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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 04:20 AM
Original message
Prius 30-miles-all-electric conversions for sale
obviously, $32K for 30 electric miles is not for everyone, but
..
http://hybrids-plus.com/index.html
hit 'products', for their prices list
..
I have no connection with this company,
could be vaporware.
..
9,5 KWH of energy storage
30 or so miles
..

if true, looks like the feasibility of electric cars
is a matter of only price
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 04:28 AM
Response to Original message
1. I saw something similar on television.....
The problem with original electric cars was that consumers lacked the convenience to charge their vehicles. People like me who live in an apartment with no way to charge such a vehicle. So purposely manufactures began making vehicles that required no plug in. If you are a car enthusiast you know of the existance of the huge aftermarket from hot rods to tuners. In the same manner, the after market took over and developed a kit to add the plug in capability to the current hybrids. There are still several problems, where is the electricity coming from? Today the source is still coal so until we start producing more wind and solar, there may not be that much of a difference between in environmental impact in using gasoline or home electricity.
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razzleberry Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. political independence from OPEC, is the issue
Edited on Wed Oct-17-07 05:37 AM by razzleberry
the oil companies, too

(if this happens, meaning resonable cost sometime in the future)
the best news is that electricity is,
just electricity.
real hard to put a special tax on 'car electricity'
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Check out the
the Tesla car. I saw it on television and you can watch on Google video. It is simply awesome.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. the "electric cars increase need for coal" meme
is a myth.
Electric cars, the vast majority, will be charging at night, off peak.

They will make for more efficient use of currently wasted "spinning reserve"
power. In the medium term, as utilities upgrade their grid to
"smart metering" technolgy, cars will be able to feed electric power back into
the grid at times of need, reducing the need for more
central power plants, and increasing the ability of grids to accomodate
renewables like solar and wind, which are growing exponentially right now.
This will aslo change the economics of car ownership, in that utilities may value this
service so highly, that they will Pay car owners as much as 2-4000 dollars
per year for having their vehicles plugged in.

For more on this issue, google "v2g" - (vehicle to grid)
for insight on a keystone of the emerging alternative,
distributed energy economy.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Where is the off-peak electricity going *now*, if that is the case?
The model for EVs is

Coal -> Chemical energy release -> steam -> electricity -> battery -> traction motor

So what currently happens now in the off peak hours?

Coal -> Chemical energy release -> steam -> electricity -> WHERE?

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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Actually the poster sorta has a point........
It is actually more effiicent to run a plant constantly at a certain output than to bring it down at night. So it wouldn't cost that much more to charge cars at night. Someone has to do a proper fesability study and crunch the numbers before we know for sure.....
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diane in sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Pacific Gas and Electric is pushing P-HEV cars because they have an electriciy excess
at night. It would cost about $.40 a night to charge your car off the grid. Here in N. Cal we get our power mostly from natural gas and hydro shipped in in the winter from Washington and Oregon.
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Ofcourse more coal would be burnt....
Like I said we need to explore alternatives like wind and solar. I actually pay a higher price on my bill to purchase wind power. Yes more coal would be burnt initially but we would also be less dependant on OPEC and consume a smaller amount of oil.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Ok, yes. And EV advocates contend that there is less smog pollution from EVs
...since the emissions can be made cleaner at the power plant than emissions from the tailpipe of a car.

We certainly have to solve the problem of petro-dependency. It breeds Cheneys.

However, I think that we are at an end of how much renewable energy can be generated in my becalmed and cloudy part of the country. Any wind power generation we can muster should be used to displace existing coal fired or other fossil generation. That leaves no excess capacity for automobiles.

I suppose some EV motorists will buy a car and a very big photovoltaic array to go with it. I don't know how one would charge up their car while at work, though.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 06:38 AM
Response to Reply #13
21. wind power can displace coal
the point here is that there is often a point during every
day, usually at night, where demand is much less than
power produced, this is the case with fossil power plants, and
it is often the case with wind.
Using battery vehicles to store this excess capacity is just
one strategy for evening out the peaks and valleys and saving the
power for when it is needed.
Another is for wind generators to store compressed air
underground, and use that to generate power when the wind is not
blowing. There is a good size wind plant being built on this
principle in Iowa right now.
http://www.isepa.com/about_isep.asp
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. the point is that we will not shut down all coal plants simultaneously
we will, even in the best case scenario, be shutting them down
one by one as they wear out or as alternatives come on line.
There are now solar and wind alternatives that store energy and
can provide 24/7 baseload power. Even in the case of
"old fashioned" wind power, V2G allows greater penetration of
the grid by non-constant power sources, up to 50 percent, more
than double what was thought just a few years ago.


We are attacking the fossil fuel problem this way on two
fronts, the electric generating front, by getting much
greater efficiency out of existing fossil plants, and
substituting that for petroleum on the transportation
front.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It might be more cost-effective, but how does it not mean more coal is burned?
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physioex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Opps....
Sorry I meant to reply to your post please look above.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
22. you're already burning the coal, like it or not
spinning reserve is a fact of life for maintaining a grid
with 99+% availability --
with v2g, you can stop burning the gasoline ON TOP of the coal,
and you can avoid the need for new "peaking" power plants
by using the stored power during times of great demand,
ie hot summer afternoons.

It is critical that new power supplies be brought on line,
as quickly as possible, first from wind, because that is
further along, but very soon from solar, in the western
and southern parts of the country, at least.
This now seems much more do-able than it did
just a year or so ago.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. DOE has done the study
I was lucky enough to get invited to give a climate talk at the
Michigan Public Service Commission's Regulatory Summer
program in August, and there were several speakers from the
Electric Power Research Institute, the utility think tank,
there, all discussing the opportunities presented by the
smart grid for integrating electric cars and home
generated power.
------------
DOE has done the feasability study on Vehicle to Grid:
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/12/phevs...

DOE's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory released a report today, that indicates that idle capacity in the existing electric power system could generate most of the electricity consumed by plug-in hybrid electric vehicles. A new study for the Department of Energy finds that "off-peak" electricity production and transmission capacity could fuel 84 percent of the country's 220 million vehicles if they were plug-in hybrid electrics.

Researchers also evaluated the impact of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, or PHEVs, on foreign oil imports, the environment, electric utilities and the consumer.

The study presumes that drivers would charge up overnight when demand for electricity is much lower and that the cars would be driven 33 miles per day, the national average.

"This is the first review of what the impacts would be of very high market penetrations of PHEVs," said Eric Lightner, of DOE's Office of Electric Delivery and Energy Reliability. "It's important to have this baseline knowledge as consumers are looking for more efficient vehicles, automakers are evaluating the market for PHEVs and battery manufacturers are working to improve battery life and performance." Lightner also noted that "the study suggests the idle capacity of the electric power grid is an underutilized national asset that could be tapped to vastly reduce our dependence on foreign oil."
------------
more here:
http://www.udel.edu/V2G /
http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=227
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I don't think coal is the ONLY source of electricity....
PNW has lots of hydro. Here in SoCal we have coal PLUS hydro PLUS a bigger % of wind and solar than anywhere else in the US.....

http://www.ladwp.com/ladwp/cms/ladwp008158.pdf
"....LADWPs production of coal power is expected to decrease from 50% of its energy mix in 2005 to 32% in 2010. Additionally, actual capacity ratings of coal power resources will decline from 24% in 2005 to 18% in 2010...."
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Hydroelectric plants bank their extra energy in the off peak hours
I don't believe that there is an excess supply of stored water in the reservoirs that can be used to charge up EVs. If there was extra water, the generating companies would have build more turbines and alternators to make use of it.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. Now, now, now - no changing the subject here. Your complaint was
about coal and how EVs and plug-ins would just lead to more coal burning.

:spank:
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. You brought up hydro
and there are no further hydro resources.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 06:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. definition of spinning reserve
Spinning reserve is any back-up energy production capacity which is can be made available to a transmission system with ten minutes' notice and can operate continuously for at least two hours once it is brought online.

Non-spinning reserve is generating capacity which is capable of being brought online within 10 minutes if it is offline, or interrupted within 10 minutes if it is online, and which is capable of either being operated or interrupted for at least two hours.

Spinning is derived from hydroelectric and combustion turbine terminology. Reserve generator turbines can literally be kept spinning without producing any energy as a way to reduce the length of time required to bring them online when needed.

http://www.energyvortex.com/energydictionary/spinning_r...
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. turbines spin, no power produced
Spinning is derived from hydroelectric and combustion turbine terminology. Reserve generator turbines can literally be kept spinning without producing any energy as a way to reduce the length of time required to bring them online when needed.

http://www.energyvortex.com/energydictionary/spinning_r...
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
23. Takes alot more fuel to generate than to spin reserve
Holding at only spinning reserve is like sitting in a car turning 3000RPMs with the clutch pushed in. Takes very little throttle to hold 3000RPM with no load than to drive down the highway at the same RPM. And the more likely scenario is the reserve made up of the generating plant running at a fraction of it's maximum rated power with the difference between actual and rated maximum being the spinning reserve. This would be analagous to a car on a level highway at 55MPH. When it starts climbing a hill (or you charge an EV) more throttle(fuel) is required.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Very good illustrative analogy
Now, extending from that concept, it is going to take additional coal to create electricity in the off-peak hours.
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greenman3610 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 08:55 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. DOE Study: net reductions in greenhouse gases
plus increased opportunity for introduction of renewables.


-----------------
The study also looked at the impact on the environment of an all-out move to PHEVs. The added electricity would come from a combination of coal-fired and natural gas-fired plants. Even with today's power plants emitting greenhouse gases, the overall levels would be reduced because the entire process of moving a car one mile is more efficient using electricity than producing gasoline and burning it in a car's engine.

Total sulfur dioxide emissions would increase in the near term due to sulfur content in coal. However, urban air quality would actually improve since the pollutants are emitted from power plants that are generally located outside cities. In the long run, according to the report, the steady demand for electricity is likely to result in investments in much cleaner power plants, even if coal remains the dominant fuel for our electricity production.

"With cars charging overnight, the utilities would get a new market for their product. PHEVs would increase residential consumption of electricity by about 30 - 40 percent. The increased generation could lead to replacing aging coal-fired plants sooner with newer, more environmentally friendly versions," said Kintner-Meyer.

"The potential for lowering greenhouse gases further is quite substantial because it is far less expensive to capture emissions at the smokestack than the tailpipe. Vehicles are one of the most intractable problems facing policymakers seeking to reduce greenhouse gas emissions," said Pratt.

http://www.pnl.gov/news/release.asp?id=204
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 09:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Yes. But it still means more coal is burned
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One_Life_To_Give Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-17-07 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. A full battery charge would take around 2KW of solar
For those of you in the SouthWest you could bring the batteries from 0 to 9.5KWH with a 2KW solar PV array once a day. Granted you would have to park the car all day at the array. Or more likely store the energy in another battery at the house and use it to charge the car when you get home. Installed your looking at around $20,000 and then never having to buy gas if you stay within the 30 mile range.
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
26. This is awesome.
A large % of people drive 30 miles or less per day. This means that in places like CA, where a good portion of electricity is non fossil fuel driven, people can get more off foreign oil.
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losthills Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-18-07 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
28. It's obvious that a transition to electric cars
will reduce our consumption of oil. And the co2 that is produced not only from the tailpipe, but by transporting all that oil across the ocean on diesel powered ships, refining it into gasoline, and trucking the gasoline all over the country in diesel trucks.

It would seem that the nuances of how we charge the batteries are negligible compared to that reduction in co2 emissions.

Meanwhile, we can be working on getting coal out of the electricity generating loop by all the means we have at hand...
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