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FormerRepublican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 11:30 AM
Original message
Anybody know the scoop on NEVs? I have a Toyota Corolla that gets...
...a verified 40 mpg when I don't run the AC or heater. I thought about getting a hybrid, but after looking at the mpg stats, I'm not sure it would be worth the expense. Anybody know the emissions comparisons between a Corolla (non-hybrid) and a hybrid high mpg?

I've been thinking seriously about getting an electric vehicle for shorter jaunts and just using my car for longer trips. My car won't like that since it complains when I don't drive it on a regular basis, but I love the idea of getting off the gas pump for run around town type things. I've been looking at both scooters and NEVs. There are a few electric scooters that will go higher speeds, which I thought might make them easier to run on the highway and thus I could go further distances. But the downside is that I can't pack them with a lot of cargo. I could get a motorcycle trailer, but I'm not sure how that might effect the handling and performance of an electric scooter.

I like the NEVs except they're very low speed vehicles, and thus are very limited as to where I can actually drive one. I wish I could find one that will run at higher speeds, runs further miles, and doesn't cost the earth.

Anyone have experience with hybrids and electric vehicles who might offer some advice?

I also SOOO want to put solar panels and possibly wind turbines on my house....! Expensive, though...

I might do the panels and wind turbine, and then buy an electric vehicle...

I appreciate any feedback from experienced DUers.

(Cross-posted from GD: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x956855)
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rwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. We need to get
the solar cells down to $.50 per watt.(They are currently approx., $10 per watt I think. I would like to start smaller by doing solar hot water for my home. I think this would really help on my electric bill as the electric hot water heater is the biggest user of electricity in the home.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Solar price tracker.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm

Solar hot water is the best place to start, though, you're right.

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rwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Thanks
for the good site. Ron
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dtotire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hybrid Autos Love My Hybrid, Even on the Highway (3 Letters)
These letters were in today's NY Times from hybrid owners. Apparently they are efficient if you don't speed.

Love My Hybrid, Even on the Highway (3 Letters)


Article Tools Sponsored By
Published: April 18, 2006

To the Editor:

Re "Life in the Green Lane," by Jamie Lincoln Kitman (Op-Ed, April 16), about the pros and cons of hybrid cars: In contrast to Mr. Kitman's portrayal, my Honda Civic Hybrid gets exceptional fuel economy on the highway if I drive "patiently."

I own both hybrid and nonhybrid Honda Civics. The nonhybrid gets 30 to 38 miles per gallon, doing much better with highway driving than in stop-and-go traffic.

But my hybrid does very well on the highway, as long as I keep the speed about 56 miles per hour. At this speed, I get 46 m.p.g. This is as good or better than my fuel economy with city driving.

But when the speed approaches 70 miles per hour, my fuel economy drops to about 39 to 40 m.p.g., barely better than my nonhybrid.

One feature that helps the Honda Civic and Toyota Prius hybrids in the city is that their engines quietly shut off when you come to a stop. It is remarkable how much gas is wasted at stoplights and in gridlock.

In Seattle, we joke that hybrids are the only cars that go below the speed limit.

Steven Short
Mercer Island, Wash., April 16, 2006


To the Editor:

Jamie Lincoln Kitman's assertion that some hybrid vehicles get worse gas mileage than their conventionally powered counterparts may well be true. But his claim that the Toyota Prius squeezes 40 or more miles out of a gallon of gas "only when it's being driven around town" has not been my experience.

I have driven my 2004 Prius more than 60,000 miles, almost all on the highway, and I reliably get 50 miles to the gallon (a bit less in the winter and when the car is fully loaded). It does the consumer and the environment a disservice to pooh-pooh the Prius.

Meanwhile, New York City should take to heart Mr. Kitman's statement that "hybrid taxis and buses make enormous sense."

David Tebaldi
Worthington, Mass., April 16, 2006


To the Editor:

Jamie Lincoln Kitman's April 16 Op-Ed article points clearly to the need for Congress to act before hybrid technology is corrupted.

If Congress were to raise the corporate average fuel economy, or CAFE, standards, the auto industry would receive a clear, unambiguous signal from our elected officials that this country is serious about kicking our addiction to oil.

Of course, maybe Congress believes that kicking our oil addiction is a political slogan, not a desired national policy.

Dudley Hafner
Santa Fe, N.M., April 16, 2006
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
3. do your homework
YOu might want to do some research before you buy. It's likely you wont' get the mileage benefit you are expecting - unless you use it mostly in city stop and go driving.

Consumer Reports did an excellent compariison of hybrids vs gasoline-only cars - the extra cost vs the savings.

The Whole evaluation of hybrids by Consumer Reports is here.

The whole report includes an update of the report stating in part (emphasis my own):

"The report has been revised because a calculation error involving projections for depreciation in the original, printed version led us to overstate how much extra money six hybrids will cost owners during the first five years, compared with owning similar all-gas models.

Our revised data show that if buyers are able to take advantage of limited federal tax credits, two hybrids--the Toyota Prius and the Honda Civic Hybrid--are projected to cost about $400 and $300 less, respectively. The other four--the Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Accord Hybrid, Lexus RX400h, and Toyota Highlander Hybrid--are projected to cost an estimated $1,900 to $5,500 more to own during that five-year period.

The revised figures do not change our message to car buyers that the costs and benefits of hybrids vary significantly, depending on the model, and that consumers should weigh them carefully before buying one. "




http://autos.aol.com/article?id=20051214142109990001



Hybrids: Frugal or Costly?
9 Considerations Before Buying
Bankrate.com

By Terry Jackson

~~
~~

Are hybrids a good buy?
Based solely on the price of a gallon of gasoline, it makes no economic sense to buy a hybrid in comparison to the same vehicle with a gasoline-only engine.

Look at it this way: A Honda Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission carries a sticker price of $20,415. A comparable Honda Civic EX lists for $18,025. That puts the price difference between the two at $2,390.

Using the EPA fuel-mileage numbers, the Civic Hybrid should get, a combined city/highway, 47 mpg. The gasoline-only Civic should get 34 mpg, for a difference of 13 mpg.

Assume you drive 15,000 miles a year. The gasoline-only vehicle will consume 441 gallons in that distance (15,000 miles divided by 34 mpg is about 441). The hybrid will eat up 319 gallons (15,000 miles divided by 47 is about 319). The difference of 122 gallons, costing $2.50 per gallon, means the hybrid will save you $305 a year.

A sticker price differential of $2,390 means it would take almost eight years to break even ($2,390 divided by $305 is 7.8 years). Even if the cost of gasoline goes to $5 a gallon, the 122 gallon difference would save you $610 and it would still take almost four years ($2,390 divided by $610 is 3.9 years) to recoup the extra cost of the hybrid.

And that's a rosy scenario. The real-world numbers right now are even worse, because you can get a better discount off the list price on a gasoline-only Civic, while the Civic Hybrid is commanding near-list price.

What about tax incentives on hybrids?
True, tax breaks will offset some of the higher costs of a hybrid and reduce the time it would take to break even, but not by much.

If you buy one in 2005, the federal government allows a one-time $2,000 tax deduction, which would mean about $500 in the pocket of someone who's in the 25-percent tax bracket.

The highway bill passed recently, by Congress, changes the rules for hybrid vehicles bought between 2006 and 2010. Instead of a deduction, there would be a one-time tax credit of between $250 and $3,400, with the amount based on how fuel-efficient the vehicle is compared to a standard set in the law.

Further complicating matters is language in the bill that limits the tax breaks to only so many hybrids per manufacturer, which could benefit U.S. manufacturers just getting started selling hybrids and mean that the plentiful Toyota hybrids may not qualify after 2007.

Some states, particularly California, are offering their own incentives for going hybrid, including the right to cruise the carpool lane. But, as with the federal tax break, those free passes are limited in number, so latecomers to the hybrid revolution could be shut out.

What's the bottom line?
There are some good reasons to buy a hybrid vehicle. It can be less harmful to the environment, and as more people buy hybrids that will encourage manufacturers to further expand the technology which in time will bring down the cost.

It's also impressive technology, and some of the hybrid vehicles are fun to drive. The Prius also has the added, though subjective, benefit of cutting-edge sedan styling.

For performance junkies, some hybrids offer the added thrill of faster acceleration than their gasoline-only counterparts.

But if the dollars and cents of car ownership are your guiding principle, the hybrid revolution has not reached the point where it makes financial sense.
~~
The gasoline engines in either the hybrid or gasoline-only vehicle should hold up equally -- it's the electric side of the equation that's uncertain. The most pressing question concerns the batteries that are essential to any hybrid. Even high-tech batteries have a limited lifespan when it comes to charging and recharging them.

Generally, the battery packs in hybrids are warranted for eight years or between 80,000 and 100,000 miles depending on the manufacturer. Beyond the warranty period, the manufacturers say they are confident the batteries will last much longer -- perhaps for the useful life of the car.

If you had to replace a battery pack today, and it was not covered by warranty, it would cost $2,000 to $4,000, but so far, no manufacturer has reported selling a replacement battery pack for its hybrid models.



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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Batteries are a particular concern:
This is one thing that doesn't get much discussion but it is of interest to someone about to shell out hard cash:

Of particular concern are the batteries reequired for hybrid cars. They are warranted for 80,000 to 100,000 miles(depending on manufacturer). To replace them today it would cost you from $2,000 to $4,000. When you trade or resell the car this would impact the resale value -- significantly.

Now, just for your information, you have an option you may not be aware of:

Now, you probably are not aware of this but you DO have another way of saving gas consumption and GHG contributions. ALL the domestic car companies are selling Flexible Fuel Vehicles which run on any blend of ethanol fuel and gasoline(think they've sold several million so far). All these FFVs cost NO MORE THAN a regular gasoline car. With FFVs you do not have a lot of new technology and you shouldn't have the same unknowns as regards reliability and maintenance and repair costs as well as insurance costs). Flexible Fuel Vehicles can burn Ethanol85, which is 85% ethanol, which burns cleaner than gasoline and replaces 85% of the gasoline with ehtanol. NOw re Ethanol85, if you don't live in the MIdwest there aren't many stations that sell it (mostly available in MIdWest now, but California is putting on a big push in this area). When you are burning E85 in your FFV you will be cuttiing your gasoline consumption by about 65%. IF you have some E85 stations around a but worry you won't be able to find E85 all the time, the FFVs will run on 100% gasoline just fine. And although, you wont' be able to get a tax credit for your purchase of a FFV - they don't cost any more than a regular gasoline-only car! (and you don't have to worry about replacing very expensive batteries in the future - or what those batteries will do to the resale value of your car.)

Although the big oil companies have been fighting the adoption of ethanol for years, now they are buying it up like mad to use it to replace MTBE - in as short as time as possible. I'm not certain of this, but this will bring all gasoline up to about 6% ethanol right there. Ethanol production capacity currently under construction is 60% greater than the total output of 2005. So the supply of ethanol is going to be increasing rapidly which will make ethanol much more widely available.

Senators Request Investigation into Whether Corporations are Restricting Access to Biofuels

Senators Request Investigation into Whether Corporations are Restricting Access to Biofuels
27 January 2006

Senators Obama and Grassley are requesting that GAO, the watchdog arm of Congress, analyze the current state of refueling stations that dispense alternative fuels like E-85 and B20 biodiesel. The investigation would examine whether any oil companies have policies or practices that directly or indirectly prohibit or discourage the construction, installation or operation of E-85 and B20 fueling pumps.


Because of Big Oil's use of ethanol to replace MTBE the biggest force against the adoption of ethanol has been weakened and I expect demand for ethanol to result in much more availability of this fuel(this has already started with the huge wave of new construction of ethanol plants). And actually, if people call, email Congressmen (www.congress.org) and tell them they think ethanol should be available to everybody, not just those who can afford to buy a new car, the oil companies just might be 'persuaded' to boost ethanol in ALL gasoline from the 6% required to replace MTBE to 10%. 10% ethanol blend can be used in any car that runs on gasoline. Most cars on the road today (excuding diesels) can use this blend! THis would enable everybody to be cutting down on our consumption of gasoline (this would produce a relatively quick 7.5%- 8.0% reduction in Total U.S. gasoline demand - this could be done in a few year (3 to 5 yrs)! Ethanol currently supplants about 3% of the gasoline demand in the U.S.

To put this in perspective, so far about 400,000 hybrid cars have been sold in the U.S. that's about .195%( 19.5 hundredths of 1%). IF these hybrids get on the average, in the real world, 25% better gas mileage than the typical car, that means they are reducing the total consumption of gasoline in the U.S. by - 0.05% ( 5 hundredths of 1%).






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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. John, Do you work for GM?
"AGGGGGHHHH! Toyota is gonna kick our asses with these hybrids, what are we gonna do?"

"ETHANOL, that's the ticket! Couple of quick changes to the fuel systems, and we can keep selling the SOS (Same Old Shit). Plus it make ADM and the Farm Lobby happy."


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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. No, I do not work for GM.
But is my arithmetic wrong? THAts what's important. Remember, we don't want to cut off our nose to spite our face. THe return for ethanol is bigger and much quicker. How long do yo think it will take to get up to 3% of gasoline demand with hybrids, and how much money will that require (at about $5,000 per vehicle)? (THis does not mean I am totally against hybrids, but this technology should be evaluated considering the payoff relative to the investment.)

I am against crop subsidies that go to corporations. THey shoud be stopped. (they werer meant to help out family farmers cope with price fluctuations for crops. Intended to help farmers stay in farming. What the hell do multimilion dollar corporations need this help for? (By the way ADM is number 8 on the list of agri-subsidized companies. As I have said, subsidies for the expanasion and development of worthwhile technologies makes perfect economic sense. Subsidies to mature industries only reflects their political power. Oil & Gas gives 80% to REpubs - or Why We Don't Have an Energy Poilicy. Yeah, lets get rid of all subsidies that have no economic rationale to support them.

Subsidies to oil should also be stopped. IF people saw what oil really costs, we would have started looking into alternaative fuels much sooner. In 1997 the New YOrk Times analysed the Government subsidies for oil (a mature industry) and concluded that if gasoline reflected all the subsidies the price of gasoline would be $5.00 a gallon - in 1997! What is the cost of gas when you consider invading IRAQ?
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Dead_Parrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. "10% ethanol blend can be used in any car that runs on gasoline"
Edited on Tue Apr-18-06 06:08 PM by Dead_Parrot
Including, I would suspect, the Prius...

Alternative fuels and hybrid technology are not an either/or choice: Adding regen braking and batteries/ultra-caps can to done to anything, regardless of what you put in the tank. Personally I'd like to see more people thinking like Saab

edit: for reference, a normal car emits ~170g/km CO2.
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JohnWxy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Yep, you can run ethanol10% in your hybrid ICE too.
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rfkrfk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. MTBE does not need to be replaced
rhe federal mandate that RFG gasoline must
contain oxygen, ends on May 6.

even today, MTBE use in the US is less than 300,000 barrels/day,
compare to 9,000,000 barrels/day for gasoline

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. I think MTBE was a cheap-ass way to turn natural gas into gasoline.
It's probably all about the economics (and profitability!) of extending the gasoline supply.
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htuttle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-18-06 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. Did you see these Vectrix electric scooters?
Edited on Tue Apr-18-06 09:31 PM by htuttle
Looks very nice. I've been driving a conventional gas-powered Bajaj Chetak scooter for a few years (on E10), and wouldn't mind getting one of these one day. An electric scooter with regenerative braking that can go 62 mph! Charges in two hours with a 65+ mile range. Who'd thunk it?
http://www.vectrixusa.com/index2.html



Looks like they'll be available in the US soon (if not now). They are also working on some pretty funky prototypes, including a fuel cell hybrid (with a much longer range), and three-wheeler with two front wheels.

Probably costs a mint though. I got my 2003 Bajaj new for $2,000. As a side note, I wonder how much ethanol I can run in that? It's a four stroke, so I'd imagine I could convert it to E85 or higher if I switch the hoses, seals, timing...blah, what else?

Regarding scooters as a general mode of transportation, my Bajaj goes about 53+ mph (and faster if I got POC pipe exhaust), and I'm quite comfortable driving it on the 55mph county highways around here. No way would I go on the interstate, though. I've found that 99% of the time, I'm just driving around town anyway (I both live and work in the same city) at about 105 mpg.


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