the input power using a multimeter when the current drain isn't constant.

But hey, it's got magnets in it, so it's apparently magic.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. It's depressing how often the laws of thermodynamics are voided here. n/t
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leftistagitator Donating Member (701 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
2. That sounds a little too close to a perpetual motion machine to me.
They're talking about this over at slashdot too. I tend to agree with them, he's either a fraud or the greatest genius of our age, and I'm inclined to believe the former. We'll find out soon enough.
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Boomer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. Hoax buster reference
The Basement Mechanic's Guide to Testing Perpetual Motion Machines

4. Magnet Motors.
Current serious designs for PMM are seldom purely mechanical. That approach has been fruitless for so many centuries that many inventors conclude there's nothing new there to be discovered. Nearly all of those devices were variations of overbalanced wheels.
Magnet-motors are all the rage these days. But even folks who have had physics and engineering courses are often deficient in understanding of magnetic fields and magnetic materials.

Motors and generators are electromagnetic machines, and electrical engineers have had long experience with them. Moving magnets and wires moving in a magnetic field continually radiate electromagnetic fields, and these can cause interference with nearby electronic equipment such as telephone, radio and television sets. Such interfering radiation can propagate directly as fields, or can be conducted over power lines. Commercial motors are designed to minimize these problems, are housed within partially shielding enclossures, and often have capacitave-inductive filters to reduce interference with other equipment.

The experimenter's PMM magnet motor, however, is usually exposed and unshielded, without any attention given to designing it to minimize electromagnetic radiation. The output wave form is far from sinusoidal, and induction effects may modify the input wave form as well. These wave forms contain abrupt discontinuities and even sharp pulses and spikes, which simple electrical meters can't respond to properly. The radiated fields may affect the meter's circuitry directly. The output likely has a considerable phase angle between current and voltage. For these reasons, electrical meters can give false readings.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/test-pm.htm
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Waistdeep Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
6. This is total crap
Any physicist or engineer can tell you that you don't calculate power by multiplying the voltage and current when alternating or pulsed currents are involved.

This is dishonest hucksterism at its worst. Minato has been selling variations of the same theme for years.

I can't believe people fall for this year after year. Conservation of energy is pretty damned basic and is hardly going to be undermined by clever magnet tricks.

There was a previous DU thread on this here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-16-04 09:23 PM
Response to Original message
7. Let's pretend over-unity DOES work
One watt in, two watts out, right?

If all this energy is being tapped from the ether, than our energy growth can continue without limits. Here's a trivial exercise for people who are good at calculus (which excludes me): Assume the Earth uses ONE GIGAWATT of power per second right now (which is probably a very low figure) and that power raises the Earth's temperature one-billionth of a Kelvin in one second. How long will it take, at a constant 3.0% per annum energy use growth rate, to generate enough waste heat to turn 4 sextillion metric tons of granite and 2 sextillion metric tons of iron into their liquid phases? Gas phases? Exlosive decomposition?

Mind you, I'm not writing off the possibility of over-unity energy generation. But I sincerely hope we don't develop them until we learn how to better manage our energy use.

Math and Physics geeks, are you with me on this?

--bkl
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Waistdeep Donating Member (469 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. The math and physics geeks all left the room
when the first law of thermodynamics was ignored.

There is probably no more basic foundation for physics, chemistry and biology than the law of conservation of energy. Never, and I repeat, never have there been experiments which show violations of this law. There may be phenomena at the cosmological or subatomic level which are not completely understood, but conservation of energy will be the last thing tossed out the window.

Minato's work doesn't pass any reasonable smell test and has the same structure as many other, sometimes well-meaning hoaxes such as perpetual motion machines or magic carburetors which allow automobiles to run on water instead of gasoline.

My bet is on the millions of historical confirmatory experiments for conservation of energy as opposed to a clever stageshow. Minato's claims of greater than 100% efficiency and that no accepted laws of physics are violated are nonsense as any physicist will be able to tell you. He either does not understand how to properly measure power out/power in or he is deliberately falsifying his demonstrations.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-17-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Um ... I'm not arguing for Minato, or even OU
He's also jumped on the same bench before, and his deficiencies in understanding physics are well-known.

The same kind of crap hit the fan in the 1920s-1950s over atomic energy. Every time some DIY savant felt the itch of a wild hair, the word "atomic" was trotted out. The terms "zero-point", "scalar" and "over-unity" are currently being worked like five-dollar whores on account of interesting new developments in cosmology.

My point was simply this -- I DON'T want to see any kind of tapping into the Universal Spooge until we have learned how to deal properly with terrestrial, domestic energy use AND have developed an industrial presence in space. Otherwise, we'd be like a beehive that somehow built a kerosene heater right inside the hive.

Result? One big sweet, steaming, sticky, lethal mess.

--bkl
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AbsolutMauser Donating Member (27 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Ringworld
An interesting fictional account of such a waste heat problem may be found in the Ringworld novels. One of the alien species managed to escape it's use of polluting power creation by way of fusion and some other fictional power systems. Then they heated up their planet with waste heat alone. Of course, their solution was to move the planet farther from the sun...

At any rate, Minato is either a confidence man or a looney. Or both.

~AbM
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treepig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-20-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. here's a handy reference site
http://physics.syr.edu/courses/modules/ENERGY/ENERGY_PO...

from which, if i read it correctly, the usa alone uses 10,000 more power than you postulate (i.e., 10e13 watts).

however, incoming solar power is yet another 10,000 greater (i.e., 10e17 watts).


so, based on your reasoning (if i'm following at all correctly) there should already have been plenty of energy reaching the earth to melt it many times over (the incident solar energy dwarfs any man-made uses).

the key, of course, is how much heat irradiates back into space - and hence the "greenhouse" gases become important. therefore, the amount of energy used here on earth is largely irrelevant to considerations of the "extreme global warming" issues you're raising (once again, if i at all understand your point).


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