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TEPCO Confirms Reactor 4 Spent Fuel Pool Is Now An Uncontrolled, Open Air Fission Process

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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:40 AM
Original message
TEPCO Confirms Reactor 4 Spent Fuel Pool Is Now An Uncontrolled, Open Air Fission Process
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/tepco-confirms-reactor...

* this is a rightwingy website but their Fukushima coverage has been pretty ahead of the curve

"Some of the spent nuclear fuel rods stored in the No. 4 reactor building of the crisis-hit Fukushima Daiichi power plant were confirmed to be damaged, but most of them are believed to be in sound condition, plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co. said Wednesday." Naturally, in one month we will learn that most of them are damaged, and in two months, that each and every one has been demolished. "The firm known as TEPCO said its analysis of a 400-milliliter water sample taken Tuesday from the No. 4 unit's spent nuclear fuel pool revealed the damage to some fuel rods in such a pool for the first time, as it detected higher-than-usual levels of radioactive iodine-131, cesium-134 and cesium-137."

These confirm an ongoing fission reaction. In a tremendously ironic development, the No. 4 reactor, halted for a regular inspection before last month's earthquake and tsunami disaster, had all of its 1,331 spent fuel rods and 204 unused fuel rods stored in the pool for the maintenance work. Unfortunately, the entire pool ended up being damaged following the quake and the subsequent explosion, in essence nullifying any protection that the containment dome would have provided. As the picture from the Asahi Shimbun below shows, MORE AT LINK - DIAGRAM
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not good
Happy Talk fail

yup
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes, it's hard to keep up with Tepco when they also said things are dandy in No. 4
was that 12 hours before this info on the isotopes was made available? They are great at creating confusion.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. That fact that you're confused does not equal them "creating confusion".
It was the same report.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. There are contradictory reports about No. 4, have been for a while nt
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks, I think... for the update.....even if tentative still.
I've stopped knowing what to say as things just get worse and worse. But, better to know.... :shrug:
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. I'd like to know the readings near No. 4
Since they take their readings driving by in a car they cannot be that accurate..

Articles yesterday had them desperately trying to figure out how to move fuel rods from No. 4
via a crane deemed inadequate.. but they were going to "improvise".

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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. "they take their readings driving by in a car" ?
Did you read your own OP?

This was a measure from water actually removed from the pool... not a driveby.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yes, the readings for near the plants are done from a care
This one was possibly done remotely by robotics if the levels are that high
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. That high?
Do you mean a physical height?

Because a couple hundred becquerels/cm3 isn't exactly something you want to drink... but isn't all that "high". The stuff they were measuring in the turbine building was in the millions and the stuff in the sea water was in the hundreds of thousands.


But yeah... it had to be remotely. The level in the water isn't the only danger.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Lol... just as predicted.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Thanks for not letting me down. :rofl:

For the record... they most certainly did NOT "(Confirm that) Reactor 4 Spent Fuel Pool Is Now An Uncontrolled, Open Air Fission Process"
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Nuclear fission is what is reported by the Japanese News Agency Kyodo News

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/04/85295.html

According to TEPCO, radioactive iodine-131 amounting to 220 becquerels per cubic centimeter, cesium-134 of 88 becquerels and cesium-137 of 93 becquerels were detected in the pool water. Those substances are generated by nuclear fission.


** What do you disagreee with about this report?
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. No... it most certainly wasn't.
** What do you disagreee with about this report?

Not a thing. The error is in the mistaken spin from your OP source. Those substances ARE generated by fission... just as the cesium in the water miles away was "generated by nuclear fission".

That doesn't mean it was generated TODAY by nuclear fission.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. Combined with the extremely high readings from poool 4 and they seem to
have concluded just that
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Those aren't "extremely high readings"
I assure you... just as real fission couldn't be missed and they couldn't possibly hide it... they also wouldn't "conclude" that by releasing a radiation level.

Take a look at all of the iodine level that's been reported over the last few weeks and remember that this is only 1% of what was in those cores. Take an ENTIRE core (in that fuel pool) and let it cool for 3-4 months... you're still going to have LOTS of iodine in there (even with an 8-day half-life).
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Commenton the zh thread re: proof vs. evidence
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 12:37 PM by flamingdem
by trav7777

#1167925




I have maintained since day THREE that the danger here was not reactor cores; in fact I said LET THEM MELT DOWN, they cannot be saved. Spend all efforts on mitigation of SFP rods because there is NO CONTAINMENT for them.

I would not be surprised if sporadic criticality was occurring in these ponds as a result of mechanical displacement of fuel elements plus inclusion of unborated water.
There is argument upthread about silly shit such as "proof." No, this is not proof in the OP, it is EVIDENCE. It is what I said 2 weeks ago, there is EVIDENCE of ongoing criticality here and there, xenon isotopes downpipe, Cl36. If they find Cl36 in the water, there you go.

The heavier than expected isotope concentration is evidence of there having been sporadic criticality at some point. News flash- these events are the accidents which KILL plant workers. Not exposures, not leaks, but criticality accidents due to moving some shit too close to other shit.
The premise is that SFPs have undergone some criticality during the aftermath. It is not dispositive; there is no proof. It is only a theory that tends to fit the facts.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. My comments on the comments.
Edited on Thu Apr-14-11 01:50 PM by FBaggins
I have maintained since day THREE that the danger here was not reactor cores

And he is therefore likely to continue to be blinded by reality in an attempt to claim that he was right from the start. IOW... if something is wrong (and this is), it's wrong regardless of the fact that you've been claiming it since dat THREE.

in fact I said LET THEM MELT DOWN, they cannot be saved. Spend all efforts on mitigation of SFP rods because there is NO CONTAINMENT for them.

And that would have been a disasterous plan. We should all be grateful that it wasn't followed. I'm sure that you've seen reports that the total release of radioactive materials has now bumped fukushima into the same numberical category as Chernobyl? (Not that it means they're truly comparable... but it certainly means that there's LOTS of released material). Did you realize that the VERY large majority of this release has been in the form of water that has leaked from the cores (probably #2 predominantly)?

The pools have always been a potential danger, yes, but one that's much easier to manage (as they've shown).

I would not be surprised if sporadic criticality was occurring in these ponds as a result of mechanical displacement of fuel elements plus inclusion of unborated water.


Obviously he wouldn't. A physicist, otoh, WOULD be surprised. Shocked in fact. While the chances are not EXACTLY zero... they're awfully close to there.

No, this is not proof in the OP, it is EVIDENCE.

It really isn't. It's like saying that finding fingerprints at a crime scene is evidence that you killed someone before anyone even checks to see that they're YOUR fingerprints.

They've been finding these elements in water all over NE Japan and in the ocean... it's such a stretch to find it in water actually on TOP of one of the reactors? If the fuel rods are damaged (with ZERO fission), you would expect to find them... if they aren't damaged at ALL you would expect the levels to be lower... unless some of the water in there came from another source that contained them in higher concentrations. Like... oh... I don't know... seawater that was pumped in there for weeks?
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Yes, these arguments are pretty speculative
so your analysis sounds valid on points. The bigger issue is that speculation has to happen and a lay person can lead a discussion since there is no real transparency or worse no ability to correctly assess things at the plant.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Did you by any chance see the video of pool #4 released over the weekend?
Edited on Mon May-09-11 01:57 PM by FBaggins
Pretty much rubishes the BS of "TEPCO Confirms Reactor 4 Spent Fuel Pool Is Now An Uncontrolled, Open Air Fission Process". Doesn't it? :)

On edit - Can't get to youtube from here... but it should be easy to find if you haven't seen it.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. 40 to 90 CELCIUS is a big change
on NHK - temp in reactor 4 SFP now up to 90 degrees celcisus:



The Tokyo Electric Power Company, or TEPCO, says the water temperature in the spent fuel storage pool at the No. 4 reactor in the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant has risen to about 90 degrees Celsius. It fears the spent fuel rods may be damaged.

TEPCO took the temperature on Tuesday using an extending arm on a special vehicle. It found the temperature was much higher than the normal level of under 40 degrees.
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FBaggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-14-11 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. We don't know how much pumping they've done.
It makes a difference.

Also... your post doesn't demonstrate a 40 to 90 degree change... it says it got to 90 degrees from "much higher than 40".
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-15-11 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
20. Those are fission products
Normally they are contained in the spent fuel inside the outer zirconium cladding. They are leftovers from the fission that previously occurred in all spent fuel rods.

Zerohedge has it very wrong; the nuclides and the concentration seem to show that there is NO ongoing fission process.

The water would be hugely more contaminated if an ongoing fission process were occurring with broken fuel rods.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. It would have other, VERY short-lived isotopes present as well.
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. Why don't we just go ahead and blow the world up while we're at it
The last thing we should do is build anymore of these turkeys anywhere in the world. The first thing that needs to be done is shut the whole lot of them down now.
I was reading earlier that japan is only getting a third of their electrical power from fission so they could manage for a while while they build out alternates, same as us here where we only get at best 20 percent of ours from nukes. It might be a little rough for a while but we'd survive. In the process we'd all be a lot safer.

rec

Thanks for keeping us abreast of whats going on over there.
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-09-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. nuclear turkeys! nt
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