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So how's Arnold's "Hydrogen Highway" coming along?

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 02:24 PM
Original message
So how's Arnold's "Hydrogen Highway" coming along?
Edited on Sun Aug-20-06 02:27 PM by NNadir
In a bid to be able to drive his Hummer even further - being one of the two or three people on the entire planet to own a private hydrogen Hummer, Arnold Schwarzenegger stopped groping long enough, in 2004 to announce a hydrogen highway by 2010.

Now, it my opinion that these prepositional phrases beginning with "by," are intended mostly to allow people to avoid reality for a few weeks, to distract attention from what they're really doing.

Hydrogen, because of it's low critical temperature, low viscosity, and the nature of its invisibly burning flame is completely absurd as a motor fuel - not that the term "completely ridiculous" means all that much in energy conversations, given the kinds of things one hears these days.

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63145,00.html

But the steroid crazed Governor is used to getting away with things: His audience, in general, is known for suspending its fondness for reality. And so he has announced a $90 million dollar "hydrogen highway" so he, and the other two people in California who have hydrogen fueled vehicles can drive a longer distance than one fill up will provide.

Well, we're more than two years down the road on the promise that was supposed to involve a six year time line.

The progress on this project is what? Does anybody know? Is it just another all talk and little action promise or has ground been broken, have contracts been signed, plants and pipelines constructed? Has a renewable source for the hydrogen been developed or is it the plan to run a few trucks from a natural gas fueled reformer? If the latter is the case, does the Governor plan to store the CO2 generated from hydrogen production in a big balloon dragged down the "hydrogen highway" by his big Hummer? Finally, has Governor Hydrogen Hummer announced the price of this hydrogen? Have tens of thousands of orders for hydrogen fueled vehicles been announced or will it be enough if there is just the Governor's hydrogen hummer and two Ford Escorts with giant fuel tanks in their trunks?

What about safety training? Any of that going on?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. Here you go
http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/sb76/sb76.htm

<snip>

On July 21, 2005, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed Senate Bill 76 (SB 76) that provided the necessary funding and legislative guidelines to implement recommendations of the CA H2 Net Blueprint Plan. SB 76 is a budget trailer bill that provides $6.5 million in funding for state-sponsored hydrogen demonstration projects until January 1, 2007. The funds may be used for co-funding the establishment of up to three hydrogen fueling station demonstration projects and the State lease and purchase of a variety of hydrogen fueled vehicles.

<more>

The awards have been made for both the hydrogen fuel stations and vehicles...

And the rest of the OP is nonsense.

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. A whole "three hydrogen fueling station"s?
Yes sir I am now a convert to arnoldism! How many H-fuel stations would it take to actually make it viable to own and operate an H-fuel car, ignoring of course the absurd costs involved?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. SB 76 (The HH bill) would not have passed without Democratic support
It is not an "Ahhnold" thing.

This is the first phase of the program and it's only one of several programs advancing alternative automotive fuels is California.

Absurd cost??? When will the cost of the alternative fuel (gasoline) become absurd???

I personally do not think that hydrogen vehicles are going to play a significant role in future personal transportation - but for essential services (police, ambulance and other emergency vehicles) and public transit in areas not served by electric rail systems, they will find their niche.

But to do that, they need the essential infrastructure (like hydrogen filling stations).

Here's some FAQs about California's Hydrogen Highway program...

http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/facts/faq/faq.htm

and finally, after the next election cycle, Ahhhnold will be known as the former governor of California, but the HH program will continue long after he's gone.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Given the many brazillion hydrogen vehicles, there must be lines.
On the other hand, if the only customer is Arnold and his hydrogen Hummer, I'll bet the attendant's job is real easy. She only has to come to work once or twice a week.

Of course, Arnold's hydrogen Hummer is big enough, maybe to be that 10% of the ZEV's the California legislature promised us by 2003 way back in 1990, at least if one measures 10% by total car mass.

I may be wrong, but IIRC, 10% ZEV's by 2003 was made during the wonderful governorship of George Dukemejian, I think.

Not to worry. California is promising to reduce it's greenhouse gases by 25% by 2020. I'm sure Arnold and friends will be there to take credit when this succeeds through the agency of a brazillion solar roofs and a brazillion hydrogen stations to go with them.

I wonder if this outstanding program made Arnold more popular?
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. This is the first year of the program
Edited on Sun Aug-20-06 04:45 PM by jpak
and here are the goals...

http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/facts/faq/faq.htm#pla...

<snip>

A three-phased approach has been established to implement the CA H2 Net. The goal of the CA H2 Net is to deploy Phase I, which is 50-100 hydrogen stations and 2,000 hydrogen-powered vehicles by 2010. Phases II and III will be achieved at an accelerated pace as determined appropriate through biennial technology and market reviews. This phased approach ensures that the CA H2 Net is implemented in a way that makes sense for technology readiness, the environment and the economy.

<snip>

And there will be a brazillion solar roofs in California by 2012. The CA PUC program is way oversubscribed and exceeded its targets in the first three months of the program.

It's going to create thousands of good paying new jobs. Homeowners taking part in that program will have significantly reduced electric bills (and increase the value of their homes) and it will result in significant reductions in GHG emissions.

How many nuclear plants are they building in California???

Zero (but who's counting anyway)





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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-20-06 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. I am all for the solar roofs.
Too bad the fed withdrew its subsidy programs. But H2-fuel is not viable right now, and not because of the lack of infrastructure. Until the extraction issues are resolved I will remain way skeptical of H2 programs.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. It's not viable because of the chicken-egg dilemma
Auto manufacturers need H-fuel infrastructure if they are going to sell H2-fuel cell cars.

And H-fuel distributors need H2-autos so they can sell their H2.

The Hydrogen Highway program is a partnership between government and industry to share the ground-floor financial risks of developing H2 infrastructure and autos.

Like any new technology that has not taken advantage of economies of scale, H2 is expensive - no one denies that.

This program is seed money to launch the industry. It's not an open-ended commitment either. After Phase 1 is completed in 2010, the program will be reviewed before proceeding to Phase 2 and 3 (the really large scale deployment phases).

Once this little bird has fledged, it's gonna have to leave the nest and fly on its own...

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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. I'm sorry but I missed the part where H2 extraction
did not require more energy input that you get back as output. Until that problem is solved there isn't much point to it.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Sorry - you miss the point
Using solar or wind to produce H2 by electrolysis (85% efficient) and using it for fuel cell applications (60-85% efficiencies = total system efficiencies ~60%) is a much better option than the alternative (which is fossil fuel depletion).

Converting energy from one form to another always has a thermodynamic cost. Wind and solar energy, however, are "free" - capturing that energy and converting it efficiently into a form that can be stored, transported and used for automotive fuel (and electricity and heat and ammonia fertilizer production) is entirely feasible and economically desirable.

That's the ultimate goal of the program - I don't see any problem with that.



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Oerdin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. That's retarded.
$6.5 million is chump change when even the politicians have said it will cost over $90 BILLION. The politicians always low ball the price tags as well so expect the real cost of any project which is actually built to be much higher. Luckily there never will be anything built because 1/3 of the way through the project they have spent a grand total of $6.5 million or less then 0.00000001% of the proposed cost.

This is nothing more then Bush's claim that we'll be going to Mars in 15 years. These projects were never intended to become reality. They're just massive proposals which politicians periodically float to get headlines during election years then they get ignored and are later killed off. That jpak hasn't figured this out by his age says something about jpak.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-21-06 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Gee - I learn something new about myself every day around here.
**yawn**
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