Honda makes two FFVs which get similar mpg on ethanol as with gasoline!! What? This isn't supposed

[Bill USA]

to be possible!

Everywhere I have read about burning ethanol in FFVs it has said you inevitably will get about 35% LESS mile per gallon than when using gasoline (based upon the lower heat value of ethanol) ---- including Dept. of Energy websites!

Here is a press release from Sept 2006 from Honda which indicates they can get about the same miles per gallon on ethanol OR gasoline.

"The new Honda system adapts to different ethanol-to-gasoline ratios by estimating the concentration of ethanol in the ethanol-gasoline mix in the fuel tank based on measurements of exhaust gas concentration in the vehicle’s exhaust system. This provides the flexibility to adapt to ethanol-to-gasoline ratios of between 20% and 100%, while achieving outstanding fuel economy and dynamic performance on a par with a 100% gasoline-powered vehicle."

Their FFVs actually get slightly higher horsepower and torque using ethanol vs when using gasoline. Apparently Honda has figured out somthing our auto manufacturers cannot.

Question? What does Detroit NOT get about adapting their FFVs to ethanol that Honda does? and.. What does the Dept of Energy not understand about using ethanol in an internal combustion engine that Honda does?

If Detroit's FFVs performed like Honda's they would get 54% BETTER fuel economy ( 1/(1-.35))!!


Apparently our auto manufacturers don't realize something Honda does....that if you take advantage of ethanol's higher octane (usually involving higher compression and more spark advance) you can get more power out of ethanol than you can with low octane gas. I thought this would have been known by all engine designers. Hot rodders and racing engine builders have known this for years.


http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060925FlexibleFuelVehicle/">Honda Develops Flexible Fuel Vehicle (FFV) System For Introduction in Brazil in 2006

[HysteryDiagnosis]

1. I wonder if Honda is doing anything like this in order to improve the

performance of their engines... probably not since Coates seems to have this idea patented, but you never know, a little turn here, a little magic there and you have something that is almost not the same as the patented item....



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDsRa4eT7co

[TheWraith]

2. Forgive me if I'm not impressed by a press release.

If every press release about new developments were 100% accurate, we'd long since have cured cancer, discovered cold fusion, and have solar power too cheap to meter. A lot of discoveries never make it out of the lab, simply because they turn out to be impractical for one reason or another. It would be a big discovery if you could build an engine that got 5 times normal fuel efficiency, but if it made a car cost 20 times more, it wouldn't exactly be viable.

[Bill USA]

3. I know what you mean about statements from researchers, and theorists but this is a statement about

an actual existing product which is being exported to Brazil, not something extrapolated from lab results or the 'drawing board'. Plus, it's from Honda ... these guys are good

"A lot of discoveries never make it out of the lab"

A statement released about products being exported to Brazil is a far cry from laughable claims of "cold fusion" made by a couple of chemists.

[Bill USA]

4. Here is Honda Motors Brazil site with specifications for the Civic FFvs

http://www.honda.com.br/automoveis/Paginas/new-civic.aspx

check out the chart you will see it shows power ratings fora the various trim lines of the Civic FFV. I could not find any statement of miles per gallon (but then I can't read Portuguese), but it does show power and torque values for gas and ethanol operation.

Here I pulled out the numbers for power and torque which are the same for all trim levels.

Note that it compares power and torque numbers on gasoline and on ethanol. NOte that as in the link I referenced in OP the figures for both power and torpue are a bit higher for ethanol than with gas. I think given the very similar power and torque numbers there is no reason to not conclude that the fuel efficiency will be very similar too with gasoline or ethanol operation.


Potência (cv x rpm) - Gasolina / Etanol ....... 138 x 6.200 / 140 x 6.200

Torque (Kgf.m x rpm) - Gasolina / Etanol ......... 17,5 x 5.000 / 17,7 x 4.300

[Codeine]

5. From five years ago, no less.

And very little info seems to be available post-2006.