GM has FINALLY gotten serious about their latest Hydrogen Car!

[Up2Late]

They had a story on CNN/Headline News (in the every 1/2 hour late-night/early morning loop) where they let CNN's John King be the first person, outside of GM, to drive GM's latest Hydrogen Fuel Cell powered Car, the "Sequel."

O.K., it only took them over 18 months to take this big step (the Sequel was shown at the January 2005 Detroit Auto Show), but at least they did do it.

The Three most important improvements GM made with the Sequel, I think, are:

1) They Improved the range to about 300 miles per refueling

2) They didn't give it a STUPID name like the last one, the HY-Wire (much too close to Haywire)

3) They went back to using the standard, two pedal design (Accelerator/Brake) for acceleration and braking instead of the ridiculous hand controls they said "...people would just have to adjust to..." when they showed off the Hy-wire.

After looking though the GM web site (link below), I get the feeling that GM is not nearly as far behind as they have making it sound like lately.

Here are some links to look at, I haven't found the CNN video on-line yet, but I thought I let you all know about it:

<http://www.carlist.com/autonews/2005/autonews_45.html>

<http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/103626/page045.html>

<http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_tech/400_fcv/index.html>

[AX10]

1. The question is, will GM bring the car to market?

[Up2Late]

6. They claim they are shooting for 2010 for this car and 2014-2016...

for the next generation.

I think they finally see the writing on the wall, and know it's time to get serious.

[democracyindanger]

2. But it means nothing

without a fuel distribution network, which BMW realized is a key component and has been working on for at least half a dozen years.

I have exactly ZERO faith that an American auto manufacturer will be the first one to introduce a hydrogen car (and fuel network).

[Up2Late]

4. If you read the first link from "car connection" you will see that...

... re-fueling stations are being worked on too, by other companies and GM partners too.

Try to keep in mind, the Gasoline powered car was a local use vehicle too when it was first introduced.

And where do we need a zero emission vehicles most? In the major cities! Which is where you will first find local re-fueling stations.

[NNadir]

7. I hope no auto manufacturer ever introduces a hydrogen car.

I really don't get the point.

[iconoclastNYC]

25. In some parts of the country it might make sense

Use your home electricity to crack water into hydrogen. Not sure about efficiencies but if you had really cheap electricity (or free via solar or wind on site generation) you shoulnd't need to refuel anywhere else. Most people drive less then 300 miles daily.

Of course in NYC with electricty at 20cents per kwH that probably won't do. Of couse we take the subway here anyway.

[Kolesar]

26. Rifkin seemed to be hinting that homeowners could make hydrogen

from electricity (as you describe) in "The Hydrogen Economy". He did not give enough technical details in that chapter for me to figure that out. It all seems pretty far fetched to me.

[ClassWarrior]

3. Reminds me of the movie just out, "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

I haven't seen it yet, but from what I heard about it, GM is an enemy of energy-efficient transportation.

NGU.

[Up2Late]

5. Yes, they are definitely dragging their feet on this...

...but in less than 5 years, when Honda and Toyota have Hydrogen Fuel-cell cars on the American roads, they are going to suddenly realize that they need to ramp up production or they are History.

[Redstone]

8. Ahem. What are they going to use to generate the electricity to

make the hydrogen? Unless it's hydro or solar, the whoe thing is LESS than a zero-sum game.

If they have to burn coal to make the electricity to make the hydrogen to run the hydrogen cars...have any of the hydrogen-car enthusuasts thought about this?

Redstone

[kestrel91316]

9. Well here in the SW US we have plenty of solar power potential.

WAYYYYY too much hot sun for MY tastes.

[Redstone]

10. There's a start then, isn't there? Electtricity for the cars, and

shade for you!

Redstone

[NNadir]

11. Lots of water too, I bet. And lots of money.

Lots of land we know about. At 100% efficiency - which of course we must always assume since solar power is magic - 50 horse power at a 1300W/m² peak is only 29 m². This means that if there are 20 million cars in California, we can power them with only 529 square km, ignoring things like efficiency.

That sounds eminently doable, especially if we put little 20 watt solar cells right on the roofs of the cars themselves. And don't worry, there's always going to be a brazillion solar roofs in California as well, always by next year.

That's such a wonderful piece of news, one wonders why no one ever thought of it before.

I note that the infrastructure demand won't be too difficult. Steroidal Governor Hydrogen Hummer Boy already has his own hydrogen station. Therefore you'll only need to build a brazillion-1.

[Up2Late]

14. Here's you solar panel kit for you car today, how many you want?

<http://www.solatecllc.com/products.htm>



Add another 2 "racing stripes" and it probably would have made the EV1 almost completely Green.

Or we can just stop trying, ignore the problem and hope the problem just goes away. It's your choice.

[NNadir]

15. And the energy associated with those stripes is what?

I've seen these things, always posted with breathless "it's your choice," crap.

Anyone who things that the solution to energy and the environment is a few stripes on a hybrid is probably not thinking too deeply about the subject.

It says right on the link that the system produces 30 "watts" meaning peak power at noon on a bright sunny day. Do you happen to have an idea of the energy content of a gallon of gasoline?

I have to say this often, but neither global climate change nor energy shortfalls can be solved by wishful thinking.

[Up2Late]

17. Well at least I am thinking.

That's more than I can say for what you are doing.

[NNadir]

18. Yes I'm quite sure that I do very little thinking about energy.

In about 6 years of not thinking about energy, I've seen about 50 pictures of that racing stripe, always offered to me by people who are "thinking," while I'm not.

This explains quite clearly why I am aware of the amount of energy in a gallon of gasoline, because I never think about the subject.

Of course, if we let other people "think" for us, and they are clueless, we risk buying into a happy horseshit daydream that is the precise equivalent of doing nothing.

[Ready4Change]

21. I think the stripes are flexible pv panels.

They've been in existence for a while now. They don't provide a lot of power. (As the ad says, 30 watts. As you say, 30 watts peak.) Would have been better to cover the whole roof, and the hood. Still, with the power demanded by a car, they'll extend the milage a bit, but they won't make it a pure electric.

The could go all sport tuner on it. Give it one of those huge rear wings. But instead of providing downforce, it could provide more horizontal space for more panels. :)

[Up2Late]

13. God, you are sooooo 20th Century! Fuel Cells generate Electricity!

Hydrogen doesn't take huge amounts of electricity to generate, Solar cells, Wind Power, Methane (that is usually just vented into the atmosphere) from your local Land fill, all those can easily start the cycle.

And it's not like there is no compressed or liquid Hydrogen to get the Fuel cells going, and depending on which type of system you choose, you can have several different levels of efficiency.

Choose a closed system, that only needs the water changed every so often. It's not that difficult.

Do some reading, it's really not that difficult, it just take the will to do it.

You have the OP links, here are a few more:

<http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/fuel-cell-buses.asp#trial>

<http://www.hydrogenics.com/>

<http://www.hydrogenics.com/power/products.asp>

<http://www.hydrogenics.com/onsite/applications.building.asp>

<http://www.fuel-cell-bus-club.com/index.php?module=pagesetter&func=viewpub&tid=1&pid=2>

<http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=SiteMap2/category_id=2>

<http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/sunline_transit.html>

There is plenty of info out there, you just have to go look for it.

Plus, I'm talking about the GM Car, which is 4 or more years away!

Stick to the topic (The Car).

If you want to start a discussion on another thread about how you think that Americans are not clever enough to figure out this relatively simple problem, be my guest, but that's not the topic here.

[Porcupine]

24. Um, don't those fuel cells cost about ten times what batteries do?

to provide the same amount of energy to the actual motor. Just asking.

How many service hours does one get out of a fuel cell?

I mean, right now I know a bunch of high school kids can make a hybrid car from a chassis and some off the shelf parts for $100k. Several people have made them for much, much less.

http://news.uns.purdue.edu/html4ever/2005/050510.Agrawal.fuelcells.html

"A fuel-cell car built with today's technology would cost about $250,000, but you would have no place to fill up the tank,"

Meanwhile a guy is ready to produce these electric sports cars:
He used to work for GM. But they killed their electric car line.
http://www.acpropulsion.com/default.htm

So why would we need hydrogen technology that seems about as far away as the flying car and fusion power? We can make battery/electric cars with off the shelf tech and infrastructure.

I thing the "Hydrogen Future" is as much of a scam as the flex-fuel bs.

[sam sarrha]

12. hydrogen car isn't the problem, it is an engine that makes the hydrogen

because H2 will NEVER be economically produced as a distributed product.. it takes more energy to produce than it is worth

[Up2Late]

16. NO.

Anyone who tells you it takes an "Engine" to produce Hydrogen hasn't got a clue what they are talking about.

Sorry, I'm not going to waste my Friday night walking all you pessimists though the last 10 years of Hydrogen technology advances.

Here's a link to a LOT of good links, plus all the links I provided above: http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Hydrogen/

[hatrack]

20. Sorry, recognizing thermodynamic principles doesn't equal "pessimism"

Oh, and by the way, "freeenergynews" doesn't exactly resound with the ring of truth.

"Free" energy - oh really?

[sam sarrha]

23. COAL or nuclear plants is the ripoff.. will cost more

[brokensymmetry]

19. Oh, joy.

Now we're saved.

:sarcasm:

[Odin2005]

22. Hydrogen won't be a usefull large-scale fuel untill we have Fusion