Is China eating America's lunch in regards to the green economy?

[rollingrock]

The New Arms Race
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.

...The Chamber has continued to argue, idiotically, that energy efficiency and independence will somehow put America at a competitive disadvantage with the Chinese. Meanwhile, the Chinese have shrewdly and strategically positioned themselves to steal America's once substantial lead in renewable power. China will soon make us as dependent on Chinese green technology for the next century as we have been on Saudi oil during the last.

Indeed, the Chinese are treating the energy technology competition if it were an arms race. China is spending as much or more on greentech as it does on its military, hundreds of billions of dollars annually on renewable energy and grid infrastructure improvements. Those investments, if not vigorously countered, will effectively erode America's greentech industry leadership and secure China's dominance. China's economic stimulus package, targeted 38% of spending on greentech, as compared to a miserly 12% of the U.S. stimulus program. By 2013, greentech will account for 15 percent of the Chinese GDP. While the United States is projected to roughly triple its wind generation by 2020, China will increase its capacity twelvefold to a wind generating capability more than twice that of America's. And, while the United States is projected to increase its installed solar generation a modest 33% by 2020, China's solar generation is projected to increase 20,000%.

China's investments in solar technology have so powerfully stimulated the growth of a Chinese solar market that Chinese solar panel manufacturers now far outnumber American ones, and they are achieving low-cost production much faster than their American counterparts. Chinese companies are now flooding the American market with cheap Chinese solar panels and devastating the American manufacturing sector that was gearing up to create tens of thousands of U.S. jobs for our own ailing economy. Hundreds of U.S. solar manufacturers now see their prospects as grim. BP Solar, Evergreen, and General Electric have already announced the closing of American-based solar panel factories and outsourcing, primarily to China. America's leading solar manufacturer, Applied Materials, has opened the largest non-government solar energy research facility in the world in China. Of today's ten leading solar panel manufacturers, only one is American. The largest solar panel installation in the United States is a 70,000 panel, 14.2 megawatt array on Nellis Air Force Base in Nevada. The array provides more than 25% of the base's power needs, and saves the Pentagon a million dollars annually in energy costs, but the panels' manufacturer was China's Suntech Power Holdings. Even in the thin film solar market, among the last redoubts of American dominance Chinese businesses are squeezing profit.

Last year, America achieved a milestone, building more wind power generation than all new oil and coal generation combined. We have led the world in wind installations for several years, and the wind industry already accounts for more American jobs than coal mining. At one point the U.S. enjoyed global domination of wind turbine manufacturing with great prospects for job creation. Yet today, of the five leading wind turbine manufacturers, only one is American. While Congress dawdles, China is clobbering us. Shenyang Power Group recently inked a deal to be the exclusive supplier of turbines to the largest wind project in the United States, a 36,000 acre, 600 megawatt development in west Texas. The project will create 2,800 new jobs -- 2,400 in China, but only 400 in the United States. As Lu Jinxiang, chief executive of Shenyang's controlling shareholder noted, "This is just the beginning ... is an ideal target." China is likewise poised to take away our lead in batteries and electric cars, and has already pulled far ahead of America in automobile fuel efficiency.

www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kennedy-jr/the-new-arms-race_b_364211.html

[Braulio]

1. Try breathing Chinese air

I bought me a can of imported chinese air the other day, and it was lousy. So to check it out I sent my daughter to visit China, and she confirmed it's the most polluted country in the known universe.

[rollingrock]

4. What does that have to do with the article?

you sent your daughter to China for the sole purpose of confirming your theory about China's air quality? somehow I find that hard to believe.

[jberryhill]

8. Solar panel manufacturing is not "green" by a longshot /nt

[Dead_Parrot]

10. Interestingly, 99% of China's PV production is exported

At least, such is the gospel according to St. Wiki of Pedia. For their own generation, they're pushing hydro, wind and nuclear.

[rollingrock]

11. It has gotten a lot greener

solar panel manufacturing has come a long way since its early days. but you wouldn't know it from all the propaganda being put out by the oil industry.

[kristopher]

12. The nuclear industry is the one on the attack around here.

[rollingrock]

13. Yeah, that too

nt

[jberryhill]

14. I wouldn't know about oil propaganda...

...since my experience is from my own work in the solar industry.

Solar panels manufacturing has not gotten any cleaner than any other semiconductor fab operation.

[rollingrock]

16. It's a non-sensical argument to make

the manufacturing of ANY industrial product is going to create some pollution. even the manufacture of wind turbines causes some pollution. so you think we should abandon ALL pursuit of alternative energy because they create some pollution in the manufacturing of the equipment? because the only way to manufacture something with ZERO pollution is for society to abandon the modern world altogether and go back to living in the stone age. is that what you are proposing?

the important thing to consider is that in the long-term, far more pollution is created by continuing to burn fossil fuels and the manufacture of the machines that burn these fossil fuels then the relatively small amount of pollution that is initially created by the manufacture of solar panels and wind turbines. but of course, there will always be those who don't seem to have the ability to think beyond the next episode of America's Got Talent.

[jberryhill]

18. Nice bunch of insults....

...which does not alter the toxicity and quantity of organic solvents used in semiconductor manufacture.

I don't know what sort of "argument" you believe is being made here. The OP seems to have a problem with Chinese manufacturing of solar panels. Personally I'd just as soon they poison their groundwater making them in China than us doing it here.

We don't have to make them here.

And, no, not all industrial processes are equal.

[rollingrock]

19. Are you a big believer in 'drill baby drill?'

...because the environmental consequences of drilling for fossil fuels are far more harmful to groundwater supplies than solar panels could ever be. in fact, oil drilling is toxic to all water supplies, above and below ground. rivers, lakes, streams, wildlife, plants, forests, marine life, the air and the environment in general are always devastated in the process of oil drilling and extraction. because of the far-reaching and extremely harmful environmental impact of oil drilling, environmentalists were successful in blocking the drilling of oil in the 20 million acres of the Arctic Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska, for example. Not even Sarah Palin could get them to 'drill baby drill.'

[jberryhill]

20. No

I don't see how you get that out of what I wrote.

I'm a big fan of solar, and worked in that industry for years. I just don't see the problem with panels being made in China.

We get cheap solar, and they get the toxic mess. I'm okay with that.

[rollingrock]

21. Then why were you complaining about it in the first place?

your posts make no sense whatsoever.

[jberryhill]

22. Ah, great, another thread about me

If you take your ADD meds, you'll notice that the OP seems to have a problem with solar panels being made in China, as if that was a "green" industry. My observation was that solar manufacturing is far from green, and I'm perfectly fine with their manufacture in China.

I realize that to you DU is some sort of "first-person shooter" game, but try to follow a thread once in a while.

[rollingrock]

23. Environmental racism

oh, great. just what we needed more of on this site.

congrats! you seem to be quite proud of yourself.

[jberryhill]

24. Sorry, I don't happen to be in charge of Chinese industrial or environmental policy

Now, go find someone else to exercise your moral auperiority over.

[rollingrock]

25. Wrong

American consumers do have a great deal of influence over the policies of the Chinese government. So does the US government. The US government can say to the Chinese gov't 'we won't allow you to import your products into the American market until you clean up your act on the environment and exploitation of labor, which is a human rights issue.' But it refuses to do so. and you as an American consumer say that you're okay with buying stuff from China that is made with sweatshop labor. you as an individual have plenty of control. just stop buying their crap.

[jberryhill]

26. Drill Baby Drill, eh?

So you'd rather import and burn fossil fuels than buy Chinese solar panels?

Make up your mind.

[rollingrock]

27. Uh, neither

the article in the OP stresses the need to produce the solar cells domestically, not in China. you might try reading it sometime.

[kristopher]

28. I don't believe that is true.

It is now more cost effective to recover, recycle and reuse the wastes in the process than to dispose of them. Courtesy of Koch Industries, as much as I hate to admit it.

[joshcryer]

29. Tell that agriculture.

The single biggest polluter above even plastics. We're still cave-men when it comes to agriculture.

[kristopher]

30. the discussion is about the cost effective new recycling systems for waste from solar mfg.

Since on-site recycling chraper than buying the raw stock materials is now more profitable for companies to not dump it.

[leveymg]

2. Wake up call. The longer we put off this investment the shorter the US economy has to live.

Why didn't we put those trillions wasted on paying off foreign lenders on Wall Street into building these plants? We've been sold-out.

[Make7]

3. Design:e2 - China: From Red to Green? (half hour program on Hulu)

 
http://www.hulu.com/watch/23336/design-e2-china-from-red-to-green#x-0,vepisode,1,0
 

[kristopher]

5. The short answer is "Yes". K&R nt

[greennina]

6. Considering their economy can..

so easily be directed in the right direction, of course they're doing better than any of the sloppy, greedy countries. That's why this country, and every other one, needs more economic direction.

[jwirr]

7. You mean sloppy, greedy countries that prefer to live in denial. nt

[joshcryer]

9. We'll see.

Highest growth in the world:



For perspective, these following numbers are per-capita:



The USA may be the only country to actually reduce its emissions:

[Fledermaus]

15. Pumped-storage hydroelectricity

United States
Castaic Dam (1978), 1,566 MW
Edward C. Hyatt (1968), 780 MW
Helms (1984), 1,200 MW
Iowa Hill, (Proposed 2010), 400 MW <12>
John S. Eastwood (1988), 200 MW
Pyramid Lake (1973), 1,495 MW
San Luis Dam (William R. Gianelli) (1968), 424 MW
Cabin Creek (1967), 324 MW
Mount Elbert 200 MW, 1,212 MW
Rocky River and Candlewood Lake (1929), 31 MW
Rocky Mountain Pumped Storage Station, 848 MW
Wallace Dam, Lake Oconee/Lake Sinclair, 4 x 52 MW reversible units - operated by Georgia Power
Koko Crater, Oahu, Hawaii (Proposed)
Bear Swamp (1972), 600 MW
Northfield Mountain (1972), 1,080 MW
Ludington (1973), 1,872 MW
Clarence Cannon dam (1983), 58 MW (pump-back capability tested twice in 1984 and not used since.<13>)
Taum Sauk, 450 MW (pure pump-back; out of operation as of December, 2005)
Mt. Hope, 2,000 MW<20>
Yards Creek Generating Station (1965), 400 MW <14>
Blenheim-Gilboa (1973), 1,200 MW
Lewiston Pump-Generating Plant (Niagara) (1961), 240 MW
Salina Pumped Storage (Grand River Dam Authority) (1971), 260MW
Muddy Run, 1,071 MW
Seneca, 435 MW
Fairfield Pumped Storage (1978), 512MW - fed by Lake Monticello Reservoir
Bad Creek (1991), 1,065 MW - fed by Lake Jocassee
Lake Jocassee (1973), 610 MW
Raccoon Mountain (1978), 1,530 MW
Bath County, 2,772 MW (Worlds Largest)<21>
Smith Mountain Lake and Leesville Lake
Grand Coulee Dam (1981), 314 MW<22>

China
Gangnan, Heibei (1968), 11 MW
Miyun, Beijing (1973), 22 MW
Panjiakou, Hebei (1992), 270 MW
Cuntangkou, Sichuan (1992), 2 MW
Guangzhou I, Guangdong (1994), 1,200 MW
Shisanling, Beijing (1997), 800 MW
Yangzhuoyonghu, Xizang (1997), 90 MW
Xikou, Zhejiang (1998), 80 MW
Tianhuangping (2000), 1,800 MW
Guangzhou II, Guangdong (2000), 1,200 MW
Xianghongdian, Anhui (2000), 80 MW
Tiantang, Hubei (2001), 70 MW
Shahe, Jiangsu (2002), 100 MW
Tongbai, Zhejiang (2006), 1,200 MW
Baishan, Jilin (2006), 300 MW
Huilong, Henan (2005), 120 MW
Tai'an, Shandong (2007), 1,000 MW
Langyashan, Anhui (2007), 600 MW
Zhanghewan, Hebei (2008), 1,000 MW
Yixing, Jiangsu (2008), 1,000 MW
Xilongchi, Shanxi (2008), 1,200 MW
Huizhou, Guangdong (2008), 2,400 MW
Baoquan, Henan (2009), 1,200 MW
Heimifeng, Hunan (2009), 1,200 MW
Fomo, Anhui (2008), 160 MW
Bailianhe, Hubei (2009), 1,200 MW
Pushihe, Liaoning (u/c 2010), 1,200 MW
Xiangshuijian, Anhui (u/c 2011), 1,000 MW
Huhhot, Inner Mongolia (u/c 2012), 1,200 MW
Xianyou, Fujian (u/c 2012), 1,200 MW <9>
Xianju, Zhejiang (u/c 2013), 1,500 MW <10>
Hongping, Jiangxi (proposed), 1,200 MW in phase I, 1,200 MW in phase II, another 1,200 MW is proposed to add to be world's largest <11>
Huanggou, Heilongjianf (proposed), 1,200 MW
Qingyuan, Guangdong (proposed), 1,280 MW
Wendeng, Shandong (proposed), 1,800 MW
Tianchi, Henan (proposed), 1,200 MW
Dongjiang, Hunan (proposed), 500 MW
Fengning, Hebei (proposed), 1,500 MW
Liyang, Jiangsu (u/c 2017), 1,500 MW <12>
Hengren, Liaoning (proposed), 800 MW
Panlong, Chongqing (proposed), 1,200 MW
Tianhuangping II, Zhejiang (proposed), 2,100 MW
Qingyuan, Liaoning (proposed), 1,500 MW
Mashan, Jiangsu (proposed), 700 MW
Shenzhen, Guangdong (proposed), 1,200 MW
Zulaishan, Shandong (proposed), 1,800 MW
Wulongshan, Zhejiang (proposed), 2,400 MW
Wuyuanshan, Jiangsu (proposed), 1,500 MW
Baoquan II, Henan (proposed), 1,200 MW
Zhuhai, Jiangsu (proposed), 1,800 MW
Yongtai, Fujian (proposed), 1,200 MW
Dunhua, Jilin (proposed), 1,200 MW
Yangjiang, Guangdong (proposed), 2,400 MW
Banqiaoyu, Beijing (proposed), 1,000 MW

[excess_3]

17. let China pay for developement .n/t