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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 10:20 AM
Original message
The Energy Amplifier reactor
I came across this on the Wikipedia while reading up on the pebble bed reactors. Here's an arcticle from the CERN Courier describing the idea:

http://einstein.unh.edu/FWHersman/energy_amplifier.html


The Energy Amplifier: Carlo Rubbia's solution to world energy demand

CERN Courier, April/May 1995

Even under the heavy burden of responsibility as CERN's Director General from 1989-3 the fertile mind of Carlo Rubbia the scientist was never still. A long-time Rubbia 'hobby' has been the search for new sources of nuclear energy, exploiting knowledge and skills from high energy physics.

An initial objective was to adopt heavy ion techniques to induce controlled thermonuclear fusion, but in 1994 this quest changed direction. Putting the problems of thermonuclear fusion aside, Rubbia began to explore an alternative route to energy production through controlled nuclear fission.

The idea is to use a particle accelerator producing neutrons by spallation (interaction of particles with a target) to feed a fuel/moderator assembly where the neutrons multiply by fission chain reactions. If the energy liberated becomes substantially greater than that needed to drive the accelerator, the process has a net gain and becomes self supporting. Hence the name "Energy Amplifier" (EA).

...


Unlike a reactor, the EA's fission reaction is not self-sustaining: it is sub-critical and needs a continuous supply of neutrons from the accelerator. This makes Chernobyl-type meltdowns unlikely: if the accelerator stops, the-reaction stops too. Another major advantage is that the old dream of using thorium as a fuel is now made possible. Thorium is not itself fissile, but under neutron bombardment can be transformed into highly fissile uranium 233. This fission yields neutrons which, in addition to maintaining the fission chain, in turn regenerate uranium 233 from thorium. This cannot be achieved practically in a normal thermal reactor since the number of neutrons is too small.


This sounds fascnating. Passively safe, and there's plenty of thorium out there...
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. Entirely do-able.
But still has a huge waste issue.

Still, it would be better than having all the lights go out when we run out of oil, I suppose, IF it is handled right.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. This reminds me of a reactor design where
fission was induced by some kind of intense x-ray souce. It was being proposed as a jet engine design, but I assume it could be used as a power plant.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't know nearly enough about it.
Typical concerns are byproducts, what is the process to obtain Thorium like (how damaging?), and what is the total Return on Energy Invested?

I just don't know enough about this one to even guess.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. There seems to be lots more info about this
Edited on Mon Apr-11-05 10:57 AM by drm604
although I haven't read much of it yet. There's a Wikipedia article on it which may or may not be accurate.

A Google search turns up over 700 hits. It certainly sounds promising.

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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-11-05 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
5. These types of subcritical reactors are fairly expensive right now.
Edited on Mon Apr-11-05 08:32 PM by NNadir
The idea is very sound and is being explored thoroughly for what is known as ATW (Accelerator Transmutation of "Waste") type of reactors. In these, the target is transplutonium actinides, chiefly curium. Curium (or other actinide) targets release spallation neutrons and fission, providing additional neutrons for transmutation of problematic nuclei like Cs-135 or Tc-99.

I believe that the Europeans have been seriously considering building such a reactor, but that the cost of a single reactor is approximately 10 billion dollars.

I suppose the marketing of this reactor is to imply that by being subcritical, the reactor is "safer," because a runaway nuclear reaction is not possible. However, the passive safety feature of there being a negative void coefficeint that exists in all pressurized water reactors and boiling water reactors already prevents this. Therefore, it is a huge investment for little benefit. Compare ten billion dollars to a pressurized water reactor (PWR), which can be built for about two billion dollars in countries that, unlike the United States, have a reasonably intelligent populations. Since no one has ever been killed by the operations of a PWR, this is a lot of money to spend for little real effect, essentially eight billion dollars per reactor to satisfy the strange fantasies of people with anti-nuclear religions. When you critically examine these folks, and their firm inability to think clearly, you realize that are not likely to stop inventing silly but scary, albeit extremely improbable "what-if" objections in any case.

Why then, bother? Why not simply build five PWR's?

This article, by the way, is wrong when it implies that Thorium fuel cannot be used in normal critical reactors. ("Another major advantage is that the old dream of using thorium as a fuel is now made possible. Thorium is not itself fissile, but under neutron bombardment can be transformed into highly fissile uranium 233. This fission yields neutrons which, in addition to maintaining the fission chain, in turn regenerate uranium 233 from thorium. This cannot be achieved practically in a normal thermal reactor since the number of neutrons is too small.")

India, which has huge thorium resources, is planning on using thorium based fuel in their copy of the Canadian CANDU heavy water moderated reactor. Under these conditions, the CANDU is a near breeder reactor and huge fuel burn-ups can be achieved.

A Radkowsky type reactor, which is nothing more than a PWR with fuel loading modified to burn weapons grade plutonium and create uranium-233 from thorium-232, is currently operating in Russia. This program was supposed to have participation of the United States under a program enacted by the Clinton-Gore administration for the destruction of surplus weapons grade material. When the theocratic beasts now occupying the United States government usurped democracy, they welched on our part of the bet, sending us further into our spiral toward third world status.

Returning briefly to the subject of the ATW, I note that americium, curium, berkelium and californium may have problematic physics properties when burned in thermal pressurized reactors. If the energy from these elements is to be recovered, one or two ATW would fit the bill. Another option, though, is simply to build fast reactors to minimize the accumulation of these actinides by fissioning even nuclei with fast neutrons. This is a cheaper option and it works quite well. In continously recycled actinide fuel cycled in thermal (PWR and CANDU) reactors, Curium-244 represents almost 18% of the transuranium fuel, and Curium-246 about 12%. In fast cycled reactors, these nuclei represent respectively, 0.3% and 0.03%. (See Stacey, Nuclear Reactor Physics, Wiley, 2001, pg. 234.)

People are willing to spend rather ludicrous amounts to protect themselves from nuclear accidents that in fact don't actually happen. It would be wiser, I think, to address real risks that will save real lives from real dangers. For instance, for the eight billion dollars difference between an ATW and a PWR with passive safety features, one could insure hundreds of thousands of uninsured children. This would actually save real lives as opposed to the ATW effort to save hypothetical lives saved from hypothetical accidents dreamed up by radiation paranoids who can't think straight.


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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks for the response
I knew you'd chime in. You the man :-)

Actually, you've pretty much sold me over the last months on the merits of nuclear power. Unfortunately, I have zero confidence in the NRC's ability to oversee the industry.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-12-05 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thanks for validating the reasons I write here.
Edited on Tue Apr-12-05 05:06 PM by NNadir
I appreciate you telling me that. Reaching one person who thinks is worth putting up with all those who don't.

It goes without saying that energy and energy wastes and by-products impact all people living on the planet.

I am interested in your remarks about the NRC.

While it seems that many people on leftist websites are vaguely (or openly) socialist, I am not. I am a Democrat. In an economic sense, this means to me that I believe in well regulated capitalism, a capitalism in which the needs and rights of humanity at large, including future generations, for whom the planet and its biological heritage must be preserved to the maximal possible extent are balanced with the creativity and inventiveness offered by free enterprise.

It seems to me that if I were in the nuclear business - and you never know, I'm not so old that it couldn't happen - I would be agitating for strong oversight and regulation, if only to protect my interests. (The biggest losers at Three Mile Island were the utility owners who lost a tremendously valuable asset.) Indeed, I am favor of international oversight of the nuclear industry in particular and the energy business in general. Global climate change is bringing home the necessity for such an infrastructure.

We do know that the Bush administration is systematically destroying the infrastructure on which business and the economy depend, and that destruction of the regulatory infrastructure is just one facet of that that irrational and insidious ideologically driven dive into Valhalla.

Still, I am curious, what specific reasons can you give for your attitude about the NRC? Why, specifically, do you not trust them? I have a certain radar about nuclear issues, and since you clearly think, I would appreciate your impressions.
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midnight armadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. The NRC...

I appreciate you telling me that. Reaching one person who thinks is worth
putting up with all those who don't.


Well, with both philosophy (b.s.) and physics (phd) degrees, if I can't be swayed by rational argument with scientific facts I'm in big trouble ;-)

On the NRC... The NRC claims on its web page that its mission is: "...to regulate the Nation's civilian use of byproduct,source, and special nuclear materials to ensure adequate protection of public health and safety, to promote the common defense and security, and to protect the environment."

The problem is, the don't particularly accomplish this. The NRC is one of the federal agencies most beholden to the industry it regulates, and they've made a habit of caving to industry demands over the decades. They're not as bad as the USDA, but they're close. The NRC is not particularly interested in safety, security, or public participation.

Here are some links to illustrate this claim. First, Mothers for Peace:
http://www.mothersforpeace.org/data/2003-07-21MFPInterfaceProblemswithNRC/view

Second, an article from the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists on the failure of the NRC to enforce anti-terrorism security measures:
http://www.thebulletin.org/article.php?art_ofn=mj03hirsch

Third, an article on lawsuits against an NRC rule that prohibits citizen participation in licensing issues:
http://www.whistleblowers.org/html/nuclear_safety.html

Finally, a press release from the UCS on the NRC moving to reopen that Ohio plant that came close to a major accident two or three years ago before the NRC completed its criminal investigation:
http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release.cfm?newsID=349

Then there's the various issues like the re-licensing of reactors that have reached the end of their designed lifetime without adequate safety reviews.
There are many potential problems for public safety and health with any nuclear reactor design. With the chief regulatory agency acting in the interests of the industry, the public goes by the way side. I am fairly convinced that the main reason we haven't had a major accident here in the US, especially with the older, aging plants, is mostly due to dumb luck.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Dumb luck, and good people...
I don't know how this nation can hold together when the ethic of our business and political leaders is to turn all our industries into nineteenth century sweatshops.

Nuclear power plants cannot be safely run by poorly trained people who hate their jobs.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Thanks for your response.
Edited on Wed Apr-13-05 09:00 PM by NNadir
To reiterate my position, I very much believe in strong, independent regulatory bodies. Again, I am Democrat, and as such I believe that regulation, by creating an environment in which "the rule of law," is a permanent presence, makes it easier to do business. In a former time, people in the Western world, in countries where the rule of law was applied, were collectively enriched by the success of business. At the beginning of the twentieth century people's food routinely rotted on hot days. By the end of the twentieth century, most Americans had refrigerator/freezers. This was not accomplished by Vladimir Lenin. It was accomplished by American business. My father, a union laborer with almost no education, actually lived better than Henry VIII.

That said, I would specifically like to address your comments about the NRC in a different light. First of all, however good or bad the NRC is at it's job, the fact remains that it is regulating an industry where people seldom, if ever, die from accidents. Something somewhere is therefore being done right, by whatever mechanism, regulatory or otherwise.

I note that there is a Nuclear Regulatory Commission which oversees, through a series of audits and reporting requirements, all aspects of nuclear operations. These reports are public and are often, as we see here on this website, repeated by Greenpeace types and disseminated in a completely uncomprehending and ignorant way. One hears for instance, about every leak in a weld, every spill of water, every unexpected release of steam, etc, etc ad nauseum. Often completely trivial events become international news. How does this happen? Is it actually the case that nuclear power plant operators, who actually understand the physics of their systems relish the idea of having a scientifically illiterate Greenpeace type lecture them on how irresponsible and dangerous they are?

Now we ask ourselves, is there really a Coal Regulatory Commission? Is the haphazard dumping of millions of tons of waste into the atmosphere, and the cost of millions of lives worldwide in normal operation supposed to be devoid of regulatory oversight solely on the basis of the idea that "everybody does it" and "we're used to it?"

The demand that nuclear power be regulated down to a measurement of the torque on every bolt and the determination of the corrosion of every weld while coal gets a bye is a case, for lack of a better term, "nuclear exceptionalism." At the end of the day, every technological decision has a risk/benefit cost. It does seem to me that people are still thinking that a single life lost by nuclear energy is worth a few million lives lost by other means. Again, nuclear power saves lives. When it starts moving in the direction of costing as many lives as it saves, we will need to re-evaluate it, but I'm not sure that we would serve our culture better by spending more money and more attention to nuclear matters. There are areas that are much cheaper to address for much greater benefit.

Let's turn for a moment to the issue of design life. I am an organic chemist and it has been my privilege to make lots of compounds that never existed before I made them. I once worked on a class of compounds that would have been expected to be decomposed by moisture. We stored them at -20C under nitrogen. There was one flask I forgot about, however, and left sitting on the bench at room temperature for several months before noticing it. It was, in fact unchanged. I now know that almost twenty years later, some of these compounds are still usable.

The designers of nuclear plants in the 1950's and 1960's were similarly asked to estimate the design life of their systems. Being new and untested, they estimated these plants would be viable for forty years. This made their investors at the time happy, and on the other hand, it made nuclear opponents unhappy because, they said (and I know this because I was among them) that nuclear plants have never been demonstrated to have this much of a lifetime. Now, of course, they have.

Many problems in 1950's and 1960's nuclear design have been uncovered of the last decades, alloys that were unexpectedly corroded, or brittle or prone to cracking. Still, for all of these discoveries, only two reactors have failed completely and unexpectedly, both during their first fuel cycle when the people operating them were poorly trained and at best, weakly experienced. Both of these accidents combined have lead to loss of life that when compared to other energy options must, for lack of a better term, be regarded almost as trivial.

The NRC and international nuclear authorities have exhaustively analyzed these accidents and instituted changes in operating procedure and design that have prevented either accident, even in the abysmally designed RBMK's, from ever occurring again. We might quibble with particulars when we place these authorities under a huge inappropriately sized (given the risk) magnifying glass, but the fact is, thus far whatever they have done has worked. We would not be having this conversation at all if any other option, fossil fuels or the much hyped solar energy actually worked. They do not work. Fossil fuels people kill continuously without end, and solar power (with the happy exception of wind power) is too expensive for all but the myopic self satisfied upper middle class.

Two tested and scaled nuclear reactor designs were found to unacceptable, the Magnox type reactor (built in Britain) and, more famously, the graphite moderated reactor of which the RBMK type built at Chernobyl. In spite of Three Mile Island, water moderated and cooled reactors have been validated as a successful design and represent a reason why the environmental abyss did not so clearly arrive until now.

When these reactors were built, materials science was in its infancy. The best computer technology in the world was hardly the equivalent of an ordinary $400 PC. There was no design experience, only design theory. In every case, though, the designs of nuclear plants were the outgrowth of a remarkable and highly successful partnership between government and industry that, in the end, worked. There were misteps and there were errors, but it worked and it is working still. The engineers designed using government information and infrastructure, and their work was evaluated and approved by government technicians who had a close working relationship with industry. In theory we should be able to do better. However, in contrast to the people of the first nuclear age, we have our heads up our asses. We cannot think and we cannot act. We deserve what is coming to us.

As for public consideration of nuclear decisions, I note with increasing despair that our public is completely illiterate. Public participation in public decisions only works when the public is educated and informed. I will bet $50 that you can get 50 times more Americans to tell you what happened on the latest episode of the unreal "reality show" "Survivor" than you can get to explain what plutonium is and what it's properties are. I will bet that you can easily get 80% of Americans to agree with this statement "Nuclear waste is dangerous," though my long experience here and elsewhere has yet to produce a single one among them who can identify a single person who has been killed or injured by the storage of commercial so called "nuclear waste." This is the same crowd that believes that the attack on Iraq was a part of "The War on Terror" and not a part of the "War for Halliburton," the same crowd that sits up at night wide eyed worrying about "nuclear terrorism," in complete indifference to the FACT that the attack on the World Trade Center was an outgrowth of the politics, not of nuclear power, but of OIL. This is NOT a crowd that can or should be trusted with the future. For the record, this crowd, one of the largest assemblages of pathetic idiots ever collected in one country at the same time, is stumbling into a disasterous oblivion.

I hate to be reactionary, but to tell you the truth, the 1950's and early 1960's were in many ways a golden age. In those days practical technical considerations ruled over pat dogma. In those days "partnership" was a practice and not just a marketing term. To be perfectly honest, I am happy their reactors are still working. I trust their intentions, and I trust their insight and creativity. They knew what the fuck they were doing. We don't.
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megatherium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-13-05 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I would be willing to revive nuclear in this country.
Especially if the alternative is coal. But I get the impression that solar is getting closer to being competitive. Solar may be competitive to nuclear (measured over lifetime, cost per kilowatt-hour) in about a decade, if temporary incentives are in place to increase production. This according this months' American Physical Society News (an article by Alvin Compaan, a physics professor at Toledo University).
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